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Post by venge on Mar 19, 2020 4:09:20 GMT -6
mike , ok, those are great points. I would say my agreeing with neural on the Pharisee had to do more with their seeking Messiah yet not able to understand Him right in front of them because of preconceived notions of what it would look like. Funny, though, were they brutalizing/abusing people? whatever sins they were wrapped up in, were these sins worthy of criminal prosecution of Pharisee leaders? Were any in jail over their behaviors? Would a laymen be able to call them brood of vipers to their faces? Is it because all these bad behaviors were hidden from the people? So, sure, they were inherently evil, not practicing what they were preaching. Can we say that TODAY we have the same issues with many a church leader? Is there a difference now because of grace? Because sin is sin, yet the believer has been washed, right? Two topics forming here it seems. and we have labored over the topic of Grace vs. Works, just ask socal... Getting back to Pharisee attitude. Yep, agreed they had evil in their hearts, evil being two-faced hypocrits. Not maybe evil because they weren't physically murdering people in the streets, but evil in their hearts, while outwardly displaying righteousness. Yet I will still stand by this: that they had a preconceived idea of what Messiah would be and that is why they were blind to His coming. This I think is what neural's overall point is and for us seeking more understanding as the end comes near, that we not fall into a similar trap. Am I right, neural , ? as to the corpses and where the eagles are, I have been in studies on this, but cant recall the interpretation. However, it has been considered by me that because of this parable: “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
25“But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.
26“But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.
30‘Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”
Later it gets explained,
38and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; 39and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. 40“So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41“The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness...… 43“Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
In both the parable and the explanation, the TARES are removed, the stumbling blocks are removed FIRST, gathered OUT of the Kingdom. (Where? Perhaps to the "outer darkness" of the Temple court?)
So when it says one taken the other left, I am leaning toward the one LEFT BEHIND is the son worthy of the Kingdom, not the evildoer... Because He is going to establish His Kingdom ON EARTH, as it is in heaven..
barbiosheepgirl, I’d add that since the wicked are removed out of his kingdom, he must be reigning. This would place wicked men in the millennium kingdom to be removed out of it so that only righteousness survives. This is specifically the reason I place the bowl’s in the millennium kingdom. If Christ reigns at the 7th Trumpet, the inauguration of his kingdom begins prior to the removal of all wicked from it. Not the other way around. That would obviously mean the bowls are not part of the 70th week or the 3.5 years. I realize that differs from some here, but this is how I understand it. If it’s his kingdom, he is reigning. The harpazo itself is interesting. I think we focus much on “going up” rather then meeting Christ. If he is departing heaven to earth and we go to meet him halfway...where is he going? Back to heaven? He is God. He could summon us directly there. But he left heaven to return and we meet him where Satan once controlled “the air”. If Christ and we meet where Satan once was called prince of the power of the air and god of this world...is he still roaming at this point or is he sealed? On bodies, I don’t know whether we leave our mortal bodies or not. If the dead rise first, they have no body. Some are burned, decapitated, eaten by animals, decomposed. I don’t think we need them. I can’t see us vanishing as bones of the dead saints don’t vanish. Why would my bones vanish? I’d think our bodies stay here like bags of meat and we rise. |
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Post by mike on Mar 19, 2020 6:00:48 GMT -6
I chuckled here vengeI have 'no skin in the game'  but if our bodies stay how do we reconcile: - 1John 3:2 Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is.
- John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
John 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. - John 21:13 Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish likewise. 14 This is now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead.
- Luke 21:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them [his] hands and [his] feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? 42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took [it], and did eat before them.
Or maybe He's not the same as He was when He ascended or will be changed when He comes/call us? Perhaps His body was natural in appearance for the benefit of the disciples and for our biblical writings? |
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Post by venge on Mar 19, 2020 6:51:23 GMT -6
I chuckled here vengeI have 'no skin in the game' but if our bodies stay how do we reconcile: - 1John 3:2 Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is.
- John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
John 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. - John 21:13 Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish likewise. 14 This is now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead.
- Luke 21:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them [his] hands and [his] feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? 42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took [it], and did eat before them.
Or maybe He's not the same as He was when He ascended or will be changed when He comes/call us? Perhaps His body was natural in appearance for the benefit of the disciples and for our biblical writings? I understand Mike. But how do we reconcile the dead rising? We are given new bodies in the twinkling of an eye. The dead whose bodies decomposed almost 2k years ago rise. So I don’t see the need for flesh to rise. I do think that we may be seen though. The 2 witnesses that die are seen rising by the multitudes. So I suppose it’s possible. I don’t have a concrete answer but only guesses on it. There are more questions than answers. What is it to be like the angels? Seen to some, unseen to most? Immortal and not fleshly. Do we change on the ground or in the air? I know none of this matters. It’s more of an interesting topic, but one can’t help but wonder at all mysteries. |
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Post by mike on Mar 19, 2020 10:34:24 GMT -6
venge said: That is something I've contemplated quite a bit, but since I cannot understand, I got back to the verses I previously mentioned so I do not make myself nuts. Something I truly pondered was a thought that the world wouldnt even notice we were gone. But how? Is the rapture ethereal or would there be a global quarantine? And down the rabbit hole I would to end back 1John 3:2 again (BTW - I really like the next verse 1John 3:3) The two witnesses I've always thought that since they were dead only 3.5 days they wouldnt be decomposed. However (Rev 11:9-10) I can also imagine that those rejoicing would not necessarily be kind to their dead bodies for those 3.5 days, therefore there could be some dismembering or other vile actions on their flesh... Angels are distinctly different than we are, though they often manifest in human form. Matt 22:30 - when the resurrection occurs we will be "like" the angels
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neural
Truth Seeker
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Post by neural on Mar 19, 2020 13:52:05 GMT -6
The harpazo itself is interesting. I think we focus much on “going up” rather then meeting Christ. If he is departing heaven to earth and we go to meet him halfway...where is he going? Back to heaven? He is God. He could summon us directly there. But he left heaven to return and we meet him where Satan once controlled “the air”. If Christ and we meet where Satan once was called prince of the power of the air and god of this world...is he still roaming at this point or is he sealed? I want to point out something I came across that touches on this subject. In Mark 13:24-27, we see first a marker (verse 24) that shows the following verses (25 through 27) are something that takes place *after* the tribulation, at the 2nd Coming. "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light," Then, in verse 27 (KJV), we see: "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." Then, in Matthew 24:31, we see: "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." In the NASB: "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other." In the ESV: "And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Theory (which of course will be controversial. it wouldn't be me if it wasn't) 1st Thessalonians 4:17: "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." I'm going to pose thatt "and so shall we ever be with the Lord" is a statement that from that point onward, we are going to be with Jesus, but that it does *not* define the location. Like saying "I met my bride in the church for our wedding, and we were together thereafter". It does not explicitly mean that you spent the rest of your life with your bride in that church. With that in mind, I'd like to also pose that the dead in Christ rise first, and then those who are alive and remain are caught up with them, transformed, and then meet the Lord "in the air" literally. As in above the earth but in the atmosphere, and that we observe the tribulation "from above". Then, when Jesus returns, we are all gathered "from the four winds" "from one end of the sky/heaven to the other", and ride with Him to victory. While this sounds a bit odd, it does answer one of the questions I've had for many years, and that is why we were given a good portion of Revelation, specifically the scenes in heaven. If we're going to be with Jesus at a feast or 7 year vacation of some sort, the goings on of the throne room are not relevant to us, and not really relevant to the people left here on earth. But we are given prophecy so that when it is fulfilled, it will strengthen our faith. Now I realize that it seems illogical that after we are raptured that our faith would need to be strengthened, but perhaps one could say that it is God being faithful to us, and showing us directly how His plan unfolds? edit: side note to the admins: It seems that there is a bug with the BB Code that randomly throws in an anchor tag when editing a bit of text be bold/italic/etc. that doesn't show in the preview window, but only pops up when the post is pushed to live. |
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Post by fitz on Mar 19, 2020 14:05:38 GMT -6
Just to clarify my position on this...I believe our transformation follows the pattern of Jesus. His mortal body was changed, glorified. He had a physical body after the Resurrection, bearing the scars and he allowed (encouraged) his disciples (i.e. Thomas) to to touch him. He also ate food (fish). Most importantly, the tomb was empty! So likewise, when we are transformed, it is this body of flesh that will be changed, glorified, just as was Jesus' body. There is no body (corpse) left on earth because our glorified bodies are like His.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Mar 19, 2020 15:28:00 GMT -6
fitz , yes there are the throne room scenes, which is kinda cool for various reasons: To explain or verify the legality of Kingship and Heir attained by Christ (first born son, and ruler) and also the Right of Judgement (legal-eze stuff/He being fulfillment of the law). And then we have a picture of the Priesthood, and many of the vision is what is going on with the creation (man included) on earth, from the heavenly perspective of what is going on in and outside His Temple. Lots of cool stuff! Has anyone noticed that the dead in Christ RISE, and those who remain are changed? It think there is a slight difference since flesh and blood no longer really exists in a long been dead body, even cremated body. Flesh and Blood do not inherit, but since we did not have our blood stopped moving by death, perhaps those remaining experiencing the "change" in another way for various purposes. Mortal puts on immortality. and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. (1Cor 15)
The word put on here is referring to like putting on a cloth. And the word for imperishable is like saying incorruptible, unending existance. Think about that. Those who perished, put on imperishable, those ALIVE put on immortality, which is freedom from death. They don't use the same words for both parties. so is there a difference? If we don't DIE anymore, does that mean we are not visible? Jesus appeared to many before ascension. I am under the thoughts these days that those alive do not disappear...necessarily.
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Post by venge on Mar 20, 2020 5:03:28 GMT -6
The harpazo itself is interesting. I think we focus much on “going up” rather then meeting Christ. If he is departing heaven to earth and we go to meet him halfway...where is he going? Back to heaven? He is God. He could summon us directly there. But he left heaven to return and we meet him where Satan once controlled “the air”. If Christ and we meet where Satan once was called prince of the power of the air and god of this world...is he still roaming at this point or is he sealed? I want to point out something I came across that touches on this subject. In Mark 13:24-27, we see first a marker (verse 24) that shows the following verses (25 through 27) are something that takes place *after* the tribulation, at the 2nd Coming. "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light," Then, in verse 27 (KJV), we see: "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." Then, in Matthew 24:31, we see: "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." In the NASB: "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other." In the ESV: "And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Theory (which of course will be controversial. it wouldn't be me if it wasn't) 1st Thessalonians 4:17: "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." I'm going to pose thatt "and so shall we ever be with the Lord" is a statement that from that point onward, we are going to be with Jesus, but that it does *not* define the location. Like saying "I met my bride in the church for our wedding, and we were together thereafter". It does not explicitly mean that you spent the rest of your life with your bride in that church. With that in mind, I'd like to also pose that the dead in Christ rise first, and then those who are alive and remain are caught up with them, transformed, and then meet the Lord "in the air" literally. As in above the earth but in the atmosphere, and that we observe the tribulation "from above". Then, when Jesus returns, we are all gathered "from the four winds" "from one end of the sky/heaven to the other", and ride with Him to victory. While this sounds a bit odd, it does answer one of the questions I've had for many years, and that is why we were given a good portion of Revelation, specifically the scenes in heaven. If we're going to be with Jesus at a feast or 7 year vacation of some sort, the goings on of the throne room are not relevant to us, and not really relevant to the people left here on earth. But we are given prophecy so that when it is fulfilled, it will strengthen our faith. Now I realize that it seems illogical that after we are raptured that our faith would need to be strengthened, but perhaps one could say that it is God being faithful to us, and showing us directly how His plan unfolds? edit: side note to the admins: It seems that there is a bug with the BB Code that randomly throws in an anchor tag when editing a bit of text be bold/italic/etc. that doesn't show in the preview window, but only pops up when the post is pushed to live. neural, Do you see these 4 winds as descriptive- compassing the whole world. Ie. North, South, East and West -or- Do you see these 4 winds as the 4 winds that strive over the great sea found in Daniel 7:2 Perhaps they are both? The winds act as agents promoting change in the nations of the world and they come from heaven. What I’m trying to understand is how does the elect get from kingdoms of the world they are scattered in and being gathered Edit: check out what Benson says: biblehub.com/commentaries/zechariah/6-5.htm |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2020 14:13:37 GMT -6
Are we going to have our scars, too? Or do you think they remained so that Christ could prove his identity?
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Mar 25, 2020 13:13:29 GMT -6
boymaker, That's a thought. Maybe it is all our scars before the age of 33... Recall that movie where the little boy had been dead and then was revived and had walked with Jesus? I am not sure how true the story is and I would hate that a person would make up stuff in the name of Jesus only to be found a fraud,,, and sadly that does happen.. anyway, the little boy identified his grandpa. And did so by a picture of his grandpa as a younger man. But our flesh and blood is going to be changed, and like Christ it can appear to be like a certain way and is tangible but is "different".
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Post by kjs on Mar 25, 2020 18:35:24 GMT -6
boymaker , That's a thought. Maybe it is all our scars before the age of 33... Recall that movie where the little boy had been dead and then was revived and had walked with Jesus? I am not sure how true the story is and I would hate that a person would make up stuff in the name of Jesus only to be found a fraud,,, and sadly that does happen.. anyway, the little boy identified his grandpa. And did so by a picture of his grandpa as a younger man. But our flesh and blood is going to be changed, and like Christ it can appear to be like a certain way and is tangible but is "different". The movie was called Heaven is for real... I think the book is better (same title). the book brings out several things that at least makes your think, that something had to happen, cause no little child could make stuff up. The one that got me was he said that he had two sisters, and his mom no you only have one sister... And he says no the sister that died in your tummy. She asked if she had a name, and he replies no cause you did not give her one. if that is a true story ... I think that is powerful evidence showing there is something after this life ... What 5 year old is going to make up a story of having a sister.... |
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but if our bodies stay how do we reconcile:
