Speculation/conjecture/food-for-thought

mike, You are correct in the questions. I am simply pondering the current situation.

I come from the perspective that the church is so incredibly off course today, that we need to look at everything we have been taught and consider that it may be distorted.

I will wait in silence a moment while some folks finish exploding over the implication there...

....

The most important thing is having a rock solid foundation for which to look at things from. That foundation, for me, is Grace. If someone says "well, you have to be baptized...", the first reaction for me is to think "does this match up with Grace? Does *not* getting baptized fall in line with blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?" The latter question there is a really big one. For it is only that sin that Jesus stated was the singular unforgivable sin. All else is covered by His blood and His sacrifice.

So, using my "Grace colored glasses", I began to look at everything I had been taught throughout my life. 7 days creation, works, once saved always saved, gap theory, baptism, rapture (pre, mid, post, etc.), prophecy, and on and on.

What I have found is that every one of us can easily be ensnared into being pharisees.

The Pharisees of Jesus day were not necessarily inherently evil people. They just knew how the Messiah would appear, and were so sure and set in their faith that they killed Him when He *didn't* appear as they just knew he would.

So, I ask questions. I ponder. I think these things through. I pray and seek wisdom from God on what the truth is.

1st Corinthians 15:35 I believe has quite a bit to say. "that which thou sowest" pertains to what the farmer puts into the ground. The seed. "is not quickened" is pretty clear in that it means that when you plant a seed, it is not the seed which pushes forth from the soil, but something completely different, yet *of* the seed. "And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain.." I believe this is a reiteration/clarification of what was previously said. What you plant into the ground does not in any way resemble that which comes up. To relate this to the sinful husk we are temporarily anchored to, what goes into the ground (when we are buried, cremated, etc.), is not what will come out of the ground. What comes out is what God cultivates.
This is, of course, not a 100% guaranteed-to-be-right interpretation of that verse, but is a possible interpretation.
Every aspect of our physical representation is poisoned with sin. Every cell in our body. If we're honest with ourselves and look at biology, some of the very features of our body are comprised of cells that are dead. Fingernails for example.

Again, I'm not arguing that our bodies going with us in the rapture is impossible. I'm simply posing that *IF* we have interpreted things incorrectly, and *IF* our bodies are left behind, we are quickly going into a scenario that would allow the globalists and the anti-Christ to hide the fact that the rapture happened at all (which would be a boon for them in that many non-Christians would simply believe people died of the flu, not vanished mysteriously making them wonder if maybe those crazy Christians *were* right).

neural said The Pharisees of Jesus day were not necessarily inherently evil people. They just knew how the Messiah would appear, and were so sure and set in their faith that they killed Him when He *didn't* appear as they just knew he would.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What about this by Pual: 50Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

I left out certain things to focus on the topic here.  The dead have their transformation.... those alive have their transformation.


Yet, I do wonder that the body being left is because of this passage:
27“For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28“Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

This spoken word of Jesus is contained in Matthew and Luke namely, and one must be prayerful to understand what is being said here.  I can't tell you what is being said regarding the corpse.  Yet, I can say, our flesh will be changed, according to the account in the Corinth letter.  And, when it says we will meet in the air, the word for this air is the area from above the soil to where airplanes can fly, not outer space. That is how I perceive it.  you are free to disagree with me on that. 

I just encourage those a reminder of how Jesus wanted us to pray:  Our Father who is in Heaven, Holy is His NAME.  His Kingdom is coming, His WILL will be done on EARTH...  ON Earth, everyone, AS IT IS IN HEAVEN, which means His Will was accomplished there!!  So Spiritual will manifest on physical earth as it is in the heavenly realm. This is our Hope!!! For today in this age, we ask Him to give us His daily sustenance,  and forgive us our sin debt against Him, and we also do the same to those against each one of us, and ask Him to lead us not to temptation but deliverance.  Deliver us from evil. For HE and The Lord God are the power and the glory and the Kingdom ruler for ever and ever.

barbiosheepgirl, Two of the gospels cover the statements Jesus made regarding "just as lightning flashes in the east and is seen in the west." I have been struggling with trying to resolve their meaning, because they each bring light to a differnt part of the message, and they each have some very strong differences depending on the translation you read.

Matthew 24, and Luke 17 have overlapping information. With Mathew, it starts in Mathew 24:27 "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
With Luke, it starts in Luke 17:24 "For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day."

Matthew 24:28 then immediately says "For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together." It should also be noted that some translations use the word "vultures", but the original greek uses the word "aetoi" which, according to Strong's means Eagle *or* "bird of prey".

Luke, however, goes through verses 25 through 36 before you get to verse 37 "And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."

This is where, to me, it gets *very* interesting, and things branch out a bit.

The deciples were asking Jesus a question. "Where, Lord?"

Luke 17:34-36 are the verses in which pastors often refer when talking about the rapture.
From the NASB:
"34 I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left. 36 [[v]Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left.”] "

So Jesus has said three times that between two people one is taken, and one is left, and it is *this* that the deciples are asking Jesus "Where, Lord?".
They're asking Jesus where the ones who are taken, are taken to!
Suddenly the meaning of "Aetoi" becomes VERY important! For if it means to imply birds which feast on meat, then..who exactly was it that was taken?!

Also, you will note that I used the NASB. This was deliberate as it avoids a very interesting branch/rabbit-trail that I came across in the KJV.

Here is the KJV translation:
Luke 17:34-36 "34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."

Note that He said "two MEN in ONE bed". That is a very odd translation indeed. According to Strong's, the word "dyo" is used and is a masculine noun, but when it says "one shall be taken and one left" the words shown in the interlinear are "mias" and "heis", though both point to Strong's 1520, which is "heis" and means "one". The distinction between "mias" and "heis" is, again according to Strong's, that one is masculine, and one is feminine.

I am still completely unsure about this, but it also points out how important it is to understand translations. The translation of the greek to the KJV says there were two *men* in one bed, but other translations merely say it is "two" and leave "people" as an implied word.

I digress. I thought originally that in Matthew, the reference to the eagles/vultures was a description similar to the lightning. When there is a body in the wilderness, you can see from a long distance where it is because of how birds of prey circle high in the air above the corpse, but the additional information in Luke brings more perspective to the statement.

mike ,

ok, those are great points. I would say my agreeing with neural on the Pharisee had to do more with their seeking Messiah yet not able to understand Him right in front of them because of preconceived notions of what it would look like. 

Funny, though, were they brutalizing/abusing people? whatever sins they were wrapped up in, were these sins worthy of criminal prosecution of Pharisee leaders? Were any in jail over their behaviors?
Would a laymen be able to call them brood of vipers to their faces?
Is it because all these bad behaviors were hidden from the people?

So, sure, they were inherently evil, not practicing what they were preaching. Can we say that TODAY we have the same issues with many a church leader? Is there a difference now because of grace? Because sin is sin, yet the believer has been washed, right? Two topics forming here it seems. and we have labored over the topic of Grace vs. Works, just ask socal...


Getting back to Pharisee attitude.  Yep, agreed they had evil in their hearts, evil being two-faced hypocrits. 

Not maybe evil because they weren't physically murdering people in the streets, but evil in their hearts, while outwardly displaying righteousness. 

Yet I will still stand by this:  that they had a preconceived idea of what Messiah would be and that is why they were blind to His coming.  This I think is what neural's overall point is and for us seeking more understanding as the end comes near, that we not fall into a similar trap.  Am I right, neural , ?

as to the corpses and where the eagles are, I have been in studies on this, but cant recall the interpretation.  However, it has been considered by me that because of this parable:
“The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
25“But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.
26“But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.
30‘Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”
Later it gets explained,
38and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; 39and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. 40“So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41“The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness...…  43“Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

In both the parable and the explanation, the TARES are removed, the stumbling blocks are removed FIRST, gathered OUT of the Kingdom.  (Where?  Perhaps to the "outer darkness" of the Temple court?)

So when it says one taken the other left, I am leaning toward the one LEFT BEHIND is the son worthy of the Kingdom, not the evildoer... Because He is going to establish His Kingdom ON EARTH, as it is in heaven..

It does seem with the global quarantine growing, it is already making a perfect setup for strong delusion. When believers disappear, "social distancing" will keep the news from spreading quickly.

Since I was the smallest child, I've understood that our bodies of flesh are to be transformed, and there is not a single trace left of us when we vanish.