|
|
Post by delo63 on Jul 17, 2017 7:18:51 GMT -6
I think this proves the timing atleast to me that the sixth seal and the rapture happen simultaneously. The earthquake described in the 6ht seal could be caused by the fallen angels being slammed down to earth. I believe the rapture happens at the same time.
I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.
Revelation 12:7-12, Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11
They triumphed over him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
12
Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.”
|
|
|
|
Post by delo63 on Jul 17, 2017 7:20:25 GMT -6
|
|
|
|
Post by yardstick on Jul 18, 2017 15:49:23 GMT -6
The YouTube channel "God's roadmap..." Has some interesting theories that may or may not pan out. one interesting point made was during the crucifixion there was a three hour eclipse.... Plus several major earthquakes Now granted God is so powerful He could cause both things to happen without the need of another planet or comet to do the work, but if He allowed such a thing to exist, I assume it is plausible these mysterious elements could be used over and over again. So if there is something mysterious out there, it could indeed match up with one of still missing signs such as the red dragon. now one thing I still do not have an handle on is Revelation 12:4 - which clearly states 1/3 of the stars are being flung to the earth..... if this verse is to be read literally --- then there is going to be some physical damage to the earth..... If we assume that the 1/3 are fallen angels then there may not be physical damage but spiritual damage..... I believe it is not uncommon for literal prophecy to have a representative celestial equivalent (Giza Pyramid mapping, Rev 12:1-2, et c.). I am currently of the opinion that the Draconids meteor shower on Oct 7-9 would celestially represent the casting out of Lucifer and his followers. It is in the right time-frame. Also, a typical eclipse from a fixed point on earth lasts (as i understand it) about 7-8 minutes. A multi-hour eclipse, if celestial in origin would strongly suggest a body - not the moon. Hence, the calculations above, to give a grasp of the size the body would have to be; and of course, it's path through the heavens would suggest a further distance than the moon, because it takes longer than the moon does to eclipse the sun. Off-the-cuff math assuming a ratio of time to distance, and using the perigree and apogee values for the time ratios for the moon (362,600km/7mins and 405,400 km/8mins) = X distance/180 minutes (3 hour eclipse) gives a distance range of: 9,121,500km to 9,324,000km I will try to post a calculation of the diameter of the object based upon these distances tonight. |
|
|
|
Post by yardstick on Jul 18, 2017 21:01:12 GMT -6
The YouTube channel "God's roadmap..." Has some interesting theories that may or may not pan out. one interesting point made was during the crucifixion there was a three hour eclipse.... Plus several major earthquakes Now granted God is so powerful He could cause both things to happen without the need of another planet or comet to do the work, but if He allowed such a thing to exist, I assume it is plausible these mysterious elements could be used over and over again. So if there is something mysterious out there, it could indeed match up with one of still missing signs such as the red dragon. now one thing I still do not have an handle on is Revelation 12:4 - which clearly states 1/3 of the stars are being flung to the earth..... if this verse is to be read literally --- then there is going to be some physical damage to the earth..... If we assume that the 1/3 are fallen angels then there may not be physical damage but spiritual damage..... I believe it is not uncommon for literal prophecy to have a representative celestial equivalent (Giza Pyramid mapping, Rev 12:1-2, et c.). I am currently of the opinion that the Draconids meteor shower on Oct 7-9 would celestially represent the casting out of Lucifer and his followers. It is in the right time-frame. Also, a typical eclipse from a fixed point on earth lasts (as i understand it) about 7-8 minutes. A multi-hour eclipse, if celestial in origin would strongly suggest a body - not the moon. Hence, the calculations above, to give a grasp of the size the body would have to be; and of course, it's path through the heavens would suggest a further distance than the moon, because it takes longer than the moon does to eclipse the sun. Off-the-cuff math assuming a ratio of time to distance, and using the perigree and apogee values for the time ratios for the moon (362,600km/7mins and 405,400 km/8mins) = X distance/180 minutes (3 hour eclipse) gives a distance range of: 9,121,500km to 9,324,000km I will try to post a calculation of the diameter of the object based upon these distances tonight. Ok, based upon the calculations I did the other night, and the ones I did earlier today, I calculated the radius of the Object that would be expected to pass as close as 9.2 x 10 6 km from the earth as having a radius of somewhere around 47000-50000 km. Comparing that to the list of planets diameters I previously posted: Moon's polar radius = 1737.1 km Earth's Polar Radius = 6356.8 km Venus' mean radius = 6052 km Mars' polar radius = 3376.2 km Jupiter's polar radius = 66,854 km Saturn's polar radius = 54,364 kmNeptune's polar radius = 24,341 kmPluto's mean radius = 1190 km Sun's radius 695,700 km We are talking about a planet smaller than Saturn, and bigger than Neptune, but close to Saturn's size. Disclaimer: I am not a rocket scientist, I just play one on TV. The numbers I calculated were estimates only. If there were a 'rogue planet' the size calculated, I estimate it would need to be fairly light in terms of its density, since a heavy planet with a large gravitational field would be just about as devastating to earth as a brown dwarf. For fun and giggles here are the densities of the planets listed, so you can get a proportional sense of how much effect their gravity field could have on earth (the 1 x 10 -7 gees previously mentioned): Moon's density =
3.344 g/cm3Earth's density = 5.514 g/cm 3
Venus' density = 5.243 g/cm 3Mars' density = 3.934 g/cm 3Jupiter's density = 1.326 g/cm3Saturn's density = .687 g/cm3
Neptune's density = 1.638 g/cm3Pluto's density = 1.86 g/cm 3Sun's density = 12.4 x earth and I got all my info from Wikipedia, but I did the calcs myself. Conclusion: It is definitely possible that a medium sized gas giant slightly smaller than Saturn could cause a complete eclipse of the sun lasting longer than just a few minutes (many hours). |
|
|
|
Post by Gary on Jul 18, 2017 21:13:30 GMT -6
I believe it is not uncommon for literal prophecy to have a representative celestial equivalent (Giza Pyramid mapping, Rev 12:1-2, et c.). I am currently of the opinion that the Draconids meteor shower on Oct 7-9 would celestially represent the casting out of Lucifer and his followers. It is in the right time-frame. Also, a typical eclipse from a fixed point on earth lasts (as i understand it) about 7-8 minutes. A multi-hour eclipse, if celestial in origin would strongly suggest a body - not the moon. Hence, the calculations above, to give a grasp of the size the body would have to be; and of course, it's path through the heavens would suggest a further distance than the moon, because it takes longer than the moon does to eclipse the sun. Off-the-cuff math assuming a ratio of time to distance, and using the perigree and apogee values for the time ratios for the moon (362,600km/7mins and 405,400 km/8mins) = X distance/180 minutes (3 hour eclipse) gives a distance range of: 9,121,500km to 9,324,000km I will try to post a calculation of the diameter of the object based upon these distances tonight. Ok, based upon the calculations I did the other night, and the ones I did earlier today, I calculated the radius of the Object that would be expected to pass as close as 9.2 x 10 6 km from the earth as having a radius of somewhere around 47000-50000 km. Comparing that to the list of planets diameters I previously posted: Moon's polar radius = 1737.1 km Earth's Polar Radius = 6356.8 km Venus' mean radius = 6052 km Mars' polar radius = 3376.2 km Jupiter's polar radius = 66,854 km Saturn's polar radius = 54,364 kmNeptune's polar radius = 24,341 kmPluto's mean radius = 1190 km Sun's radius 695,700 km We are talking about a planet smaller than Saturn, and bigger than Neptune, but close to Saturn's size. Disclaimer: I am not a rocket scientist, I just play one on TV. The numbers I calculated were estimates only. If there were a 'rogue planet' the size calculated, I estimate it would need to be fairly light in terms of its density, since a heavy planet with a large gravitational field would be just about as devastating to earth as a brown dwarf. So, in other words, a rogue planet slightly smaller than Saturn at quite a further distance than the moon could cause a roughly three hour eclipse? Very interesting. Supposing this planet has a roughly 2,000 year orbital period because of the timing of the crucifixion, I wonder if we could determine its velocity. To me though I would think such a planet would already be very close and visible in the sky since we're talking months... For it to still be invisible it would have to somehow not reflect sunlight, right? |
|
|
|
Post by yardstick on Jul 18, 2017 21:21:45 GMT -6
Ok, based upon the calculations I did the other night, and the ones I did earlier today, I calculated the radius of the Object that would be expected to pass as close as 9.2 x 10 6 km from the earth as having a radius of somewhere around 47000-50000 km. Comparing that to the list of planets diameters I previously posted: Moon's polar radius = 1737.1 km Earth's Polar Radius = 6356.8 km Venus' mean radius = 6052 km Mars' polar radius = 3376.2 km Jupiter's polar radius = 66,854 km Saturn's polar radius = 54,364 kmNeptune's polar radius = 24,341 kmPluto's mean radius = 1190 km Sun's radius 695,700 km We are talking about a planet smaller than Saturn, and bigger than Neptune, but close to Saturn's size. Disclaimer: I am not a rocket scientist, I just play one on TV. The numbers I calculated were estimates only. If there were a 'rogue planet' the size calculated, I estimate it would need to be fairly light in terms of its density, since a heavy planet with a large gravitational field would be just about as devastating to earth as a brown dwarf. So, in other words, a rogue planet slightly smaller than Saturn at quite a further distance than the moon could cause a roughly three hour eclipse? Very interesting. Supposing this planet has a roughly 2,000 year orbital period because of the timing of the crucifixion, I wonder if we could determine its velocity. To me though I would think such a planet would already be very close and visible in the sky since we're talking months... For it to still be invisible it would have to somehow not reflect sunlight, right? Ya caught me in an edit, so theres more. But my estimate would be it would show up near the end of the Trib, not the beginning. if we could see it now, it would be very small. If it shows up during the Aug 21 eclipse, it should look maybe 1/4 the size of the moon? Thats just guess, but if it was 1/4th the size of the moon, you can bet it would get people's attention. Everyone knows there isn't supposed to be something that big out there. SEE CORRECTION BELOW |
|
|
|
Post by yardstick on Jul 18, 2017 21:28:48 GMT -6
Correct that. Think about how big saturn is, how far from us it is, and how easy it is to see at night. Then consider it is on the ecliptic, but this 'rogue planet' is not. I suspect it will hardly be visible, and it wont be right out there where we easily see the other planets.
|
|
|
|
Post by watchmanjim on Jul 18, 2017 21:54:20 GMT -6
Well there may be one or more factor we're not considering. The velocity, arc, and trajectory of the planet/comet/whateveritis.
It could be that an object that appears to be JUST barely wider than the sun (to our eye) could eclipse the sun for three hours IF the velocity and direction were similar to that of the earth. That is to say, if it is SLOWLY crossing through and gets between earth and the sun and just slugs along for a while before passing on.
For an every-day illustration of what I mean, think about the difference between two cars whizzing past each other in opposite directions at 50 mph each (with a closing speed of 100 mph) versus two cars, one passing the other in the same direction, with the slow one going 50 mph and the faster one going 51 mph.
A regular solar eclipse is like the two cars whizzing past in opposite directions, but if a heavenly body were traveling the opposite apparent direction of the moon, it might stay in the sweet spot for a longer period of time, especially depending on what its velocity is.
|
|
|
|
Post by yardstick on Jul 18, 2017 23:47:59 GMT -6
Well there may be one or more factor we're not considering. The velocity, arc, and trajectory of the planet/comet/whateveritis. It could be that an object that appears to be JUST barely wider than the sun (to our eye) could eclipse the sun for three hours IF the velocity and direction were similar to that of the earth. That is to say, if it is SLOWLY crossing through and gets between earth and the sun and just slugs along for a while before passing on. For an every-day illustration of what I mean, think about the difference between two cars whizzing past each other in opposite directions at 50 mph each (with a closing speed of 100 mph) versus two cars, one passing the other in the same direction, with the slow one going 50 mph and the faster one going 51 mph. A regular solar eclipse is like the two cars whizzing past in opposite directions, but if a heavenly body were traveling the opposite apparent direction of the moon, it might stay in the sweet spot for a longer period of time, especially depending on what its velocity is. In that case, the situation would either be that the earth is moving faster than the rogue, and passes it from behind; or the converse. But in any case, it would not hurt to check and see when the next several full lunar eclipses are, because there should be a dual eclipse on one or more of those dates. Then, of course, comparing those lunar eclipse dates to special dates between Aug 21, 2017 and Autumn 2024 may yield some insights. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2017 8:48:18 GMT -6
I believe it is not uncommon for literal prophecy to have a representative celestial equivalent (Giza Pyramid mapping, Rev 12:1-2, et c.). I am currently of the opinion that the Draconids meteor shower on Oct 7-9 would celestially represent the casting out of Lucifer and his followers. It is in the right time-frame. Also, a typical eclipse from a fixed point on earth lasts (as i understand it) about 7-8 minutes. A multi-hour eclipse, if celestial in origin would strongly suggest a body - not the moon. Hence, the calculations above, to give a grasp of the size the body would have to be; and of course, it's path through the heavens would suggest a further distance than the moon, because it takes longer than the moon does to eclipse the sun. Off-the-cuff math assuming a ratio of time to distance, and using the perigree and apogee values for the time ratios for the moon (362,600km/7mins and 405,400 km/8mins) = X distance/180 minutes (3 hour eclipse) gives a distance range of: 9,121,500km to 9,324,000km I will try to post a calculation of the diameter of the object based upon these distances tonight. Ok, based upon the calculations I did the other night, and the ones I did earlier today, I calculated the radius of the Object that would be expected to pass as close as 9.2 x 10 6 km from the earth as having a radius of somewhere around 47000-50000 km. Comparing that to the list of planets diameters I previously posted: Moon's polar radius = 1737.1 km Earth's Polar Radius = 6356.8 km Venus' mean radius = 6052 km Mars' polar radius = 3376.2 km Jupiter's polar radius = 66,854 km Saturn's polar radius = 54,364 kmNeptune's polar radius = 24,341 kmPluto's mean radius = 1190 km Sun's radius 695,700 km We are talking about a planet smaller than Saturn, and bigger than Neptune, but close to Saturn's size. Disclaimer: I am not a rocket scientist, I just play one on TV. The numbers I calculated were estimates only. If there were a 'rogue planet' the size calculated, I estimate it would need to be fairly light in terms of its density, since a heavy planet with a large gravitational field would be just about as devastating to earth as a brown dwarf. For fun and giggles here are the densities of the planets listed, so you can get a proportional sense of how much effect their gravity field could have on earth (the 1 x 10 -7 gees previously mentioned): Moon's density =
3.344 g/cm3Earth's density = 5.514 g/cm 3
Venus' density = 5.243 g/cm 3Mars' density = 3.934 g/cm 3Jupiter's density = 1.326 g/cm3Saturn's density = .687 g/cm3
Neptune's density = 1.638 g/cm3Pluto's density = 1.86 g/cm 3Sun's density = 12.4 x earth and I got all my info from Wikipedia, but I did the calcs myself. Conclusion: It is definitely possible that a medium sized gas giant slightly smaller than Saturn could cause a complete eclipse of the sun lasting longer than just a few minutes (many hours). Okay. It's strong enough to cause earthquakes. If it had the mass of Saturn, it would cause about 0.00005g acceleration. In comparision, the moon causes about 0.00003g's. At the very least, it caused some messed up tides. |
|
|
|
Post by mike on Jul 19, 2017 11:43:14 GMT -6
The YouTube channel "God's roadmap..." Has some interesting theories that may or may not pan out. one interesting point made was during the crucifixion there was a three hour eclipse.... Plus several major earthquakes Now granted God is so powerful He could cause both things to happen without the need of another planet or comet to do the work, but if He allowed such a thing to exist, I assume it is plausible these mysterious elements could be used over and over again. So if there is something mysterious out there, it could indeed match up with one of still missing signs such as the red dragon. now one thing I still do not have an handle on is Revelation 12:4 - which clearly states 1/3 of the stars are being flung to the earth..... if this verse is to be read literally --- then there is going to be some physical damage to the earth..... If we assume that the 1/3 are fallen angels then there may not be physical damage but spiritual damage..... Do you read verse 4, then there seems to be a "distraction" or John shifted his focus to comment on what he saw, then continues the remainder of the scene picking up in verse 7-9. The way it reads in verse 4 is the dragon cast 1/3 of the stars to earth then in 7-9 is the war and the angels are cast out with him (satan). They arent cast out twice, so it seems odd to me that it is written where the "stars" or "angels" are cast down two separate times. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days. 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. |
|
|
|
Post by mike on Jul 19, 2017 11:55:50 GMT -6
Some of the info i've seen on Nibiru is quite mixed. from a brown dwarf being way way out there (how's that for triginometry) with a solar system that will bisect with our, to just a planet 9 (or planet 10 depending on who you listen to). One of the theories is that this is coming from outside the ecliptic, from the south. The theorists state this is the reason for all of the activity in Antartica. Its really the only place one can make observations on this "whatever it is". the other piece that is widely touted is that it is visable in Infrared only and does compare in size to Neptune.
I'll see if i can find a link or two. One site i view from time to time is Skywatch Media News
planetary system warps orbits
brown dwarf twin
|
|
|
|
Post by yardstick on Jul 19, 2017 12:46:15 GMT -6
The YouTube channel "God's roadmap..." Has some interesting theories that may or may not pan out. one interesting point made was during the crucifixion there was a three hour eclipse.... Plus several major earthquakes Now granted God is so powerful He could cause both things to happen without the need of another planet or comet to do the work, but if He allowed such a thing to exist, I assume it is plausible these mysterious elements could be used over and over again. So if there is something mysterious out there, it could indeed match up with one of still missing signs such as the red dragon. now one thing I still do not have an handle on is Revelation 12:4 - which clearly states 1/3 of the stars are being flung to the earth..... if this verse is to be read literally --- then there is going to be some physical damage to the earth..... If we assume that the 1/3 are fallen angels then there may not be physical damage but spiritual damage..... Do you read verse 4, then there seems to be a "distraction" or John shifted his focus to comment on what he saw, then continues the remainder of the scene picking up in verse 7-9. The way it reads in verse 4 is the dragon cast 1/3 of the stars to earth then in 7-9 is the war and the angels are cast out with him (satan). They arent cast out twice, so it seems odd to me that it is written where the "stars" or "angels" are cast down two separate times. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days. 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. It occurs to me that I haven't done a very good job of expressing some baseline assumptions I have when doing all the above calculations. So here goes: 1. It is absolutely possible that the Lord may choose to use what we would call a 'miracle' to accomplish all of the activities we have been discussing. Thus, I defined a 'miracle' as an event that violates the physical laws the Creator placed on His creation. The harpazo would be a prime example. However, I believe that He prefers to work within the physical laws He has prescribed to accomplish said activities where possible. On top of that, 'the clock' (creation) is designed to produce what we might construe as a miracle, at the appropriate time. Such things are 'built into' the system. 2. Frequently prophecy uses descriptive symbols and language to express a physical event, and often physical events mirror spiritual events. Thus, when Rev 12:3-4 is described as '1/3 were swept from the sky', from a physical sense, how would we view that? How many angels are there? More than 12,000 (Matthew 26:53)? What would it look like to see 4,000 'stars' swept from the sky when there are only about 3,000 visible? Occam's Razor suggests that the physical manifestation of 1/3 of the angels being kicked to the curb is a meteor shower. It doesn't hurt any that the timing is right too (Oct 7-9). Interestingly enough, with regard to an apparent duplication of the angels being kicked out of Heaven, what if all the weaker angels were kicked out first, and Lucifer was the last kicked out? Lucifer was an archangel wasnt he? Isnt there a power heirarchy amongst the angels? Alternately, what if Lucifer sent his 'minions' to earth as an advance party for the first half of the Trib, and then he followed at the midpoint? See the cross post for relevance: unsealed.boards.net/thread/442/asteroid-2012-tc4-october |
|
|
|
Post by mike on Jul 19, 2017 13:12:06 GMT -6
It occurs to me that I haven't done a very good job of expressing some baseline assumptions I have when doing all the above calculations. So here goes: 1. It is absolutely possible that the Lord may choose to use what we would call a 'miracle' to accomplish all of the activities we have been discussing. Thus, I defined a 'miracle' as an event that violates the physical laws the Creator placed on His creation. The harpazo would be a prime example. However, I believe that He prefers to work within the physical laws He has prescribed to accomplish said activities where possible. On top of that, 'the clock' (creation) is designed to produce what we might construe as a miracle, at the appropriate time. Such things are 'built into' the system. Totally agree with you here. He knows the end from the beginning, therefore I believe most of what will transpire will be in the natural order of things. Aside from the rapture most things leading up to that point will appear to be "natural". In fact I believe many of the calamities in revelation are "natural". Those that are not are clearly interdimensional (demonic) although likely will be stated as interstellar (alien) such as the giant locusts looking like horses, etc Rev 9:7
2. Frequently prophecy uses descriptive symbols and language to express a physical event, and often physical events mirror spiritual events. Thus, when Rev 12:3-4 is described as '1/3 were swept from the sky', from a physical sense, how would we view that? How many angels are there? More than 12,000 (Matthew 26:53)? What would it look like to see 4,000 'stars' swept from the sky when there are only about 3,000 visible? Occam's Razor suggests that the physical manifestation of 1/3 of the angels being kicked to the curb is a meteor shower. It doesn't hurt any that the timing is right too (Oct 7-9). Rev 5:11 - "And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands" - I think the gist here is that there are too many to count, but the number would be something in the order of 100 Million.
Daniel 7:10 confirms this "A river of fire was flowing And coming out from before Him; Thousands upon thousands were attending Him, And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; The court sat, And the books were opened."Interestingly enough, with regard to an apparent duplication of the angels being kicked out of Heaven, what if all the weaker angels were kicked out first, and Lucifer was the last kicked out? Lucifer was an archangel wasnt he? Isnt there a power heirarchy amongst the angels? Alternately, what if Lucifer sent his 'minions' to earth as an advance party for the first half of the Trib, and then he followed at the midpoint? See the cross post for relevance: unsealed.boards.net/thread/442/asteroid-2012-tc4-october |
|
|
|
Post by yardstick on Jul 31, 2017 13:06:00 GMT -6
It occurred to me today that I should suggest people keep an eye on the August 21 eclipse, to see if there are any stray objects in the sky that don't belong there.
I have forgotten whether I suggested this before, or not.
|
|
