neural
Truth Seeker
Posts: 113
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Post by neural on Mar 10, 2020 1:13:22 GMT -6
edit: wow.. could an admin help out here, I have no clue why the entire second half of this is viewed by the forum software as a link or otherwise made the text blue  :insert long rant and rage filled disseration about the absolute perversion of the Word through "translations": Daniel 9:27b KJV: "..and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." NASB: "..and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.” NIV: "..And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him." Matthew 24:15 KJV: "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)" NASB: "“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)," NIV: "So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—" Brothers! Sisters! WHY do so many preachers, including some whom you would recognize if I put their names here, CONTINUE to speak of "the abomination that causes desolation" as an *ACT* by the Anti-Christ? The scriptures together elude to the abomination either being the Anti-Christ himself, the beast, or the image of the beast. And I'd also like to point out the KJV of Daniel 9:27b "for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate." who is "he"? This is a very important question. The way it is written would, to me, seem to indicate that because of the abominations related to this event, that God makes it desolate. The use of the word "for" in the beginning of the phrases indicates that "he makes it desolate" is the resulting action for the abominations. Altneratively, it could be that "he" is the anti-Christ, and that through his actions he makes the temple desolate and unapproachable. This one has always had me question what it really means. But I heard it mentioned recently about "the abomination that causes desolation", spoken of as if it is some gross sinful act. No, I think scripture is quite clear that it is either the anti-Christ, the beast, or the image of the beast, declaring itself to be God while standing in the holy of holys. |
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Post by mike on Mar 10, 2020 5:05:06 GMT -6
neural , you had some HTML code in there, which I removed and it looks ok now. I'm not sure I follow what your point is though. Are you saying its possible the abomination of desolation is not the Anti-Christ but rather God does this? (Sorry I dont think i'm understanding) EDIT - reading again I am a little hung up by this: elude - evade or escape from (a danger, enemy, or pursuer), typically in a skillful or cunning way. allude - suggest or call attention to indirectly; hint at. which did you mean? The way you wrote it means scripture is evasive not providing hints
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Post by Natalie on Mar 10, 2020 7:45:04 GMT -6
I'm not sure what kind of "act" they are speaking of.
If we go by history, Daniel 11:31 says "Forces from him shall appear and profane the temple and fortress, and shall take away the regular burnt offering. And they shall set up the abomination that makes desolate." Dan 11:21-32 speaks of Antiochus Epiphanes - the "him" in verse 31. Sometimes we have to look outside the Bible to understand what is going on. (Especially with Daniel 11, an amazing chapter) History tells us that Epiphanes erected a statue of Zeus and sacrificed a pig on the altar. That was the abomination that was set up. Interestingly, when I looked up to check to make sure I had my story straight, Epiphanes is a name he gave himself, and it means "God Manifest". He seemed to believe that he was Zeus incarnate or something like that.
So, Epiphanes declared himself God, erected an image, and slaughtered the pig on the altar. Will Antichrist repeat those same acts? We know it says he creates an image to be worshiped and the regular burnt offering is taken away. I don't think it says anything about a sacrifice. Is that what the teachers you are referring to say? Or are they saying there is some other sinful thing Antichrist does? I guess I'm unsure what you are taking about.
I'm not sure who the "he" is either. Jesus tells the Jews that when they see it they should flee. That would be one way to make the temple desolate - no one worshiping there. The temple after Epiphanes' sacrifice would have been desolate too as no Jew would have worshiped there until it had been purified again.
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Post by mike on Mar 10, 2020 9:20:01 GMT -6
edit: wow.. could an admin help out here, I have no clue why the entire second half of this is viewed by the forum software as a link or otherwise made the text blue :insert long rant and rage filled disseration about the absolute perversion of the Word through "translations": Daniel 9:27b KJV: "..and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." NASB: "..and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.” NIV: "..And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him." Matthew 24:15 KJV: "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)" NASB: "“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)," NIV: "So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—" Brothers! Sisters! WHY do so many preachers, including some whom you would recognize if I put their names here, CONTINUE to speak of "the abomination that causes desolation" as an *ACT* by the Anti-Christ? The scriptures together elude to the abomination either being the Anti-Christ himself, the beast, or the image of the beast. I'll follow Natalie's line of thinking on the subject. I wanted to interject something I read in Daniel Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. 24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. 25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify [himself] in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
Is Paul providing commentary on this in 2Thes? ^^^ 2Thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
I see several parallels in 2Thes from Dan 8, those of which I tried to color code above for comparison. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2020 12:35:53 GMT -6
I understood that the AOD would include a figure brought to life that looked like the AC and could kill people who didn't believe in him. I never imagined a replay of the pig blood with Epiphanes.
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neural
Truth Seeker
Posts: 113
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Post by neural on Mar 10, 2020 15:09:55 GMT -6
Ok, will try and answer things in order. First, thanks for cleaning up the HTML code. mike, yes, the proper word is allude. And yes I was directly implying to question whether or not it is God who makes the temple, or perhaps Jerusalem itself desolate in response to the abomination of desolation. Additionally, the Abomination of Desolation is referred to in what reads to me as a noun form, not a verb form. I find it likely that it is the image of the beast. The worship of the image of the beast is very clearly defined as an action by the people of that time. (Rev. 19:20KJV "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.") 2nd Thessalonians and Daniel 8 appear to talk clearly about the anti-Christ, but this *appears* to conflict with the noun-type usage of "Abomination of Desolation", and other scripture such as Rev.19 where-in people are described as worshiping the image of the beast. Is it possible that the beast, the anti-Christ, and the image of the beast are partially interchangeable similar to how God the Father, Jesus Christ the son, and the Holy Spirit are a trinity? It would make sense when looking at how the anti-Christ is going to be a counterfeit messiah, completely with what appears to be a death and resurrection. Natalie,yes, I am speaking of preachers who claim that the anti-Christ will commit some heinous act while in the temple such as the sacrifice of a pig, or some act of sexual immorality. To me it reads more that is will be the placement of the image of the beast within the holy of holys, in which it will declare itself to be God, with the anti-Christ taking the position of "the son". This image makes sense in some ways, as we do not have any real references to what God the Father looks like beyond scripture which is somewhat vague (which I think was Gods choice as His appearance is not necessarily relative to salvation, as that was the role that Jesus took, and we have quite a lot of reference as to what our savior apparently looked like). So, the beast (counterfeit father?) has an image of himself erected in the temple by the anti-Christ (counterfeit son/messiah), and "power" is given to the image to speak/act on behalf of the beast. (now that I'm writing this out, I'm starting to question whether or not there is a counterfeit of the Holy Spirit involved). Furthermore, on the idea that it is simply the placement of the image of the beast, and not a given act such as a sacrifice, I would point out that the anti-Christ causes the sacrifice and daily oblations to cease. In the counterfeit vein of things, the anti-Christ "dying" and "resurrecting" would, again, represent, falsely, that ultimate sacrifice that Jesus really did do, and thus the sacrifice of a pig or such on an altar in the temple does not appear to make sense. Again, there are scriptures I have to look at more closely, because they likely will clarify or perhaps break some of this theory, but I think what I'm really hung up on is the grammatical side of how "the abomination that causes desolation" appears to be a noun, not a verb. |
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Post by disciple4life on Mar 10, 2020 17:30:21 GMT -6
neural, mike, Natalie, boymaker, Hello friends, neural, here's just a thought. There is a lot of debate/questions as what the Abomination of Desolation will be and what it will look like. For a moment, let's put aside the "he" and we could pretend it's a Hobbit. Christ said himself that when you see him standing in the holy place" and this is an action. A person doing something - an action. He's most likely doing something else - maybe proclaiming himself to be God, maybe sacrificing a pig, maybe some thing that is viewed as perverse or grossly offensive by Jews. But these are actions. The action can be an image. - think of that. A statue or sculpture is often a person doing something. A famous general riding a horse raising his sword. My point is that it can be both an action and an image. Disciple4life
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neural
Truth Seeker
Posts: 113
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Post by neural on Mar 10, 2020 18:05:18 GMT -6
disciple4life, possibly. Though the act of standing on the street corner is a passive sort of verb. "standing" itself is a verb, which doesn't necessarily imply any other action. All that said, yes, there is something regarding this which will trigger the opening of the eyes of the Jewish people, but we also have to keep in mind that it is God who removes their blindness. From an earth-side point of view, it might just be that if it is the image in the holy place which declares itself to be god, that is where the Jewish people suddenly are aware that they are calling a human formed pile of plastic and wire God and letting it tell them what to do. @ everyone: yes, I know I'm incoherent most of the time. My fingers aren't keeping up with my though-lines as well as they used to.
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Post by disciple4life on Mar 10, 2020 18:28:18 GMT -6
Thanks neural. I have to say that while I'm interested in the AC and the Abomination of Desolation and what that will be exactly, for some reason, that has been sealed/been kept a mystery for some reason. The other part is that i am of the opinion that we will be raptured before the start of the 7 year tribulation and so it won't matter for us anyway. I have talked a lot to mike and am prepared for the fact that things will not be exactly like we thought, in terms of the events and timings, and how these events play out - and it could be that the tribulation starts and we are still here. Though I'm not at all sure or dogmatic what the trigger event will be- i think every Christian will know it. If it's not the rapture itself, and the rapture comes later, then it would likely be the Ezek 38 war, and or a ginormous earthquake and the building of the 3rd Temple. Something has to start the day count - to light the fuse. So in that case, then, we buy 3 camp stoves and stock up on rice and powdered milk and canned goods. ;-) I also agree with your assessment, that standing can be a passive verb, but you seem to be saying with the reference to plastic and wire idol/statue that the AC is not a real person. My point is that what ever it is - the AC will not just be standing in the Holy Place. He does something that is profane - an abomination, and this is precisely why most see it as an act, an action. But I don't have really hard -formed opinions on this at this time. When i see many nations come together and attack Israel, or the temple being constructed, or a charismatic leader come and promise peace, and security, and two witnesses in Jerusalem wearing weird clothes and they don't die- I'll be convinced that the tribulation has started. |
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Post by yardstick on Mar 10, 2020 19:48:45 GMT -6
Ok, will try and answer things in order. First, thanks for cleaning up the HTML code. mike , yes, the proper word is allude. And yes I was directly implying to question whether or not it is God who makes the temple, or perhaps Jerusalem itself desolate in response to the abomination of desolation. Additionally, the Abomination of Desolation is referred to in what reads to me as a noun form, not a verb form. I find it likely that it is the image of the beast. The worship of the image of the beast is very clearly defined as an action by the people of that time. (Rev. 19:20KJV "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.") 2nd Thessalonians and Daniel 8 appear to talk clearly about the anti-Christ, but this *appears* to conflict with the noun-type usage of "Abomination of Desolation", and other scripture such as Rev.19 where-in people are described as worshiping the image of the beast. Is it possible that the beast, the anti-Christ, and the image of the beast are partially interchangeable similar to how God the Father, Jesus Christ the son, and the Holy Spirit are a trinity? It would make sense when looking at how the anti-Christ is going to be a counterfeit messiah, completely with what appears to be a death and resurrection. Natalie ,yes, I am speaking of preachers who claim that the anti-Christ will commit some heinous act while in the temple such as the sacrifice of a pig, or some act of sexual immorality. To me it reads more that is will be the placement of the image of the beast within the holy of holys, in which it will declare itself to be God, with the anti-Christ taking the position of "the son". This image makes sense in some ways, as we do not have any real references to what God the Father looks like beyond scripture which is somewhat vague (which I think was Gods choice as His appearance is not necessarily relative to salvation, as that was the role that Jesus took, and we have quite a lot of reference as to what our savior apparently looked like). So, the beast (counterfeit father?) has an image of himself erected in the temple by the anti-Christ (counterfeit son/messiah), and "power" is given to the image to speak/act on behalf of the beast. (now that I'm writing this out, I'm starting to question whether or not there is a counterfeit of the Holy Spirit involved). Furthermore, on the idea that it is simply the placement of the image of the beast, and not a given act such as a sacrifice, I would point out that the anti-Christ causes the sacrifice and daily oblations to cease. In the counterfeit vein of things, the anti-Christ "dying" and "resurrecting" would, again, represent, falsely, that ultimate sacrifice that Jesus really did do, and thus the sacrifice of a pig or such on an altar in the temple does not appear to make sense. Again, there are scriptures I have to look at more closely, because they likely will clarify or perhaps break some of this theory, but I think what I'm really hung up on is the grammatical side of how "the abomination that causes desolation" appears to be a noun, not a verb. You might consider the details about what the holy of holies was, who was allowed to go in and when, and what its purpose was, in regard to your study... |
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neural
Truth Seeker
Posts: 113
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Post by neural on Mar 11, 2020 15:49:35 GMT -6
yardstick, that's partly the point. "when you see the abomination that causes desolation standing..." Whether it is the anti-Christ or the image of the beast "standing" in that place, that is likely the point at which the Jewish people will have their eyes opened. I would imagine that just standing there, without saying any words at all or doing anything, would be seen as one declaring oneself to be God, as that is the original purpose of that place, and why going into that place was not beneficial to ones health.
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