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Post by disciple4life on Mar 5, 2020 12:14:10 GMT -6
Hello my dear watchman family, So a little background for context. On another thread, we were discussing some theories re timing ( sequence) of events. yardstick asked a few very interesting questions that i was thinking about. Then later i was studying something else and this came up in the research. Its just a theory- which i hold loosely. Yardstick is not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with the notion [ my position that the Feasts are inseparably linked with the First and Second advent]. So here's his question and then the theory. Yardstick said "That said, if there are three left, [Feasts] then it would seem to me that since the Feast of Booths is clearly hinted at in scripture as in the millennium, there is nothing to say that it is not representative of the first day of the millennium (and all Feast of Booth holidays after that fall on the same day each year, roughly). If someone is suggesting that the Feast of Booths is descriptive of the entire millennium, then I would have to ask if they drew the same conclusion about the first four, the Feast of Atonement (perpetual, or one-time event?) and the Feast of Trumpets (perpetual, or one-time event?). I would expect some consistency in the pattern. For me that means the Feast of Trumpets would have to be the Harpazo, the Feast of Atonement - the Second Coming, and the Feast of Booths, the set up of the millennial kingdom, where Christ begins to rule on earth for the millennium. Do you think the nature and understanding of Harpazo, Atonement and Booths is commensurate with the events that occur at these times? If not, what is the discrepancy and why?" So the notion is held by myself and some well-known end times scholars and Messianic rabbis that the last 3 Fall feasts will be perfectly fulfilled in the events of the Second Advent. But How?? *** This is the opinion of Avi Ben Mordechai, author & Jewish scholar who was raised Orthodox and became a follower of Christ as an adult. The millennium is 1000 years. It is explicitly stated in scripture that all nations will celebrate Sukkot/ Feast of Booths in the Millennium. So if the raoture is linked/ associated with Feast of Trumpets, Where does day of Atonement come in? Feast of Trumpets is the 2 days of Tishrei [its the only feast that happens on the new Moon and it is sometimes cloudy, rainy so its the Feast No One knows the Day or Hour. **Jews believe At Feast of Trumpets, the door of Heaven is Opened (Rev 4). Tishrei 10th is Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) the most sacred day of all, and the door of heaven is shut, and that persons judgment is fixed for the year. This is a time of deep soul searching and righting wrongdoings. This is why there is the long established saying in the investment world- "Sell (your stocks, shares) on Rosh Hashanah and buy back on Yom Kippur". Avi Ben Mordechai makes the case that the rapture happens at Rosh hashanah/FOT - the door if heaven is opened and its the Day of Shouting. Then there is a gap- intermediary 7 days between FOT and Day of Atonement. He believes that this Gap is when the Ezekiel 38 war occurs, and then on Day of Atonement, the door of heaven is closed and the Time of Jacob's troubles begins, the judgement is fixed for all those who rejected the Messiah. And the Bride is carried into the Chupah 7 days/years. So tell me your thoughts. Even if you don't think the feasts are directly tied, do you thick a gap is plausible? If so, how much time, between the rapture and start of Tribulation? |
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Post by yardstick on Mar 5, 2020 21:24:36 GMT -6
Maybe the possibility that the Day of Atonement begins at the AoD? THe 144k begin their ministry; and the believing jews are hidden away, as they pass into hiding per Matthew 24, and some of the old testament prophetic passages which appear to relate to them...?
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Post by disciple4life on Mar 5, 2020 22:26:30 GMT -6
Maybe the possibility that the Day of Atonement begins at the AoD? THe 144k begin their ministry; and the believing jews are hidden away, as they pass into hiding per Matthew 24, and some of the old testament prophetic passages which appear to relate to them...? . Hello my brother, Its a very good thought. I guess its possible. As i said, im holding this loosely but will continue to think about it and what The fulfillment of Day of Atonement might look like for the duration of the Tribulation. ** like you mentioned-- is it just fulfilled once at the start, and also sukkot at the beginningofthe millenniumor every year. I think you make a great point re the deeds/ fruit of the 144,000 Jewish witnesses and other Tribulation saints, in sharp contrast to those who still reject Christ in the Tribulation. yardstick, I'm not good with calculating the days, but as I remember, you're the numbers Jedi. I know there are some fancy programs that will calculate the number of days between days from the past or future. **I'm sure you will know what i mean yardstick, but this was the way those like Scott Clarke and Johnathan Kohn and Rabbi Mark Biltz can calculate the 60 prophetic days between Two Blood moons that fell on full moons, making a tetrad. One was Passover ** because passover always falls on a full moon and the other is Feast of Booths/sukkot which is also always on the full moon. Can you check the days from Day of atonement- any year forward 1260 days [3 1/2 years]?? This would make it be March or April and I'm very curious how close it comes to Passover. Hmmmm😉 I know you're tracking w me, but for those who are guests or don't get where im coming from, I'm using the hypothesis/ position that the Abomination of Desolation happens at the mid point 3 1/2 year mark. The other interesting thing is that pretending for just a brief second that there is a 7 day gap and tribulation starts at Yom kippur/Day of Atonement then 3 1/2 years would put us very close to passover Which is 1. when they do Sacrifices in the temple. Insert ninja emoji. And 2. A pilgrimage Feast, when Jews were required to come to Jerusalem, so there would be tens of thousands there to witness the Abomination of Desolation. Hmmmm. |
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Post by boraddict on Mar 5, 2020 23:57:26 GMT -6
Maybe the possibility that the Day of Atonement begins at the AoD? THe 144k begin their ministry; and the believing jews are hidden away, as they pass into hiding per Matthew 24, and some of the old testament prophetic passages which appear to relate to them...? I think you make a great point re the deeds/ fruit of the 144,000 Jewish witnesses and other Tribulation saints, in sharp contrast to those who still reject Christ in the Tribulation. disciple4life, the Book of Revelation shows that only 12,000 are Jewish (Rev. 7:5) and the remainder come from the other tribes. Can you explain how all 144,000 are Jewish? Thanks. Secondly, it seems to me that the 1st event started in September with the Chapter 12 sign (9/23/17) that corresponds to tabernacles (when Christ was born). Do you agree with this assessment. |
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Post by Natalie on Mar 6, 2020 8:29:27 GMT -6
I think you make a great point re the deeds/ fruit of the 144,000 Jewish witnesses and other Tribulation saints, in sharp contrast to those who still reject Christ in the Tribulation. disciple4life, the Book of Revelation shows that only 12,000 are Jewish (Rev. 7:5) and the remainder come from the other tribes. Can you explain how all 144,000 are Jewish? Thanks. Secondly, it seems to me that the 1st event started in September with the Chapter 12 sign (9/23/17) that corresponds to tabernacles (when Christ was born). Do you agree with this assessment. I think it is a matter of you two using the same word "Jewish" but meaning different things. Jacob's twelve sons are the twelve tribes. Over the years they are collectively known by several names: Israel, Israelis, Israelites, Jews, Jewish people, Hebrews. Yes, the name Jew came from the tribe Judah, but whatever name, it's encompassing all twelve. (Like their religion became known as Judaism) D4L, myself, and others use "Jewish" in this way. It says in Ezekiel that God will unite them all as one stick in His hand. He also knows which tribe each one belongs to even if they don't. |
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Post by Natalie on Mar 6, 2020 8:41:42 GMT -6
An example that I can relate to is thinking about our church's missionaries to Cambodia. The people there are known as the Khmer after the language they speak, but they also get called Cambodians. The two names look nothing alike, they originate from two different things, but they mean the same people group. Just as the word Jewish means the descendants of Israel (Jacob). Not exactly the same, but the closest analogy I could come up with.  |
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Post by venge on Mar 6, 2020 10:36:43 GMT -6
Id liked to hear all of your prerequisites for the feasts:
1. Feast of Trumpets prerequisites
2. Day of atonement prerequisites
3. Tabernacles prerequisites
Perhaps, the prerequisites could lead to better scriptural understanding.
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Post by disciple4life on Mar 6, 2020 15:44:15 GMT -6
Id liked to hear all of your prerequisites for the feasts: 1. Feast of Trumpets prerequisites 2. Day of atonement prerequisites 3. Tabernacles prerequisites Perhaps, the prerequisites could lead to better scriptural understanding. Hello my brother,
Just for the sake of clarification for myself and others on the thread, venge, do you mean prerequisites as in what is needed for these feasts to happen? or more in the sense of our prerequisites of how we see these feasts are fulfilled? Or did you have something else in mind.?
I agree that it could lead to a better understanding.
I'm also interested to learn in anyone else thinks there will be any gap, and if so, how long?
[Actually, there is nothing in scripture to my knowledge that says the tribulation starts immediately after the rapture -- If it did, then there would likely not be the diverse opinions on the sequence of events.]
Disciple4life
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Post by Natalie on Mar 6, 2020 15:57:07 GMT -6
Currently I don't see any gap. Or a very tiny one - 6 months or less (probably less)
With the rapture, the Age of Grace is over and God refocuses on finishing Israel's history, there is no need for a gap.
And the world is ready.
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Post by disciple4life on Mar 6, 2020 16:45:29 GMT -6
I think you make a great point re the deeds/ fruit of the 144,000 Jewish witnesses and other Tribulation saints, in sharp contrast to those who still reject Christ in the Tribulation. disciple4life, the Book of Revelation shows that only 12,000 are Jewish (Rev. 7:5) and the remainder come from the other tribes. Can you explain how all 144,000 are Jewish? Thanks. Secondly, it seems to me that the 1st event started in September with the Chapter 12 sign (9/23/17) that corresponds to tabernacles (when Christ was born). Do you agree with this assessment. Hello Friend, boraddict.
So, Natalie's response was right on - she said it so well. This is D4L version 2.0 -- more otter, less lion. ;-) What I mean is that the passage explicitly Lists 12,000 from each tribe - Sons of Jacob. Natalie said "Jacob's twelve sons are the twelve tribes [Of Israel]. Over the years they are collectively known by several names: Israel, Israelis, Israelites, Jews, Jewish people, Hebrews. Yes, the name Jew came from the tribe Judah, but whatever name, it's encompassing all twelve." [All twelve tribes listed are all from the 12 sons of Jacob and Rachel and Leah.]
This also has an extra layer of confusion/complexity, because a person can be Jewish race - ethnically by blood, but be Christian or Atheist. Johnathan Cohn is a Jewish rabbi, who is a Christian. Also Mark Biltz. So these 144,000 are Israelites, or Hebrew, or Jewish, or Children of Israel, or Jewish people - who are circumcised males, who keep Sabbath on Friday night/Saturday and don't eat pork and observe Passover -- as opposed to Gentiles - uncircumcised Poles, or Russians, or Irish or Danes or Swedes or Chinese guys who eat pork, and have no Sabbath, or have their Sabbath on Sunday. These 144,000 are not, and cannot be descendants of mike, or myself.
Here's another analogy - so there are 1000 guys that were hand-picked from Chicago, Toronto Canada and Europe. They all speak Polish as their first/mother language, and they all eat pierogies and pork and Karp for Christmas and they all are not circumcised, and they all celebrate Christmas on Dec 24 and Dec 25, and They all have the last name Kowalski - one of the most common surnames in Poland - and means Farrier/blacksmith. They are all descendants, - great great great grandsons of Jaroslaw the Farrier. [ No one would think or suggest any of these guys are Asian, or Jewish, or Israeli, or Arab/Sons of Ishmael.
So, your second question boraddict. "Secondly, it seems to me that the 1st event started in September with the Chapter 12 sign (9/23/17) that corresponds to tabernacles (when Christ was born). Do you agree with this assessment."
What do you mean by "the first event started in September with the Chapter 12 sign" ?? The Rev 12 sign was not on Feast of Booths/Tabernacles, or Feast of Trumpets, or Day of Atonement. It was one day away from Feast of Trumpets.
I believe that Rev 12 sign was significant, and a piece of the end times puzzle, but indirectly. I think it was significant in 'waking a lot of people up'. Now they are actively watching and studying. It got thousands of people looking at signs in the heavens, and thousands interested in Blood moons and tetrads, and their significance, but I see the sign itself as being too far from harpazo to be linked.
I do believe it's very likely [ lots of circumstantial evidence ] that points to Christ being born at Feast of Booths/Tabernacles/Sukkot. It was not clearly stated, and there are some very serious problems with this that don't add up. (So I'm divided on this one) ;-) Yeah, I know it may seem shocking, but I'm not persuaded one way or the other. - but very fascinated.
Blessings and cheese grits for all my fellow watchmen. ;-)
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Post by yardstick on Mar 6, 2020 20:05:15 GMT -6
Maybe the possibility that the Day of Atonement begins at the AoD? THe 144k begin their ministry; and the believing jews are hidden away, as they pass into hiding per Matthew 24, and some of the old testament prophetic passages which appear to relate to them...? . Hello my brother, Its a very good thought. I guess its possible. As i said, im holding this loosely but will continue to think about it and what The fulfillment of Day of Atonement might look like for the duration of the Tribulation. ** like you mentioned-- is it just fulfilled once at the start, and also sukkot at the beginningofthe millenniumor every year. I think you make a great point re the deeds/ fruit of the 144,000 Jewish witnesses and other Tribulation saints, in sharp contrast to those who still reject Christ in the Tribulation. yardstick , I'm not good with calculating the days, but as I remember, you're the numbers Jedi. I know there are some fancy programs that will calculate the number of days between days from the past or future. **I'm sure you will know what i mean yardstick , but this was the way those like Scott Clarke and Johnathan Kohn and Rabbi Mark Biltz can calculate the 60 prophetic days between Two Blood moons that fell on full moons, making a tetrad. One was Passover ** because passover always falls on a full moon and the other is Feast of Booths/sukkot which is also always on the full moon. Can you check the days from Day of atonement- any year forward 1260 days [3 1/2 years]?? This would make it be March or April and I'm very curious how close it comes to Passover. Hmmmm😉 I know you're tracking w me, but for those who are guests or don't get where im coming from, I'm using the hypothesis/ position that the Abomination of Desolation happens at the mid point 3 1/2 year mark. The other interesting thing is that pretending for just a brief second that there is a 7 day gap and tribulation starts at Yom kippur/Day of Atonement then 3 1/2 years would put us very close to passover Which is 1. when they do Sacrifices in the temple. Insert ninja emoji. And 2. A pilgrimage Feast, when Jews were required to come to Jerusalem, so there would be tens of thousands there to witness the Abomination of Desolation. Hmmmm. This can be done with any spreadsheet program, such as excel, or openoffice calc Generally, your formula in the cell will be something like =today() + 28 or =now() + 28 to get a date 28 days from now. To go 'back in time' just use a (-) instead of the plus You can also use another cell reference like C5 (which has a number like 1260 in it) to get the date that far out. =today() + c5, where cell c5 has a value like 28 in it. So if you know what date a blood moon was on, plus a multiple of say 28 days, or whatever number you want, it will give you a new date. Here is an example. The coordinate for the upper left cell in the table is A1. This is like Battleship, if you have ever played it. Te second column is B, then C, et c. The second row is 2, then 3 et c. So the row labeled "Row 3 Column 6" below would be F3: | 9/23/17 | 2300 | 1/10/24 | 1260 | 6/29/2020 | 2/9/2024
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| 1290 | 7/29/2020 | |
| Row 3 column 2 |
| 1335 |
| Row 3 column 6 |
C1 value above would be calculated by the following formula: =A1 + B1
F1 value is from D2 + E1 (1260 + 1290 days)
So if you know what dates in any calendar year are Days of Atonement, FoT, Booths, et c; then you can get an estimate of what possible dates there are for a Harpazo, or AoD, et c.
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Post by Natalie on Mar 6, 2020 20:26:09 GMT -6
So, here's what I've been pondering...the Feast of Tabernacles could be the wedding feast and the start of the Millennial Kingdom. (It's then celebrated as a remembrance throughout the 1000 years.) Would that put the Day of Atonement as the sheep and goats judgment and the raising of the Trib saints? These would be the guests at the wedding feast. So then Feast of Trumpets could be 1) the Rapture but years earlier 2) some kind of gathering of Israel 3)the actual physical return of Jesus 4)more than one of these 5)all of the above 6) none of the above. So, possibly Jesus returns on FOT to gather Israel (Micah 2:12,) goes and defeats the bad guys (Is 63), gathers all who are left alive and separates sheep and goats (Matt 25:31-46) on DOA and then celebrates the wedding feast. |
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Post by mike on Mar 6, 2020 20:50:41 GMT -6
🤣🤣🤣 Stick youre such a nerd!
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Post by disciple4life on Mar 6, 2020 21:09:57 GMT -6
So, here's what I've been pondering...the Feast of Tabernacles could be the wedding feast and the start of the Millennial Kingdom. (It's then celebrated as a remembrance throughout the 1000 years.) Would that put the Day of Atonement as the sheep and goats judgment and the raising of the Trib saints? These would be the guests at the wedding feast. So then Feast of Trumpets could be 1) the Rapture but years earlier 2) some kind of gathering of Israel 3)the actual physical return of Jesus 4)more than one of these 5)all of the above 6) none of the above. So, possibly Jesus returns on FOT to gather Israel (Micah 2:12,) goes and defeats the bad guys (Is 63), gathers all who are left alive and separates sheep and goats (Matt 25:31-46) on DOA and then celebrates the wedding feast. Hello Friends,
Natalie, I think you unwittingly knocked it out of the park, to use an American sports analogy. LOL. I think your scenario/ possibility makes a lot of sense, and I like it - but not just because it happens to "fit" but because there's evidence that supports it - at least your first paragraph.
For millennia - Jews in ancient times have understood Feast of Booths/ Sukkot [Feast of Tabernacles] to be connected with the millennium. There is historical evidence from the Talmud that Jews also used countless idioms that were instantly understood and recognized, like we use "The whole nine yards" or "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth", and Turkey Day. Here's also a shout out to boraddict, regarding the belief that Christ was born at Feast of Booths/ [Feast of tabernacles and 'Sukkot' -- all the same thing.] ;-) One of these was the phrase "Tidings of great joy for all the people" that the angels said to the shepherds, was a well-known idiom for Feast of Booths, which all the nations of the world will celebrate.
Also, the words in the gospel of John chapter 1 are "In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God... the word was made flesh and "dwelt among us", and the word here in the original Greek for dwelt among us is the same exact word as "tabernacle"
This also fits well with the great throng of gentiles in Rev that no one could count, from every tribe, nation and people who said to the Lamb, "You have purchased us by your blood".
hmmm. I don't know about the sheep goats judgement, and how it fits in here. ?? Day of atonement is connected with the judgement being given/fixed - and one of the themes is that the door of heaven is shut. Maybe you or @stormyknoght, boraddict or venge, mike or yardstick or fitz or others can connect other dots that I can't.
So we know with 100 % certainty that Feast of Booths/Sukkot will be celebrated by all nations in the millennium, and Jews have made this connection for thousands of years.
Regarding Feast of Trumpets, - I see it as being your option #1 above. Jews around the world see it as the wedding of the messiah, and the Resurrection, and the Coronation of the King,  - and this is Jews who are not followers of Messiah, whose eyes are blinded, for now. Wow.
To answer venge s question as briefly and clearly as I can - not sure exactly what you mean by "our prerequisites for the feasts", but I understand you to be asking how we see them fulfilled. In my humble opinion, I think they absolutely have to be fulfilled in order, on the exact day that they occur, First four Spring feasts, and then the last 3 Fall Feasts, with the only ones left being Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement and Feast of Booths. We also know from scripture that the last feast - Sukkot/Feast of Booths happens in the Millennium, so that really just leaves two. I also think that they are [will be fulfilled exactly on the day that the feasts occur on], -because they are 'appointed times', but I don't have a strong opinion of exactly how they are fulfilled - what the details will look like. I am inclined to believe that these will be fulfilled very close together, - like the 7 day gap. I am also open to the notion that we could see A dual fulfillment of Day of Atonement that corresponds to the Abomination of desolation and or particularlythat correspondstothe second coming, when the judgement is poured out
Hope it's helpful. You all are so helpful and so encouraging, and such a huge blessing to me - I'm so grateful to be on this journey with you all, and blessed to be counted as a watchman on the wall.
Disciple4life
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- and this is Jews who are not followers of Messiah, whose eyes are blinded, for now. Wow.