Gog And Magog: The War To End All Wars

Most welcome. All credit to Jeff. He worked tirelessly on this one (:

Below is a cross-post from the comments that I posted to answer a few additional objections that were raised:

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Some great questions and thoughts being raised. As we consider additional points, let's not lose sight of a few key things:


1. Both sides have significant issues that have to be dealt with. When debating pre-trib, Armageddon, or post-millennial views, certain things always come up regarding similarities and seeming differences. Remember, the Bible is REPLETE with patterns, but that doesn't mean all similar things are the same. Antiochus was a type of the Antichrist, but not the man himself. Egypt was beset by plagues like those in Revelation, but that doesn't mean Armageddon happened 3,500 years ago. Jacob had 12 sons. That doesn't man his sons are the twelve apostles, etc.

The point being, the Bible, and Bible prophecy in particular, is filled with types, repeats, and dual fulfillments (take Rev. 12 as just one prime example we have discussed many times). Jeff addressed this directly in his article. We see things in this world that are a shadow of Ezek. 38-39, but the only fulfillment that will directly fulfill the words occurs, according to John, after Satan is released from the Abyss post-millennium.


2. When arguing the three different sides I think we should circle back to a key point Jeff brought up: what is the clearest Bible reference as to the timing? John directly references Ezek. 38-39 in Rev. 20. It's the only direct reference in the entire New Testament. He places it after the millennium to come.

This is not to say there couldn't be an earlier "Gog and Magog" pre-trib or contemporaneous with Armageddon, but it would be an argument from silence, using pattern only.


3. ***Note that omission does not equal difference.*** We have to be cautious with these conclusions. To give an example of what I mean:

Rev. 20 says Gog's armies are destroyed by fire.

Ezekiel says Gog's armies are destroyed by rain, hailstones, and burning sulfur (Ezek. 38:22), as well as fire (Ezek. 39:6).

Now this could mean that there are two Gog/Magog wars, the first with rain, hail, burning sulfur, and fire, and the second with just fire. ***OR*** it could mean there is one Gog/Magog war with rain, hail, burning sulfur, and fire, but the apostle John mentions only fire.

In other words, Rev. 20 does not contradict Ezek. 38-39 on this point, it just doesn't mention all the details of Ezek. 38-39.

Likewise, each of the four gospels offers many different details about Jesus and His ministry, some details even differ over very specific conversations and miracles. Are we to assume that there are four different Messiahs named "Jesus"?


4. The outcome of the battle in Ezek. 39:21-29, though superficially similar to the Second Coming, when taken literally, more closely mirrors post-millennium. The millennium will be a time when the knowledge of God covers the world, but the Fall is still very much in place for those not resurrected. And the world itself will still be wounded from the Fall. It envisions a time when Israel will be completely redeemed without any of the effects of sin (39:26-28).

Additionally, God will be directly manifest (Ezek. 39:29; cf. Rev. 21:3). Regarding the nations (Ezek. 39:21), note that "nations" can refer to Gentiles in general, just as easily as it can refer to the geographic entities. The nations are present post-millennium (Rev. 21:24-26). Also note that in Ezek. 39:21 God displays His glory to the nations. Compare to Rev. 21:23-24.


5. There are key details that are particularly hard to reconcile with the pre-trib or early-trib Ezek. 38 view. Namely:

-Gog's armies have shields, bucklers, swords, bows, arrows, clubs, and spears. The modern Russia-Iran-Turkey theory largely ignores these key details. I imagine there isn't a bow and arrow, nor spear, in the entire Russian, Iranian, and Turkey militaries. This armor and these weapons mentioned do not align in any way with 2020.

-Many in Gog's horde are riding on horseback. Same issue.

-Burning of weapons. Again, this doesn't align with pre-trib or early-trib. Israel will only remain in the land for max 3.5 years at this point, leaving for the wilderness at the AOD. On top of this, the Trib is an extended period of extreme judgment from God. Marking bodies with flags and gathering weapons to burn doesn't easily fit with the picture of the Day of the LORD we get in Scripture. These are things carried out at a time of relative peace (hence 39:21-29).

-While the spoil=oil scenario fits nice with 2020, it doesn't fit nice with Ezekiel 38. The spoil is explicitly listed as "silver and gold... livestock and goods" (38:13). These are things of very limited geopolitical value today, but definitely things of great value at the time Ezekiel recorded his prophecy, and perhaps of great value at the end of the millennium. At Armageddon, the world will have been largely destroyed, and the armies arrayed come to destroy Jerusalem and defeat the returning Christ. They'll care nothing for gold and silver at this point.

-Unwalled villages dwelling securely. I've heard some creative explanations for this, but at the end of the day, not only is most of Israel's external borders with the West Bank, Gaza, and Lebanon walled and fenced, including with watchtowers, but most of Israel's enclaves in Judea and Samaria are walled and fenced, too. Additionally, as Jeff mentioned, Israel is NOT secure today. It's a false sense of security, if even that. They are surrounded by enemies, not occupying all of their own land, and constantly targeting by rockets, snipers, knife attacks, and terrorist bombers. In the Trib it will only get worse.

With all that has happened recently, I give Jeff's article a lot of credit and I recognize that a lot of what is said in Ezekiel 38 and 39 is talking about the post-millennial war. However, I'm not giving up on a pre-trib or early-trib MG war too. I still hold to the likelihood of a dual fulfillment.