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Post by rt on Jan 14, 2020 10:09:24 GMT -6
I know others have posted study concerning this topic, I offer my own, using parallel passages, let me know what you think.
The Olivet Discourse
It appears that Jesus and the disciples retired to the Mount of Olives for the evening after a day of teaching in the temple (Luke 21:37-38). As they were leaving the temple the disciples remarked how great the temple was, but Jesus tells them it will be torn down and utterly destroyed. Some of the disciples later, on the Mount of Olives privately ask Him questions regarding His statement. Mark’s account says it was Peter, James and John and Andrew who asked. Neither Matthew nor Luke specifies who. Matthew’s account says they ask about the sign of His coming and the end of the age, while Mark and Luke’s account seems to refer back to the temple destruction and what the sign would be of this fulfillment.
It is a commonly held belief that the book of Luke was not written as an eyewitness account, but that Luke was a contemporary of the apostle Paul who penned his epistles some time after Christ’s death and resurrection. Luke wrote more as a reporter would write after conducting research and speaking with eyewitnesses after the fact. It is also believed that Luke wrote the book of acts.
Christ’s answer is in response to the question asked by the disciples (underlined in passages above). Though the question was asked in the context of the destruction of the temple, the answer Jesus gives encompasses His second coming and the events leading up to that event, including the destruction of the temple which history tells us, happened in 70AD. I believe that the answer Jesus gives demonstrates that the destruction of the temple is integral to his return to earth at His second coming, demonstrating that the temple era would come to an end while the church would become the temple of the Holy Spirit on earth, the footstool of God’s throne.
Matthew’s account however shows the disciples asking about Christ’s coming and the end of the age. Earlier in Matthew 16:27 Jesus talks to His disciples about His “coming”:
The disciples were told that some among them would not see death until they see the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom. This would of course refer to John, who witnessed Christ’s return in his vision on Patmos, when he received and recorded the Revelation of Christ. However they did not understand that at the time. Jesus had also just finished telling them that He was to suffer and also afterward when they witnessed the transfiguration, Jesus told them he would rise from the dead (Matthew 17:9). Jesus also foretold His death and resurrection in the following:
So the disciples were told that Jesus would die and be raised from the dead. They also understood that Jesus was going to “come” in glory and establish His kingdom on earth. They appear to acknowledge that the destruction of the temple is connected in some way to that kingdom age. What level of understanding they had is up for debate. But they obviously needed clarification, hence their question.
In response to the question Jesus highlights certain things that He calls the beginning of birth pains:
1. Deception: He says to the disciples: “See to it that no one misleads you”- Many would come in His name, claiming to be the Christ, Luke adds that they will claim that the time is near. In fact many will be led astray, but those who follow Jesus should not follow after them.
2. Wars and rumors of wars: Each account has Jesus warning them that those wars and rumors of wars must happen, but that they shouldn’t be frightened by them, that is not yet the end. All three accounts include elaboration by Jesus saying that nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom. Luke’s account uses the word “disturbances” rather than “rumors of wars”, this word in the Greek; ἀκαταστασία [akatastasia /ak•at•as•tah•see•ah/], means instability or state of disorder.
3. Earthquakes: in various unspecified places, Luke adds the descriptor “great” to describe this sign.
4. Famines: Also described as occurring in various places. Luke adds plagues to this sign, which in the Greek is the word; λοιμός [loimos /loy•mos/], meaning pestilence.
5: Terrors and great signs from heaven: Luke is the only one to include this sign here in the narrative.
Jesus calls these signs, as noted earlier, merely the beginning of birth pains. These appear to be signs that affect the general population. Jesus uses the metaphor of a birth to describe the birth of His kingdom, which is what the disciples were awaiting, the Kingdom age, when the Messiah would rein on earth.
Cont'd...
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Post by rt on Jan 14, 2020 10:14:00 GMT -6
Jesus continues with His answer, describing what His disciples themselves could expect, these signs are more personal, specifically directed toward His disciples, but more generally can also be ascribed to all who would follow Jesus since that time. These signs are for believers, those who are part of the body of Christ or the Church.
1. Tribulation and persecution
2. Martyrdom
3. Many will stumble in faith (fall away), betraying one another
4. False prophets will arise and mislead many
5. Increase in lawlessness, causing the love of many to grow cold
6. Gospel will be preached in the whole world
These signs call for endurance of faith as believers, amidst whatever hardship comes. The response of the one who endures in faith during difficult times will stand as a testimony to those who hate them and who accuse them, be they members of state or members of one’s own family. Jesus will provide for their defense. Though they may lose their life in this world as a result, by their endurance of faith they will gain eternal life.
At this point all three gospels, change course and point to one specific sign, this sign appears to be time sensitive; Jesus calls it “the end” in Matthew’s gospel, it is the event that will bring about the birth of His kingdom on earth. This sign is also directed toward a specific group of people- those residing in Judea.
Luke’s gospel does not point to the Abomination of desolation as Matthew and Mark do. Luke says that the sign is when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies. Some claim that this shows that Jesus is specifically answering the question about when the temple would be destroyed in 70 AD rather than pointing to His return to earth. But remember that Luke is not an eyewitness to this conversation; he is gathering information from eyewitness accounts after the fact. The context is the same and therefore we should not assume that this account is directed to a different part of the question. There is also no need to see it as a contradiction, both things could be true; armies may surround Jerusalem at the same time that the abomination of desolation occurs.
Matthew and Mark seem to identify more with the Jews of the narrative , while Luke may be seeing it from a gentile perspective, warning those outside of Judaism what to look for. In fact Luke is the only one who mentions gentiles and speaks of the Judean people in terms that he does not appear to associate with. There are many scholars who believe that Luke was in fact a gentile believer. Luke is also the only one who mentions that Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled. The “times “of the gentiles should not be confused with the “fullness” of the gentiles that Paul speaks of in Romans 11:25. The “times” of the gentiles, refers to the rule of gentile nations, while the “fullness” refers to those gentiles who will be saved by Christ’s atoning sacrifice. So Luke is telling the reader that Jerusalem will be “trampled on” by gentiles until their time is exhausted. The phrase “trampled on” in the Greek indicates contempt by those doing the trampling. It isn’t just that they reside in the vicinity, but they intend to insult and desecrate the holy city in an outrageous manner. The times of the gentiles will come to a close when Jesus returns to reclaim Jerusalem as His capital city.
So just what exactly is the “abomination of desolation”? In Matthew’s account Jesus tells us where we can find a clue, in the Prophet Daniel’s writings:
Jesus points back to Daniel and his prophecy of the seventy weeks. The abomination is something that happens to desecrate the Temple in Jerusalem, or the “sanctuary fortress”, it also disrupts the regular daily sacrifice. Daniel tells us that a prince who is to come is responsible for this desecration. For this prophecy to be fulfilled there will have to be a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem and a return to the sacrificial system of law.
Paul’s second letter to the Thessalonians also speaks to this future event:
The prophecy of Daniel is beyond the scope of this study. Suffice it to say that this “abomination of desolation” is a major turning point in the birthing process, this is when the waters have broken and serious labor pains begin, so to speak. When this event takes place, the birth of the Kingdom of God on earth is imminent. When those who are living in Judea witness this event happen, they are told that they must flee to the mountains immediately, without stopping to prepare, they are to run for their lives, which makes sense in light of Luke’s rendition that warns about the surrounding armies.
Jesus explains that those days will bring “great tribulation”, the likes of which has never been seen before. The book of Revelation goes into great detail describing the terrible events that will occur during this time as the trumpet and bowl judgments have their affect on earth. Luke’s gospel says that this time encompasses “the days of vengeance” which will fulfill the prophecies that have been written. Curiously both Matthew and Mark’s account include an odd statement- that for the sake of the elect the days will be shortened. This is the only time in the New Testament that this Greek word appears. It comes from a root word meaning to prune. What exactly is meant by shortened days is difficult to say. Are the days themselves actually shorter? Is it a reference that alludes to the rapture? Or is it that the times of tribulation will be shortened for the elect who remain on earth at this time? I tend to lean toward the latter, either by God’s protection or by their death; they will not be swept away by the events that will overtake the rest of humanity. Again Luke leaves this out of his narrative; he seems to indicate that the wrath is upon the people who don’t flee the city of Jerusalem, those who remain will endure great hardship.
Cont'd....
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Post by rt on Jan 14, 2020 10:26:08 GMT -6
There is a curious passage in both Matthew and Luke’s account (Chapter 17), stating that “where the body is, the vultures will gather”.
Now here's something I found interesting about this (underlined) phrase, the word in Luke for "body" in the Greek is σῶμα [soma /so•mah/], this word is used 146 times in the New Testament and never in its use does it refer to a dead body, though it can have that meaning. This word according to Strong's means:
This word comes from the root word ἐκσῴζω, σῴζω [sozo /sode•zo/] which means:
However the word used in Matthew, which is translated as "corpse" is πτῶμα [ptoma /pto•mah/] , it is used exclusively in the New Testament to refer to a dead body, it means:
This word is derived from πίπτω, συμπίπτω [pipto /pip•to/] which means:
I find it very curious that the two accounts where the phrase is used have different Greek words to describe either a corpse or a body. The word in Luke can mean either a dead or living body, but the gist of the word is more positive leaning more toward a salvation from judgment,
While the use of the word "corpse" in Matthew has a negative connotation leaning more toward judgment.
Could the passage in Luke be addressing those who are taken to be saved, while the passage in Matthew addresses those who are taken for judgment? Those taken go to destruction, like those taken in the flood of Noah. While in Luke’s account, those taken are the ones who are rescued, who don’t hesitate or turn back like Lot’s wife who was left for destruction. Keep in mind that Luke wrote from the gentile perspective while Matthew wrote from a Jewish perspective.
Consider this Old Testament verse that seems to indicate judgment:
This then begs the question what is the significance of the "vultures" or as the word in Greek says; "eagles"
The only other time this Greek word is used in the New Testament is in the Revelation:
So what exactly are the "eagles" in Luke and Matthew? Are they simply earthly birds or could they be some divine creature?
Pretty consistently throughout the Old Testament, when the word "eagle is used, it is usually in regards to its flight, its ability to swoop and carry, its strength and its speed in flight. The other reference is in regards to the height at which it builds its nest. There are passages that talk about how it swoops in to catch its prey, but none that talk about it feeding on dead corpses. It certainly appears that Luke wrote in view of salvation, whereas Matthew wrote in view of judgment. What these “eagles” are is unclear.
Another observation is that Luke may have been writing with the rapture or catching up of believers in view, he says early in his account of the discourse that the disciples would long to see “one of the days of the son of Man, and will not see it”. That’s a peculiar statement, what day would the disciples long to see? Yes they would long to see Christ’s return, but I think from Luke’s perspective, he might be speaking of salvation or rescue AKA the rapture. He also calls it “His day” and “the day when the Son of Man is revealed” rather than “the coming of the Son of Man” as Matthew and Mark do.
The word “revealed” in the Greek is almost always used (with two exceptions) throughout the New Testament in conjunction with the uncovering of spiritual truths to those who follow Jesus in faith. Luke goes on to say that this revealing is similar to what happened in Noah’s day; the world was going on as usual, conducting the affairs of life as if nothing was coming. Even though Noah had spent a hundred years building the ark, they were oblivious, until the day Noah entered the ark, and the flood destroyed them. (A curious fact is that Noah entered the ark 7 days before the flood let loose (see Genesis 7:1-4). He also compares it to Lot, when he was being led from Sodom, and those left in the city were destroyed. Some are rescued from destruction and others are left to be destroyed. Perhaps these similarities go too far, but the judgment that goes with the story of Noah was upon the whole earth, while the judgment that involved Lot was localized to the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. Could Luke be alluding to the rescue of those who are caught up at the rapture (seven years before Christ’s return) like Noah, rescued from the earth and those, like Lot who are rescued from Jerusalem at His return which is a more localized judgment?
Matthew on the other hand seems to point more towards those who are destroyed rather than those who are saved. He uses the term “the coming of the Son of Man.” He also uses the Noah comparison, saying that when Noah entered the ark, those who remained outside did not understand until the flood came and took them away. (Mathew 24: 37-41). Though Matthew does go on to say that the faithful servant needs to remain alert and ready for the Lord’s return. This faithful servant who is busy doing the Lord’s work won’t have his home broken into by the “thief” (Matthew 24: 42-51) they will not be destroyed; rather it is the unfaithful servant who will be surprised by the “thief” who will be destroyed.
Both Luke and Matthew have Christ’s physical return to earth in view, the comparison to Noah that both use, both point to the “coming of the Son of Man”, which in the Noah analogy is when the flood comes and takes them (the wicked) away. However as mentioned earlier, Luke focuses on those rescued, while Matthew focuses on those lost.
Continuing on with the account:
Jesus continues in His answer, telling His disciples that after the tribulation of “those days”; let us pause momentarily and remind ourselves what “those days” refers to. Those are the days following the abomination of desolation that Jesus just got done describing:
Immediately after the abomination of desolation takes place and people flee Judea then the powers of the heavens will be “shaken”, the sun and moon will be darkened and stars will fall from the sky. This aligns perfectly with the Trumpet and Bowl judgments and their effects on the heavens and earth as described by the disciple John in the Revelation, though here in the gospels they are lumped together, rather than delineated as in the Revelation. (See Revelation 8-12 and 16-18). Just what does it mean that the “powers of heaven are shaken”.
*The following Old Testament passages speak of what is likely this same time period:
Is 13:10; 24:23; Ezek 32:7; Joel 2:10, 31; 3:15f; Amos 5:20; 8:9; Zeph 1:15
Are these powers the sun, moon and stars? Perhaps; however it appears that the use of the word in this passage would indicate a supernatural power. Consider the following as possible evidence of this phenomenon:
Whatever it means, Luke tells us that the response of those on earth will be one of utter fear at the expectation of what is coming upon the earth. These events are unprecedented in their scale and intensity, like nothing that has ever occurred before.
Then the Son of Man will appear, Matthew connects this with “the sign of the Son of Man”, what that sign may be is anyone’s guess. Mankind will observe with their eyes, Jesus coming in the clouds in great power and glory! He (Jesus) sends forth His angels to gather His elect, Matthew says from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other, while Mark says from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven. Luke says something altogether different; “But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
Let’s look at Matthew and Mark first
Many make the claim that this “gathering” of the elect is in fact the rapture, claiming proof of a post tribulation event. However you will notice that here in these verses that the Son of Man sends His angels to do the gathering. While what is called the rapture event shows Jesus Himself doing the gathering:
This passage in the Greek (interlinear Bible) shows that it is Jesus who speaks with the voice of the chief messenger or archangel, it is Jesus who speaks with the voice of the trumpet of God, it is He Himself that gathers those who are in Him, not angels. This event spoken of in Matthew and Mark is a different gathering, a gathering of His armies.
Matthew tells us that the tribes of earth will mourn; John says the same in the Revelation
All of mankind will realize at this time that Jesus is who He claimed to be, hence the mourning. It is difficult to imagine the sight of it, and how stricken those on earth will be at our Lord’s appearance to strike down those gathered to make war against Him and His people. What a terrible and frightening event that will be for those who oppose Him on that day.
The parallel passage in Luke keeps with his earlier perspective, focusing on those who have faith rather than those who do not. He adds in verse 28 of chapter 21 :
“But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
What “things” is Luke referring back to? The things that Jesus had told them would serve as signs of His return as discussed earlier. When these things begin to happen recognize that your redemption draws near. Again we see that Luke is not focused on those that will fall under judgment, but on those who will be redeemed. He is talking about the gathering together of believers in the rapture event, not the gathering for war.
Cont'd...
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Post by rt on Jan 14, 2020 10:30:09 GMT -6
There are many prophecy scholars that believe that this parable is talking about the nation of Israel’s political rebirth, which occurred in 1947 after World War 2. They arrive at this claim because the fig tree in scripture is analogous to the nation of Israel (see Jeremiah 24:2-10, Isaiah 28:2-6, Hosea 9:10, Micah 7:1-2, Matthew 21:18-19, Mark 11:13-14). However these passages do not address the nation as it exists politically, but rather how it exists spiritually. It also doesn’t make sense in regard to Luke’s rendition which includes “all the trees”.
The parable may only mean that just like one is able to deduce that summer is near when the fig tree begins to sprout its leaves in the spring, so too can one deduce that the Kingdom of God is near when the signs that Jesus describes begin to happen.
If one were to ascribe deeper meaning I would suggest that since Jesus, only passages earlier in the gospels, appears to identify the fig tree as Israel’s religious leaders, then it is logical that the fig tree here is also speaking of Israel’s faithful, those who are upright who are spiritual leaders in Israel. The point of the parable is not Israel’s birth as a nation, but its spiritual rebirth. The fig tree is revived and about to produce fruit, it is green and tender putting forth leaves (springtime) it is a pre-harvest tree.
Luke says all the trees, thus when all the trees of the region begin to revive and are about to put forth spiritual fruit, then recognize that the kingdom of God is at hand.
These signs are a harbinger for the imminent return of Christ which will bring with it the summer of harvest for Israel, a renewed relationship with their God, when they will again be upright and righteous in His eyes, when they will again be the head of nations, who will serve their God in Jerusalem, therefore it is the rebirth of the nation spiritually not politically that the parable would be talking about.
The scholars who believe that it refers to the 1947 political rebirth of the nation of Israel also claim that since the parable states that “this generation will not pass away until all these things take place” that it means that the return of Christ is tied to this timeframe. The members of that generation will live to see these events fulfilled. So a person born in 1947 would be 72 this year (2019), which would mean that the latest date the return of Christ could happen would be around 2047, given a generous 100 year life span. However I do not believe that is what the parable is speaking of. But rather that the generation that is alive on earth when these events begin to happen, will have members of it that remain alive to see the Kingdom come.
The next part of the Olivet discourse is somewhat different in the various gospels, Matthew adds more detail. Luke refers to part of what Matthew says earlier in Luke 17 rather than Luke 21. Remember that Luke is not writing as an eyewitness to events, but as a reporter of events.
In Matthew and Mark, Jesus tells the disciples that no one knows the day or the hour not the angels, not even the Son of Man, only God the father knows. Luke curiously leaves that out. The “day” in question is the day in which the Lord is coming, in others words when Jesus returns (see Matthew 24:42, 44 above). Yet in Luke, Jesus assures those who stay on guard, saying that they will not have that day sprung on them like a trap. He continues on telling them to keep on alert, praying to have the strength to escape these events about to take place. Escape to where? These events, according to verse 35, will come upon all those who dwell on the face of the earth. To escape one would have to leave the earth, which is precisely what is indicated in the passage when it says “to stand before the Son of Man”, presumably in heaven. I believe Luke’s version alludes to the rapture here, indicating that those who are on guard and alert, standing strong in faith, not weighed down by the troubles and entrapments of life will escape “all these things that are about to take place.”
And yet again Matthew and Mark to a lesser degree focus on those who are disobedient, who lack faith. Because I have already covered the part about Noah and those taken and those left, I will not rehash that here again. The main emphasis of this part of the discourse is that those who claim to be part of the household of faith need to be vigilant in their faith, standing firm and unwavering and on alert, living out their faith as if their Lord could return at any time. They need to be living in a manner that is pleasing to their Lord, so that when he comes He will find them taking care of His household rather than neglecting and abusing it. Those who remain alert and awake will not be overtaken by the events that will come upon the earth.
The unfaithful slave who is found wanting when his master returns is given a stern and frightening warning:
Not unlike a similar warning given to the Church at Sardis in the Revelation:
Yet in this same passage and the following one addressed to the church at Philadelphia, like in Luke, there is assurance given to those who remain faithful,
Since the days of His disciples, this has been the call to arms for every follower Of Christ, to remain awake and alert, remain vigilant, and on guard praying for strength to escape all these things which are about to take place!
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Jan 14, 2020 19:50:46 GMT -6
I know others have posted study concerning this topic, I offer my own, using parallel passages, let me know what you think.
The Olivet DiscourseIt appears that Jesus and the disciples retired to the Mount of Olives for the evening after a day of teaching in the temple (Luke 21:37-38). As they were leaving the temple the disciples remarked how great the temple was, but Jesus tells them it will be torn down and utterly destroyed. Some of the disciples later, on the Mount of Olives privately ask Him questions regarding His statement. Mark’s account says it was Peter, James and John and Andrew who asked. Neither Matthew nor Luke specifies who. Matthew’s account says they ask about the sign of His coming and the end of the age, while Mark and Luke’s account seems to refer back to the temple destruction and what the sign would be of this fulfillment. It is a commonly held belief that the book of Luke was not written as an eyewitness account, but that Luke was a contemporary of the apostle Paul who penned his epistles some time after Christ’s death and resurrection. Luke wrote more as a reporter would write after conducting research and speaking with eyewitnesses after the fact. It is also believed that Luke wrote the book of acts. Christ’s answer is in response to the question asked by the disciples (underlined in passages above). Though the question was asked in the context of the destruction of the temple, the answer Jesus gives encompasses His second coming and the events leading up to that event, including the destruction of the temple which history tells us, happened in 70AD. I believe that the answer Jesus gives demonstrates that the destruction of the temple is integral to his return to earth at His second coming, demonstrating that the temple era would come to an end while the church would become the temple of the Holy Spirit on earth, the footstool of God’s throne. Matthew’s account however shows the disciples asking about Christ’s coming and the end of the age. Earlier in Matthew 16:27 Jesus talks to His disciples about His “coming”: The disciples were told that some among them would not see death until they see the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom. This would of course refer to John, who witnessed Christ’s return in his vision on Patmos, when he received and recorded the Revelation of Christ. However they did not understand that at the time. Jesus had also just finished telling them that He was to suffer and also afterward when they witnessed the transfiguration, Jesus told them he would rise from the dead (Matthew 17:9). Jesus also foretold His death and resurrection in the following: So the disciples were told that Jesus would die and be raised from the dead. They also understood that Jesus was going to “come” in glory and establish His kingdom on earth. They appear to acknowledge that the destruction of the temple is connected in some way to that kingdom age. What level of understanding they had is up for debate. But they obviously needed clarification, hence their question. In response to the question Jesus highlights certain things that He calls the beginning of birth pains: 1. Deception: He says to the disciples: “See to it that no one misleads you”- Many would come in His name, claiming to be the Christ, Luke adds that they will claim that the time is near. In fact many will be led astray, but those who follow Jesus should not follow after them. 2. Wars and rumors of wars: Each account has Jesus warning them that those wars and rumors of wars must happen, but that they shouldn’t be frightened by them, that is not yet the end. All three accounts include elaboration by Jesus saying that nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom. Luke’s account uses the word “disturbances” rather than “rumors of wars”, this word in the Greek; ἀκαταστασία [akatastasia /ak•at•as•tah•see•ah/], means instability or state of disorder. 3. Earthquakes: in various unspecified places, Luke adds the descriptor “great” to describe this sign. 4. Famines: Also described as occurring in various places. Luke adds plagues to this sign, which in the Greek is the word; λοιμός [loimos /loy•mos/], meaning pestilence. 5: Terrors and great signs from heaven: Luke is the only one to include this sign here in the narrative. Jesus calls these signs, as noted earlier, merely the beginning of birth pains. These appear to be signs that affect the general population. Jesus uses the metaphor of a birth to describe the birth of His kingdom, which is what the disciples were awaiting, the Kingdom age, when the Messiah would rein on earth. Cont'd... Good Post overall RT, nicely done. 1.) I think the underlined portion refers to THREE QUESTIONS, when will these things happen is asking about the Temples Destruction, then they add what will be THE SIGN {Key} of your coming and of the End of the age. This is Jewish speak for when will the Temple be destroyed that you just spoke about, what are the SIGNS of your [Second] Coming AND when will the Age of Sinful man end [or the Messiah take root as our leader in Jerusalem in the Messianic Kingdom]. So in the next 50 or so verses we need to see Jesus answer these three questions. 2.) True, I think John saw Jesus' coming in Glory in his visions, but Jesus returned after he went to heaven for all the Disciples to see, isn't that in his Glory ? He told Mary touch me not for I have not yet ascended to the Father {to offer the Sacrifice} and thus Mary's touching would have profaned the Sacrifice via Sin Flesh. But 8 days later Jesus told Thomas to touch his wounds. 3.) The Birth Pangs are what leads us to the coming 70th week troubles, so all of the birth pangs deliver the "BABY" or 70th Week. I will just go post by post, its easier that way.......... |
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Jan 14, 2020 20:31:53 GMT -6
Jesus continues with His answer, describing what His disciples themselves could expect, these signs are more personal, specifically directed toward His disciples, but more generally can also be ascribed to all who would follow Jesus since that time. These signs are for believers, those who are part of the body of Christ or the Church. 1. Tribulation and persecution 2. Martyrdom 3. Many will stumble in faith (fall away), betraying one another 4. False prophets will arise and mislead many 5. Increase in lawlessness, causing the love of many to grow cold 6. Gospel will be preached in the whole world These signs call for endurance of faith as believers, amidst whatever hardship comes. The response of the one who endures in faith during difficult times will stand as a testimony to those who hate them and who accuse them, be they members of state or members of one’s own family. Jesus will provide for their defense. Though they may lose their life in this world as a result, by their endurance of faith they will gain eternal life. At this point all three gospels, change course and point to one specific sign, this sign appears to be time sensitive; Jesus calls it “the end” in Matthew’s gospel, it is the event that will bring about the birth of His kingdom on earth. This sign is also directed toward a specific group of people- those residing in Judea. Luke’s gospel does not point to the Abomination of desolation as Matthew and Mark do. Luke says that the sign is when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies. Some claim that this shows that Jesus is specifically answering the question about when the temple would be destroyed in 70 AD rather than pointing to His return to earth. But remember that Luke is not an eyewitness to this conversation; he is gathering information from eyewitness accounts after the fact. The context is the same and therefore we should not assume that this account is directed to a different part of the question. There is also no need to see it as a contradiction, both things could be true; armies may surround Jerusalem at the same time that the abomination of desolation occurs. Matthew and Mark seem to identify more with the Jews of the narrative , while Luke may be seeing it from a gentile perspective, warning those outside of Judaism what to look for. In fact Luke is the only one who mentions gentiles and speaks of the Judean people in terms that he does not appear to associate with. There are many scholars who believe that Luke was in fact a gentile believer. Luke is also the only one who mentions that Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled. The “times “of the gentiles should not be confused with the “fullness” of the gentiles that Paul speaks of in Romans 11:25. The “times” of the gentiles, refers to the rule of gentile nations, while the “fullness” refers to those gentiles who will be saved by Christ’s atoning sacrifice. So Luke is telling the reader that Jerusalem will be “trampled on” by gentiles until their time is exhausted. The phrase “trampled on” in the Greek indicates contempt by those doing the trampling. It isn’t just that they reside in the vicinity, but they intend to insult and desecrate the holy city in an outrageous manner. The times of the gentiles will come to a close when Jesus returns to reclaim Jerusalem as His capital city. So just what exactly is the “abomination of desolation”? In Matthew’s account Jesus tells us where we can find a clue, in the Prophet Daniel’s writings: Jesus points back to Daniel and his prophecy of the seventy weeks. The abomination is something that happens to desecrate the Temple in Jerusalem, or the “sanctuary fortress”, it also disrupts the regular daily sacrifice. Daniel tells us that a prince who is to come is responsible for this desecration. For this prophecy to be fulfilled there will have to be a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem and a return to the sacrificial system of law. Paul’s second letter to the Thessalonians also speaks to this future event: The prophecy of Daniel is beyond the scope of this study. Suffice it to say that this “abomination of desolation” is a major turning point in the birthing process, this is when the waters have broken and serious labor pains begin, so to speak. When this event takes place, the birth of the Kingdom of God on earth is imminent. When those who are living in Judea witness this event happen, they are told that they must flee to the mountains immediately, without stopping to prepare, they are to run for their lives, which makes sense in light of Luke’s rendition that warns about the surrounding armies. Jesus explains that those days will bring “great tribulation”, the likes of which has never been seen before. The book of Revelation goes into great detail describing the terrible events that will occur during this time as the trumpet and bowl judgments have their affect on earth. Luke’s gospel says that this time encompasses “the days of vengeance” which will fulfill the prophecies that have been written. Curiously both Matthew and Mark’s account include an odd statement- that for the sake of the elect the days will be shortened. This is the only time in the New Testament that this Greek word appears. It comes from a root word meaning to prune. What exactly is meant by shortened days is difficult to say. Are the days themselves actually shorter? Is it a reference that alludes to the rapture? Or is it that the times of tribulation will be shortened for the elect who remain on earth at this time? I tend to lean toward the latter, either by God’s protection or by their death; they will not be swept away by the events that will overtake the rest of humanity. Again Luke leaves this out of his narrative; he seems to indicate that the wrath is upon the people who don’t flee the city of Jerusalem, those who remain will endure great hardship. Cont'd.... 1.) I agree, this is about the disciples until we get to verse 11, then it seems to point towards the entire 2000 some odd year Church Age Saints like the Nation vs Nation, Kingdom vs. Kingdom, the famines and earthquakes all point towards the Church Age Period leading up the the Rapture then the 70th week troubles which the Church Age Births. Then the AoD will indeed be one of the SIGNS that Jesus' Return is nigh at hand. 2.) Jesus answers the 70 AD question in verses 4-6, he tells them there will be wars and rumors of war, but don't be deceived, the end is not yet (even though it looks like the Zechariah 14 events at the end times). The John 5:43 prophecy is thus fulfilled her, the Pharisees/Jewish leaders knowing Rome was the Fourth Beast put forth Christs/Messiahs as Jesus predicted they would, whilst they rejected him who actually came in the Fathers name. But as Jesus said, the End is NOT YET.....So verse 6 ends the 70 AD event, everything else is AFTER that point in time. The fullness of the Gentiles means the Gentile Church's mission is over, the mantle is then given back to Israel in that God in the last days will pour out His spirit on Israel again, so says Zechariah 12:10 and 13:1-5 as well as Joel ch. 2. I don't think it refers to the rule of the Gentiles per se, because the Gentiles have always ruled pretty much. I think its referring to God the Potter using the VESSEL He so chooses, as Paul spoke of in Romans. The Rapture ends the times of the Gentiles, its not the same as Rev. 11 where the Gentiles Conquer Jerusalem. 3.) I am going to try and make people {you} think here. As per Daniels 70th week, I agree, that is when the Abomination of Desolation happens. But I have a question, how can you desecrate or profane a Temple that's already profaned/desecrated ? THINK ABOUT IT............If the Jews are offering Animal Sacrifices then they are themselves profaining the Temple, because Jesus Christ has OFFERED once and for all THE SACRIFICE to cleanse all mankind. So did Gabriel really say that the AoD would profane the Temple by stopping animal sacrifices or was Gabriel relaying a message to Daniel about "THE SACRIFICE" Jesus being "taken away" after the Jewish people {1/3 repent in Zechariah 13:8-9} repent and start worshiping Jesus in the Temple of God BEFORE the Day of the Lord starts as Malachi 4:5-6 points to, it says Elijah will be sent back by God BEFORE the Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord to turn Israel back unto God. So the Jews repent {1/3 do} they start worshiping their Messiah in the Temple {Naturally} and then the False Prophet {Jewish High Priest} stops the Sacrifice/takes it away, and then places an Image of the Beast in the Temple..........well Rev. 13 says this is what happens, the 2nd Beast places an Image of the Beast in the Temple and demand all men worship him or die. So is Jesus Worship THAT SACRIFICE which is taken away ? I think so, why would the messenger of God refer to an unholy Sacrifice ? When Jesus is THE SACRIFICE ? That which is birthed is the 70th week troubles however it could be about BIRTHING the Second Coming, thus I would have to recalibrate a wee bit, but I must study it. 4.) I kinda answered 4 in the last answer. The AoD is indeed a SIGN POST unto the Jews to Flee Judea. |
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Jan 14, 2020 20:46:58 GMT -6
There is a curious passage in both Matthew and Luke’s account (Chapter 17), stating that “where the body is, the vultures will gather”. Now here's something I found interesting about this (underlined) phrase, the word in Luke for "body" in the Greek is σῶμα [soma /so•mah/], this word is used 146 times in the New Testament and never in its use does it refer to a dead body, though it can have that meaning. This word according to Strong's means: This word comes from the root word ἐκσῴζω, σῴζω [sozo /sode•zo/] which means: However the word used in Matthew, which is translated as "corpse" is πτῶμα [ptoma /pto•mah/] , it is used exclusively in the New Testament to refer to a dead body, it means: This word is derived from πίπτω, συμπίπτω [pipto /pip•to/] which means: I find it very curious that the two accounts where the phrase is used have different Greek words to describe either a corpse or a body. The word in Luke can mean either a dead or living body, but the gist of the word is more positive leaning more toward a salvation from judgment, While the use of the word "corpse" in Matthew has a negative connotation leaning more toward judgment. Could the passage in Luke be addressing those who are taken to be saved, while the passage in Matthew addresses those who are taken for judgment? Those taken go to destruction, like those taken in the flood of Noah. While in Luke’s account, those taken are the ones who are rescued, who don’t hesitate or turn back like Lot’s wife who was left for destruction. Keep in mind that Luke wrote from the gentile perspective while Matthew wrote from a Jewish perspective. Consider this Old Testament verse that seems to indicate judgment: This then begs the question what is the significance of the "vultures" or as the word in Greek says; "eagles" The only other time this Greek word is used in the New Testament is in the Revelation: So what exactly are the "eagles" in Luke and Matthew? Are they simply earthly birds or could they be some divine creature? Pretty consistently throughout the Old Testament, when the word "eagle is used, it is usually in regards to its flight, its ability to swoop and carry, its strength and its speed in flight. The other reference is in regards to the height at which it builds its nest. There are passages that talk about how it swoops in to catch its prey, but none that talk about it feeding on dead corpses. It certainly appears that Luke wrote in view of salvation, whereas Matthew wrote in view of judgment. What these “eagles” are is unclear. Another observation is that Luke may have been writing with the rapture or catching up of believers in view, he says early in his account of the discourse that the disciples would long to see “one of the days of the son of Man, and will not see it”. That’s a peculiar statement, what day would the disciples long to see? Yes they would long to see Christ’s return, but I think from Luke’s perspective, he might be speaking of salvation or rescue AKA the rapture. He also calls it “His day” and “the day when the Son of Man is revealed” rather than “the coming of the Son of Man” as Matthew and Mark do. The word “revealed” in the Greek is almost always used (with two exceptions) throughout the New Testament in conjunction with the uncovering of spiritual truths to those who follow Jesus in faith. Luke goes on to say that this revealing is similar to what happened in Noah’s day; the world was going on as usual, conducting the affairs of life as if nothing was coming. Even though Noah had spent a hundred years building the ark, they were oblivious, until the day Noah entered the ark, and the flood destroyed them. (A curious fact is that Noah entered the ark 7 days before the flood let loose (see Genesis 7:1-4). He also compares it to Lot, when he was being led from Sodom, and those left in the city were destroyed. Some are rescued from destruction and others are left to be destroyed. Perhaps these similarities go too far, but the judgment that goes with the story of Noah was upon the whole earth, while the judgment that involved Lot was localized to the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. Could Luke be alluding to the rescue of those who are caught up at the rapture (seven years before Christ’s return) like Noah, rescued from the earth and those, like Lot who are rescued from Jerusalem at His return which is a more localized judgment? Matthew on the other hand seems to point more towards those who are destroyed rather than those who are saved. He uses the term “the coming of the Son of Man.” He also uses the Noah comparison, saying that when Noah entered the ark, those who remained outside did not understand until the flood came and took them away. (Mathew 24: 37-41). Though Matthew does go on to say that the faithful servant needs to remain alert and ready for the Lord’s return. This faithful servant who is busy doing the Lord’s work won’t have his home broken into by the “thief” (Matthew 24: 42-51) they will not be destroyed; rather it is the unfaithful servant who will be surprised by the “thief” who will be destroyed. Both Luke and Matthew have Christ’s physical return to earth in view, the comparison to Noah that both use, both point to the “coming of the Son of Man”, which in the Noah analogy is when the flood comes and takes them (the wicked) away. However as mentioned earlier, Luke focuses on those rescued, while Matthew focuses on those lost. Continuing on with the account: Jesus continues in His answer, telling His disciples that after the tribulation of “those days”; let us pause momentarily and remind ourselves what “those days” refers to. Those are the days following the abomination of desolation that Jesus just got done describing: Immediately after the abomination of desolation takes place and people flee Judea then the powers of the heavens will be “shaken”, the sun and moon will be darkened and stars will fall from the sky. This aligns perfectly with the Trumpet and Bowl judgments and their effects on the heavens and earth as described by the disciple John in the Revelation, though here in the gospels they are lumped together, rather than delineated as in the Revelation. (See Revelation 8-12 and 16-18). Just what does it mean that the “powers of heaven are shaken”. *The following Old Testament passages speak of what is likely this same time period: Is 13:10; 24:23; Ezek 32:7; Joel 2:10, 31; 3:15f; Amos 5:20; 8:9; Zeph 1:15 Are these powers the sun, moon and stars? Perhaps; however it appears that the use of the word in this passage would indicate a supernatural power. Consider the following as possible evidence of this phenomenon: Whatever it means, Luke tells us that the response of those on earth will be one of utter fear at the expectation of what is coming upon the earth. These events are unprecedented in their scale and intensity, like nothing that has ever occurred before. Then the Son of Man will appear, Matthew connects this with “the sign of the Son of Man”, what that sign may be is anyone’s guess. Mankind will observe with their eyes, Jesus coming in the clouds in great power and glory! He (Jesus) sends forth His angels to gather His elect, Matthew says from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other, while Mark says from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven. Luke says something altogether different; “But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.” Let’s look at Matthew and Mark first Many make the claim that this “gathering” of the elect is in fact the rapture, claiming proof of a post tribulation event. However you will notice that here in these verses that the Son of Man sends His angels to do the gathering. While what is called the rapture event shows Jesus Himself doing the gathering: This passage in the Greek (interlinear Bible) shows that it is Jesus who speaks with the voice of the chief messenger or archangel, it is Jesus who speaks with the voice of the trumpet of God, it is He Himself that gathers those who are in Him, not angels. This event spoken of in Matthew and Mark is a different gathering, a gathering of His armies. Matthew tells us that the tribes of earth will mourn; John says the same in the Revelation All of mankind will realize at this time that Jesus is who He claimed to be, hence the mourning. It is difficult to imagine the sight of it, and how stricken those on earth will be at our Lord’s appearance to strike down those gathered to make war against Him and His people. What a terrible and frightening event that will be for those who oppose Him on that day. The parallel passage in Luke keeps with his earlier perspective, focusing on those who have faith rather than those who do not. He adds in verse 28 of chapter 21 : “But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.” What “things” is Luke referring back to? The things that Jesus had told them would serve as signs of His return as discussed earlier. When these things begin to happen recognize that your redemption draws near. Again we see that Luke is not focused on those that will fall under judgment, but on those who will be redeemed. He is talking about the gathering together of believers in the rapture event, not the gathering for war. Cont'd... 1.) I will answer this whole post with one descriptor because I think it answers all of the questions here. Jesus is pointing them to where he will "COME FROM" or be at, he telling them look not in the Desert or the Secret Rooms for me, but look in the Eastern Skies AND look for the sign of the Eagles {so to speak} they are where the Corpse is at......the End Time Jews who have Repented should not be looking for a Messianic Jesus in the Desert {Satan wants to trick them to come out of Petra where he can kill them} or in a Secret Store Room, he is telling them where to look, hes coming IN THE SKIES {from the East} when he Comes and he also tells them a "RIDDLE" about the Eagles being gathered at the Corpse. We can see what hes speaking about in the Rev. 19 Marriage Supper. Rev. 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. The BIRDS/Fowls/Eagles will be gathered at the corpse, so I see this as Jesus telling them the Church and him will be at the Marriage Supper, which is Armageddon. Not in the Desert or in a Secret Chamber. Its a sorta clue via a riddle. |
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Post by rt on Jan 15, 2020 8:55:32 GMT -6
rondonmonson , This certainly is a different take, I agree it is somewhat of a riddle, your understanding could certainly fit with the passage in Matthew, the coming of Christ was the context after all, so you could be right about that, and again it fits with the Greek use of the word as well and Matthew's focus on those taken in destruction. However it doesn't seem to fit with Luke's account, in which the disciple's question follows the bit about one person being taken and one left, the context there has that in focus, the "where Lord?" question is asking where will these people be taken, and where will they be left. Matthew puts the "one taken and one left" later in the narrative, which does support your claim, so should we assume Luke's account is messed up? Did he get it wrong? I don't think so, I think Luke sees it through a different lens, as I have pointed out, his focus is on those who are rescued, so perhaps Luke is giving us more insight into the riddle???
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