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Post by marshall on Nov 21, 2019 13:30:48 GMT -6
I am studying what the BIBLE has to say about life after the first death and have run into lots of conclusions based on traditions or non-biblical stories. I'd like to sort through what is biblically stated, implied or left unexplained.
To be more specific, I am particularly searching for the HUMAN soul and not Angelic beings or the Beast of Revelation whom I do not believe are HUMAN, but take on human form. Some of those claiming all humans have an immortal soul point to these as evidence.
I have a basic framework for Rulers, Powers and Principalities as follows:
God - Eternal past, present and future. Characteristics are Omniscience, Omnipotence and Omnipresence, perhaps omnipresent across time as well as location and therefore always in an eternal Present at all places and times.
Angels - Created Beings with immortal souls. Some to serve and praise the Lord and others to follow Satan to eternal torment for rebellion. Lacks all the Omni characteristics, though seemingly very powerful to humans.
Hum ans - Created Beings with the opportunity for Eternal Life through faith in Jesus Christ.
Animals - Created Beings with no soul or at least beyond the first death.
I am open to being right or wrong based on inerrantcy of scripture as originally given while aware that translations and changes in language may hinder understanding of the original revelation.
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Post by mike on Nov 21, 2019 13:48:39 GMT -6
Hi marshall and welcome to the forum. One thing I'd ask is that you first familiarize yourself with our rules if you havent already. You question(s) will likely result in many different opinions with supporting scripture and extra-biblical sources. To my knowledge there are 3 views on the hereafter (Eternal Torment, Restoration, & Annihilation) |
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Post by marshall on Nov 21, 2019 13:59:00 GMT -6
Hi marshall and welcome to the forum. One thing I'd ask is that you first familiarize yourself with our rules if you havent already. You question(s) will likely result in many different opinions with supporting scripture and extra-biblical sources. To my knowledge there are 3 views on the hereafter (Eternal Torment, Restoration, & Annihilation) I read the rules as soon as I got access. I am not pushing for other to interpret as I have. I'm actually searching to see what beliefs are true and knowable from scripture and which are mere speculation.
It's much like the doctrine on the age of accountability. It is widely supported, but with an absence of direct biblical revelation. Inference is as close as you can get to support. I'm OK with not knowing all there is, but not in thinking I know something which has no specific biblical support.
I enjoy speculating as well, but only when it is properly labeled as such.
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Post by boraddict on Nov 22, 2019 10:00:18 GMT -6
Hi marshall, please note that the following is my personal analysis, and it seems that there are two sets of deaths as in spiritual and physical:
I)
1) spiritual death wherein an individual is separated from God such as Lucifer being cast out, etc.
II) Then, when a person is physically born in to mortality
2) spiritual death wherein an individual does not know God
III) Then when spiritually born as in knowing God after being born into mortality
3) spiritual death wherein an individual rejects God after having been born again. That is (II) an individual is born physically and (III) then born again, then (3) rejects God to follow Satan whole heartily without remorse etc.
4) physical death as in dying of old age etc.
5) physical death as in dying after being resurrected. This physical death is referenced in Rev. 20:6 wherein those whom are resurrected in the 1st resurrection are not subject to the second physical death (5). Meaning, that those of the 2nd resurrection may or may not be subject to the second physical death. Secondly, please notice in Rev. 20:12 that there are multiple books one of which is the book of life. Additionally, those of the book of life have salvation and as a result they are not judged. Thus, the dead whom are judged in Rev. 20:12 are those whom are spiritually dead (2 and/or 3). Also, please notice in Rev. 20:13-14 that death and hell are the death and hell of Rev. 6:8 that are the beast and false prophet of Rev. 19:20 whom are cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:10). Thus, it is clear in Rev. 20:13 that the beast and false prophet whom are refereed to as death and hell in that verse are delivered up to be judged. Then, they having been resurrected in the 2nd resurrection and judged, are cast back into the lake of fire. Evidence to support this explanation is that the beast and false prophet were never in the book of life; they were never spiritually alive in Christ. Therefore, they never were born again (III) to die a second spiritual death(3). Therefore, they died a physical death (4) and then a second physical death (5); the death of the resurrected body.
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Post by mike on Nov 22, 2019 12:08:40 GMT -6
I am studying what the BIBLE has to say about life after the first death and have run into lots of conclusions based on traditions or non-biblical stories. I'd like to sort through what is biblically stated, implied or left unexplained.
To be more specific, I am particularly searching for the HUMAN soul and not Angelic beings or the Beast of Revelation whom I do not believe are HUMAN, but take on human form. Some of those claiming all humans have an immortal soul point to these as evidence.
I have a basic framework for Rulers, Powers and Principalities as follows:
God - Eternal past, present and future. Characteristics are Omniscience, Omnipotence and Omnipresence, perhaps omnipresent across time as well as location and therefore always in an eternal Present at all places and times.
Angels - Created Beings with immortal souls. Some to serve and praise the Lord and others to follow Satan to eternal torment for rebellion. Lacks all the Omni characteristics, though seemingly very powerful to humans.
Hum ans - Created Beings with the opportunity for Eternal Life through faith in Jesus Christ.
Animals - Created Beings with no soul or at least beyond the first death.
I am open to being right or wrong based on inerrantcy of scripture as originally given while aware that translations and changes in language may hinder understanding of the original revelation.
Personally I do not put any stock in people who claim to have to died and (fill in the blank). In some cases people have claimed to have visited heaven, yet never mention seeing God/Jesus which to me is an issue. I wont quote the many verses in the bible (Rev 1:10, 2Cor 12:2-4...) but each biblical account of those seeing into the spirit world, each do their best to describe what they've seen in terms that can be understood. Often very difficult to accomplish we are left to only picture these visions in our own minds eye. If i'm not mistaken the earliest account we have in scriptural is in Job 14:13-15 & 19:25-27. I could be wrong though  I also am drawn to Dan 12:2 So we do see here that Job is looking forward to the day when all his sorrow will be eliminated and Daniel tells us some to life others to contempt. Angels are created and live outside of time. Now could God 'eliminate' any one or all of them at a moments notice? But I believe they are represented very well in Revelation so it is likely that they are created yet without end. We learn that Jesus explained to the Sadducees that the dead will rise and be like the angels. Not become angels but be like them. - Mark 12:25, Matt 22:30, but I think Luke records it in the best detail - Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. There is more in 1Cor 15 giving us more detail as to type of bodies and flesh and the order of things, etc.. The seed sown is not what is raised, thank you Lord! Yet we will be like Him when we see Him. I love that we will be who we are, recognizable yet raised imperishable. We delve into that dialogue quite a bit here There is a good write of the topic including some historical & cultural context on Bible Hub as well: Resurrection Bible Hub |
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Post by marshall on Nov 24, 2019 4:06:03 GMT -6
marshall, mike, boraddict, I thank all of you for your comments. I am currently deciding on the best method of compiling a Biblically based research data collection method. I am leaning toward a spreadsheet because I am familiar with EXEL and it is easy to move and insert scriptures at the appropriate location as well as easy to highlight the significant portions of text while preserving the context. I am committed to working on this, though I may be a little slow at first as I set up my format. I will use Bible Gateway as a source for the scripture since it allows cut and paste as well as easy search of alternate translations. Marshall
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Post by marshall on Nov 24, 2019 4:31:10 GMT -6
GOD Eternal past, present and future. Characteristics are Omniscience, Omnipotence and Omnipresence, perhaps omnipresent across time as well as location and therefore always in an eternal Present at all places and times. ANGELS Created Beings with immortal souls. Some to serve and praise the Lord and others to follow Satan to eternal torment for rebellion. Lacks all the Omni characteristics, though seemingly very powerful to humans. MANKIND Created Beings with the opportunity for Eternal Life through faith in Jesus Christ. Psalm 8:4-6 New International Version (NIV) 4 what is mankind that you are mindful of them, human beings that you care for them?
5 You have made them a little lower than the angels[c]
and crowned them[d] with glory and honor. 6 You made them rulers over the works of your hands; ANIMALS Created Beings with no soul or at least beyond the first death.
This is a test of transferring an Exel Spreadsheet to this forum. Is it acceptable and readable?
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Post by mike on Nov 24, 2019 10:02:29 GMT -6
Yes it is readable and fairly simple to follow.
Couple comments on the content.
1. Mankind - is a spirit, possessing a soul 'housed' (tabernacled) in flesh.
2. I believe animals posses a soul but no spirit. Although the beast in Rev 13:2 is described as leopard,feet like a bear, mouth like a lion.
Also some angels (cherubim Eze 1:5-14) are described to 'look like' a man, lion, ox, eagle so I believe animals were created in the image of angels. God created man after his image, whose image are the animals created after?
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Post by boraddict on Dec 1, 2019 3:24:30 GMT -6
Interestingly, the man was created by God from the dust of the earth (Gen. 2:7) but the woman was created by God from her man (Gen. 2:22). Perhaps that has a metaphorical meaning such as God created man from the ancient earth and woman from modern man.
I say this because scripture rising from the dust of the earth is sealed words from the past made understandable in the future.
So, Adam created from the dust is Adam from the past made available in the future (as in 6,000 years ago). Indicating, that Adam was created far in advance of Eve who was created 6,000 years ago. Because, Adam was created from the "dust" of the earth; the ancient earth.
It may also be the case that Adam was literally created first upon the earth; that no other creature was created before him. Yet Eve was clearly created after him (6 thousand years ago).
Also, Gen. 2:19 seems to indicate that Adam was there in the garden when the creatures of the earth were created. For tens or hundreds of thousands of years Adam was in the garden and then 6 thousand years ago Eve was created. Then after she was created she wanted to have children which contributed to the fall of man and the judgment.
So it was that Adam who was around for so many years naming God's living creatures as they were created (Gen. 2:19-20), was then given a women by which to have children.
So it appears that Chapter 1 is a spiritual creation or a plan of creation and Chapter 2 is the literal creation in which Adam was created first followed by the creation of living creatures and then Adam's companion and wife Eve for the creation of mankind upon the earth.
Thus, there was an interaction between God and Adam as God created the creatures that were to inhabitant the earth. As time passed then some creatures were removed and some preserved. Nevertheless, Adam remained in the garden. Until, that is, Eve convinced Adam to violate God's law. It was then that she began to have children and that was 6 thousand years ago.
I keep returning to the 6 thousand year ago theme for the beginning of mankind. For without Eve the population of man could not begin. Adam on the other hand was God's servant as God created creatures upon the earth. The fact that Adam was in Eden seems to indicate the immortal condition that he enjoyed upon the earth. Yet, he was willing to give that immortality away to be with his woman. With confidence in Christ his redeemer Adam stepped into the unknown condition of mortality to be judged a physical death. After what must have been eons of time with God upon the earth, he (Adam) did not waver in his love to his woman to stand by her in this new experience of mortality. How brave she was to force him into this decision. What love she knew that she would not be left alone; that her man would be by her side (Gen. 3:6-7). So it was that Adam was in the garden for thousands upon thousands of years and only when the woman was given to him that he preferred to be with her in judgment rather than be with God for eternity. A great example of the marriage bond between a man and his wife.
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Post by inaweofhim on Dec 1, 2019 15:25:57 GMT -6
Interestingly, the man was created by God from the dust of the earth (Gen. 2:7) but the woman was created by God from her man (Gen. 2:22). Perhaps that has a metaphorical meaning such as God created man from the ancient earth and woman from modern man. I say this because scripture rising from the dust of the earth is sealed words from the past made understandable in the future. So, Adam created from the dust is Adam from the past made available in the future (as in 6,000 years ago). Indicating, that Adam was created far in advance of Eve who was created 6,000 years ago. Because, Adam was created from the "dust" of the earth; the ancient earth. It may also be the case that Adam was literally created first upon the earth; that no other creature was created before him. Yet Eve was clearly created after him (6 thousand years ago). Also, Gen. 2:19 seems to indicate that Adam was there in the garden when the creatures of the earth were created. For tens or hundreds of thousands of years Adam was in the garden and then 6 thousand years ago Eve was created. Then after she was created she wanted to have children which contributed to the fall of man and the judgment. So it was that Adam who was around for so many years naming God's living creatures as they were created (Gen. 2:19-20), was then given a women by which to have children. So it appears that Chapter 1 is a spiritual creation or a plan of creation and Chapter 2 is the literal creation in which Adam was created first followed by the creation of living creatures and then Adam's companion and wife Eve for the creation of mankind upon the earth. Thus, there was an interaction between God and Adam as God created the creatures that were to inhabitant the earth. As time passed then some creatures were removed and some preserved. Nevertheless, Adam remained in the garden. Until, that is, Eve convinced Adam to violate God's law. It was then that she began to have children and that was 6 thousand years ago. I keep returning to the 6 thousand year ago theme for the beginning of mankind. For without Eve the population of man could not begin. Adam on the other hand was God's servant as God created creatures upon the earth. The fact that Adam was in Eden seems to indicate the immortal condition that he enjoyed upon the earth. Yet, he was willing to give that immortality away to be with his woman. With confidence in Christ his redeemer Adam stepped into the unknown condition of mortality to be judged a physical death. After what must have been eons of time with God upon the earth, he (Adam) did not waver in his love to his woman to stand by her in this new experience of mortality. How brave she was to force him into this decision. What love she knew that she would not be left alone; that her man would be by her side (Gen. 3:6-7). So it was that Adam was in the garden for thousands upon thousands of years and only when the woman was given to him that he preferred to be with her in judgment rather than be with God for eternity. A great example of the marriage bond between a man and his wife. Dear Boraddict, I do not see where you retrieved that Adam is of the ancient earth; and existed 1000s of years before Eve. Can you show me that, in Scripture, or supporting God-breathed documents? This is an interesting but, to me, disturbing thought that does not jibe with Scripture. Thank you for helping me understand. |
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Post by Natalie on Dec 1, 2019 16:21:32 GMT -6
Bora -- Consider Genesis 5:4-5 The days of Adam after he fathered Seth were 800 years; and he had other sons and daughters. Thus all the days that Adam lived were 930 years, and he died.
Adam did not give away immortality to be with Eve. And Eve was not brave. Eve sinned by disobeying God, and Adam listened to his wife instead of God (Gen 3:17). That's when God brought the curse but also the promise of a redeemer.
And having children did not contribute to the fall of man.
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Post by boraddict on Dec 2, 2019 1:54:51 GMT -6
It all sounded so good; the ideas of my previous posting that is.
I especially liked the concept that Adam was the first one created upon the earth. Then he named the animals as they were created. So the dinosaurs were there and did not survive the flood of Noah. Nevertheless, in the time-period that they were created, Adam appears to have been there; although, Eve might not have been there.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2019 6:09:51 GMT -6
It all sounded so good; the ideas of my previous posting that is. I especially liked the concept that Adam was the first one created upon the earth. Then he named the animals as they were created. So the dinosaurs were there and did not survive the flood of Noah. Nevertheless, in the time-period that they were created, Adam appears to have been there; although, Eve might not have been there.
Hi Bora,
just a little sidenote on this assessment.
If we consider Job 40:15
or Job 41:1
It seems pretty clear what is being described here....isn't it? (To me it seems to be a very good description of Apatosaurus/Brontosaurus and Tyrannosaurus Rex)
According to most scholars and bible experts, Job lived after the flood. The following scripture supports this (this is where Eliphaz talked to Job):
Job 22:15-16
Putting it all together....Job lived the same time when dinosaurs lived and saw them face to face. And Job seems to have lived after the flood....
Just saying
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Post by Natalie on Dec 2, 2019 12:15:32 GMT -6
boraddict, Genesis 2:15-20 describes how God placed Adam in the garden to take care of it, told him which tree not to eat from, created the beasts, Adam named them, then God created Eve because none of other other creatures were a suitable mate. So, in a way you are correct, but it all took place on day six. I think that Genesis 1:1-2:3 is the story of how God created all things, each day exactly as it says. Genesis 2:7-25 is the details of day six.
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Post by boraddict on Dec 3, 2019 0:24:25 GMT -6
boraddict , Genesis 2:15-20 describes how God placed Adam in the garden to take care of it, told him which tree not to eat from, created the beasts, Adam named them, then God created Eve because none of other other creatures were a suitable mate. So, in a way you are correct, but it all took place on day six. I think that Genesis 1:1-2:3 is the story of how God created all things, each day exactly as it says. Genesis 2:7-25 is the details of day six. Perhaps God told Adam about the trees, and then Adam told Eve. That seems reasonable that Adam functioned as a prophet to Eve; and that God did not specifically instruct Eve but through Adam. You know, like God talked to Moses and then Moses talked to the people. Secondly, perhaps Adam was not a witness to the creation of the animals but then named them afterwards. Oh, and another thing. If Job lived after the flood and he was referencing the dinosaurs, then where exactly were the pairs of dinosaurs placed on the Ark? Two T-Rex on the Ark, I don't think so. |
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