neural
Truth Seeker
Posts: 113
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Post by neural on Oct 10, 2019 12:44:17 GMT -6
Note: this is a rant.
I find myself getting increasingly annoyed at the constant droning of some individuals on the internet who are essentially running in circle screaming "the sky is falling! the sky is falling!" but then adding "maybe" or "I believe" in small print legalese just like they do on TV with drug commercials. So they can claim they aren't date setting, etc.
One individual in particular, while I respect his dedication to studying what is going on, has, over the past few years, increasingly turned from looking at the Word of God, to finding signs and messages "hidden" within books, movies, etc.
There is a belief among many people that the devil is somehow revealing his own plan for this world through music and news papers and books, etc.
I'm not saying he is outright wrong, but it is clear that few people who are chasing after this vein of thinking have considered that the devil has been around from the beginning, which is at least 6000 years, and in addition to that we do not know how long he was in the presence of God before he fell.
Bottom line: the devil is not stupid. His objective is to take as many people to hell with him as he possibly can. He cannot revoke the salvation of those who have placed their faith in God, but he *can* cause apostasy among those who have been fooled into thinking that they can get to heaven if they do good works, etc. There are a lot of people who claim to be Christians that are, as of right now, in a grey area. They are close to actually committing and accepting the gift of salvation, but still convinced that they need to do works, or whatever else is blocking them. These are the people that are the most vulnerable to false prophets/teachers.
I do believe we are at the end, but I also believe that the devil is not out of tactics either. We have to study the Word and trust God to guide us, but we must also be cognizant that the devil is the most experienced with deception through twisting the truth. One of the biggest ways in which he can attack the church is to convince people that the end times are here, and that the rapture is going to happen, because when people who are convinced of one thing suddenly find out they were wrong, the human tendency is towards rejection of the beliefs they are now being mocked for. "Where is the promise of His coming?" is not just people claiming that God isn't real because nothing has happened yet, it is also an accusation thrown at those who were convinced by charlatans that the end was indeed upon us.
To that end, we *must* be aware that the devil does not look at his battle plans in terms of the human life span. The devil has been planning his strategy for thousands of years, and it is certainly not outside the realm of belief that he would spend a few centuries carefully constructing "hidden messages" and such in order to deceive people one last time before the tribulation hits.
It is completely ok to look at the words and actions of global leaders, the plots within movies, song lyrics, etc., but we have got to stop giving them so much credit.
Our information source should be the Word of God, not magazine covers. Songs, movie plots, news articles and the like are not Divinely inspired, and any hidden messages we think we find within them need to be taken with lot more caution that some "watchmen" are doing.
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 10, 2019 18:09:41 GMT -6
Hello Neural,
Disciple4life here, Ok, so i'll bite on this thread. LOL.
You make some very good points my friend. I agree with most. Some I don't at all, but that's OK. That's another thread. ;-)
I agree that the Devil is not stupid. He knows scripture forward and back, - and though he's not omnipresent like God, he has been around since before Adam, and he's seen every leader in History, from Hitler to Pilate and Lenin and his imps/ demons can hear what we say.
He also knows that prophecy is converging and his time is coming closer, and he knows how the story ends. But, like you said, he's bent on taking as many down with him as he can.
You seem to imply that you don't think we are in contraction stages? Am I right? I know that things come across differently in print - in a small way, you seemed to be skeptical - almost mocking those who feel that we are at the cusp of the end. That's why I use the phrase contractions.
- There are prophecies that have just been fulfilled in the last three years. - Last year, we saw the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy of the alliance of Iran, Russia and Turkey. Wow. - Then, there is the Revelation 12 sign - By itself it doesn't mean much. Was it a sign ? Yes, for sure, but not what most believed. I've said before, it's a lot more like a "falling rocks" sign in the middle of Kansas. I warned/ cautioned many at the time of trying to make 'special number connections' to it - numerology. 40 days after, and 50 days after, and 33 days after, and it wasn't on a feast day. It was unique and has never happened to this precision in history, and won't happen again for hundreds of years. Two years later and we're all still here.. Does it have some connection to the rapture/ end times? - only in the sense that it caused a much greater interest in understanding astronomical allignments and how the Gospel is in the Stars, and a much greater interest in blood moons - and it matched one verse in Revelation about the rapture so in that way yes. Stary Night and Stellarium software people are very thankful. ;-)
- We have the 70 year anniversary of Israel as a nation - which is significant in that it seems to fit the description of Christ regarding the olive tree. - Then just for a few more - we have Trump, the first president in the history to officially proclaim Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and move the embassy. - We have a red heifer, which is now 2 years old, and no white hairs. - We have all the instruments for the temple, and all the priests and their garments - exactly to the Biblical specs - We have seen last year, the first time a full Passover sacrifice on the temple mount, and the plans are in place for the temple.
OK, so is it imminent?? Or Braxton Hicks. - We just missed Day of Atonement, so a few more days and then it's Feast of Booths - Sukkot, and Turkey just started the invasion on Syria yesterday - wait for it ... anyone? Anyone? Buuuueeeeler ?? On Day of Atonement/ Yom Kippur. What a coincidence.  A lot can happen in a week. If not, - then the Fall Feasts which are inseparably linked with the Second Advent [Rapture, tribulation and second coming, seals, bowls and trumpets] are gone and it's a case of Braxton Hicks and we watch things progress until next Fall.
That's all for now. The Braxton Hicks thread is coming. ;-) LOL, but I can't say it's imminent.
Hope you get lots of bites. ;-)
Maranatha, Disciple4life
Your Otter brother in Tennessee.
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Post by mike on Oct 10, 2019 18:54:39 GMT -6
D4L I think you are on to something with Turkey/Syria on Tom Kippur.
Neural - I have seen a video or two on YouTube similar or perhaps the exact ones you're talking about. I agree, it almost seems desperate to me but not in the way you or I may yearn (desperately) to be with our Lord and God!
Grasping for something outside the scripture to make them or someone feel like this plan is orchestrated the Satan wants it to. And D4L is right. The enemy knows the plan. In fact for all our speculation, he may even have a better understanding of things coming.
Put yourself in his shoes for a moment 😂
If you knew that at any day your days were about to be numbered, then you are tossed into the lake of fire burning with brimstone forever and ever, would you try to delay that or speed it up (if that were possible)? I would try to slow down my demise.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Oct 10, 2019 19:31:52 GMT -6
mike, today I went to one of the links from the shoutbox about the pastor Brunson who had been imprisoned. I read the article and then went to the comments which were alive with activity. It was very troublesome that someone even said how cruel of Jesus to be so absent for 2000 years. Basically saying where is this Jesus everyone says is coming bacl type of attitude. And the person compared Jesus to the Barr investigation where we are still waiting waiting waiting and nothing happening. Talk about a mocker of all mocks. I felt sad for this person that they appear to have lost faith in the Blessed Hope.
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Post by mike on Oct 10, 2019 19:39:48 GMT -6
BSG, sad indeed. Although I wish He came tonight. He can take as long as He wants. He is God I am not
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neural
Truth Seeker
Posts: 113
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Post by neural on Oct 11, 2019 14:32:49 GMT -6
disciple4life, Well, to clarify, it was not my intent to imply that we are not in the end days. I believe we are. As I told my wife, the videos in question could be exactly right, and I hope they are! For me, however, I have spent a very long time pondering many things. I realized the other day that due to insomnia, which I've had all my life, and due to an over active very analytical mind, I have for a very long time now had a near constant train of thought in my waking hours that, in recent years especially, has been focused on God in one way or another for roughly 90% of my day. Whether it be the subject of salvation, grace, sin, the church, prayer, time past, time future, the end times, the rapture, prophecy, etc., I actually find I am often mentally exhausted because I think about these things so much (taboo subject warning: Unlike the "average male" I think it is perhaps a blessing in some ways, because this constant stream of thought has overtaken and in many cases replaced the usual human male tendency to think about sex) I was going somewhere with this... coffee hasn't kicked in yet. ok.. now I remember. One of the things I've pondered is the enemies strategies. My mind, and my brain, in this fallen state, is no match for that of the mind of the devil. Even if the devils mind was on part with that of a fallen human, he's got 6000+ years more experience alone, and his memory probably works a lot better than mine. Any insight I might have into how the devil might choose to do things against God, is merely wisdom that God gives me, because I cannot hope to fathom the strategies involved on my own. One very crucial point that actually makes a vast difference in the probabilities of what the devil is trying to do in this world, is whether or not the devil knows he has lost and that his loss is the only outcome. Some would argue that there is no delima there, that the devil knows he is defeated and that is that, but I think it is very important to be able to back that up with scripture. The devil *clearly* thought at one point in time that he *did* have a chance. That he could ascend above the most high, and take the place of God. The pride and arrogance he had was such that he believed, apparently, that he could pull it off. I have questioned whether or not this is still the case. I see a distinct difference in battle plans should the answer be one way or the other. There's a lot to write on that subject, but the important part of it is that I see the devil using his skill of deception, and twisting the truth, to the fullest of his ability. Tricking Christians into believing the end times are upon us is not a new strategy at all, but it also has shown to work in the past, and if it works, he's going to use it. Even if it is being used at the last moment. I'm going to go out on a limb here (about a mile and a half out) and use a very sensitive subject as an example: The pre-trib rapture. Please note, again, I try and look at things from all angles, and try to do so objectively. IF scripture has been misinterpreted over time, and IF God does not plan for the rapture to happen until the *end* of the tribulation, consider the following question: -What will happen to the Christian church as we see it today, if an event happens that undeniably says we are in the tribulation? You want to talk about apostasy? Because that would create apostasy the likes of which has never been seen. As well as panic. Panic among the actual believers who are willing to open their eyes and see that they were wrong, but have been told for decades how terrible the tribulation would be. (it should be noted that I have a bit of a bone to pick with the church on this subject, as I believe many pastors in our lifetime have been potentially overstating the events of the tribulation in an attempt to scare people into faith). The overall result of such a terrible awakening, would likely net a lot of people giving up on the idea that God exists, etc. Now, I need to point out this is not set in stone mindset. I am undecided, and at this point I take the "pray for pre, prepare for post" mindset. I would love for the rapture to be *before* the tribulation. I'm tired of this place. Anyway, I'm still a bit foggy from a rough night of sleep, and I'm sure the above is probably not as organized as it could be, but I am definitely of the mindset that we *are* approaching the end within perhaps 20 years, and likely within a couple years, but I also believe that the devil is going to work up to the very last second to deceive people, and that his deceptions within the church will be 99% rooted in truth, with 1% lie (as he is prone to doing).
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Post by kjs on Oct 11, 2019 15:32:40 GMT -6
Not saying you are wrong -- like most people I do not have a clue about the "Hows, Whens, and Whys" and willing to allow it to play out.....
But going with your "out on limb" comments ... like "if an event happens that undeniably says we are in the tribulation"....
How would we (those currently alive) know if something was "undeniably part of tribulation"?
Let's take an example (Revelation 6:12 -14) -- Stars falling to earth -- Umm any of these super gas giants (even the size of our sun) -- is larger than the whole planet -- so they would not fit.
(Unless of course you are from group that believes in "Flat Earth concept" -- which simply has lights in the sky - which could fall)
What about (Revelation 6:8) -- "over a fourth of the earth, to kill by sword, by famine, by plague, and by the beasts of the earth."
Well -- "The Black Death is estimated to have killed 30% to 60% of Europe's population. In total, the plague may have reduced the world population from an estimated 475 million to 350–375 million in the 14th century. "
Pretty close to that 1/4 figure ................
Then there is WW2 -- which is the deadliest war ever.....
So just what "undeniably part of tribulation" -- will prove beyond a doubt that the tribulation has started?
But even if you could come up with a solid proof that the tribulation has started ... why would "that would create apostasy the likes of which has never been seen."
That much death and destruction should have the affect of driving people to ALL Religious institutions .... even the Christian one.....
I understand there may be a few souls that would say ..... well we are still here ... I guess God saves in another way .... and start to go around trying to "prove their goodness" so that would be big time apostasy.... so one could say people becoming more religious may be apostasy -- but apostasy means "falling away" so that would mean they were falling away from something they already believed.
Just not following your logic with your "out on a limb" subject.........
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neural
Truth Seeker
Posts: 113
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Post by neural on Oct 11, 2019 18:53:15 GMT -6
kjs, I'm thinking that the construction of the third temple might throw a wrench in the works. Or if someone stood in said temple and demanded to be worshiped as God resulting in the religious among Israeli's to flee en masse. The question is: would we recognize it for what it is? Though the interesting part about that is that it lends credence to the theory I posed a while ago about whether or not we may be *IN* the tribulation now (while it is a theory I have pondered, I'm not set on that just yet, but as time passes I'm increasingly against this theory). I have no solid answers as to what said situation would be. Perhaps locusts swarming and only attacking non-christians, causing them great pain by which they would not even be able to escape even by attempting to kill themselves? Not sure. It is a subject that certainly has it's issues, because there is a lot of debate around the various events listed in Revelation and whether or not they would be fulfilled so literally that it would be undeniable. Of course, the only purpose of this thought line is an example of the length to which the devil would go to deceive people. To be blatantly clear for any who might question: I am not claiming that pre-tribulation rapture interpretation of scripture is "of the devil". I *am* saying that the church is in such disarray today that we need to face the reality that it is a possibility. There is only one truth. There is only one way in which God has designed things to happen. Yet the church has dozens, if not hundreds of "interpretations" as to what that might be. There is no soil more fertile for the seeds of deception than this, and when I see someone with thousands of followers on youtube interpreting tarrot cards off the front of a magazine and claiming that they reveal the plans of the devil, I become *really* agitated. Eschatology is, in my opinion, second only to the message of Salvation by Grace through Faith, but while the study of Biblical prophecy holds second place, it is not any great distance behind that which is most important (salvation). If it were a distant follower of that which is most important, I would tend to agree with the churches today that are simply ignoring end times prophecy, but I do not believe that Revelation specifically would have a blessing pronounced for those who read and keep the words of the book if it were a distant 2nd. Clearly God felt it was important enough to bless those who read and watch. I'm probably going in circles. It's been a rough week for reasons I don't really want to go into (prayers appreciated), so I'm out of sorts and not thinking as straight as I usually do (not that "usual" for me is remotely straight, but I think you get my point).
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Post by mike on Oct 11, 2019 19:39:40 GMT -6
Neural your point(s) make sense. I may not fully understand your position as I may not be able to see what you see.
I am not quite as persuaded as I once was with how the rapture occurs, let alone it's timing.
I think that we are much closer to His return than others may. Just because we don't see famine or pestilence in our countries, those exact things are happening and have happened over the last several centuries. I was once of the thought the whole book of Revelation unfolds in one 7yr time frame preceded by the rapture. I'm not even close to that anymore but I can see those who would be very disturbed to think otherwise. I could be called a heretic by some of those brothers/sisters.
as for those not studying end times, I get it. It can be scary to think about those we love being left behind. But in my opinion those who feel that need to dig deeper and trust Him. I don't say that in judging manner. I once thought "don't come back yet, I want this or that to happen..." But the biggest reason TO study end times prophecy is the reason I believe. Paul said it best and when I finally understood this a huge light bulb went on.
1Cor 15:17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.
I believe in the Messiah who was raised from the dead and lives evermore. I have that hope, faith that He will also raise me should my body fail before He returns or I will be changed. Either way I live forevermore in His presence. I am at peace with that
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Post by kjs on Oct 11, 2019 20:14:06 GMT -6
As you ended your post -- that is the key -- In what is your belief (faith) in............
My hope is built on nothing less
Than Jesus Christ, my righteousness;
I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
But wholly lean on Jesus’ name.
On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand;
All other ground is sinking sand,
All other ground is sinking sand.
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 11, 2019 21:13:54 GMT -6
neural, kjs, KJS, you nailed it my friend. Tens of millions of people all missing around the world - and it will only be a matter of hours for the journalists who grew up in church to make the connection that the "Alien Abduction" story just doesn't fly. The missing are all Christians. But if - just hypothetically - if the rapture were mid trib, then there would have to be a huge trigger. Not dogmatic on what that will be. I agree with Pastor JD Farag, in that the rapture is the great trigger - the thing that sets the dominoes in motion for the Ezekial 38 war. Huge vacuum, and the most percentage of people missing would be from South Korea, USA, England, but Isreal's greatest ally is not there to defend her. I don't in any scenario see this as making or causing apostasy - if anything, like kjs said, the opposite. After the initial panic and world-wide hysteria, people will be flocking to churches. The pastors of the ones teaching the word will be gone. Some will buy the Alien Abduction, but it's like the cancer thing- everyone knows someone who has been touched by it. Everyone has a Crazy Aunt Suzie, or the Religious Grandpa Eddie, or the co-worker, or the neighbor, and that will make them think. Here's a twist that I have never heard or read anywhere - I think it was kjs or stormyknight in another thread that made the point that Mid-Trib or Post trib/ makes no sense at all - that the Christians go up, and then come right back down with Christ to earth. This goes against the entire concept of Hebrew wedding where the Groom takes the bride into the wedding chamber - chuppah for seven days. But the point I thought about is two-fold - that also doesn't make sense for a Mid-trib rapture, or Post-trib. 1. Why would USA not intervene with Trump being the most pro-Jewish President in History. [His daughter is Jewish, Kushner is Jewish, all his sons married Jewish women, and all his grandchildren are Jewish, and the whole world has seen how he declared Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, and moved the US Embassy. What ever a person thinks of Trump - he is not the kind of person who doesn't strike back when attacked. Why would England not defend Israel.? Why would any other ally with Israel just sit and do nothing. The only reason is the total vacuum and chaos because of the leaders missing - military is reeling with the loss of people and dealing with their own internal problems related to the rapture and the subsequent world-wide economic meltdown. 2. So the other thought - maybe someone has said it, wrote it - I've just never heard it - If there were some trigger, - again, hypothetically, Russia, Iran and Turkey do a major attack on Syria on Sukkot - [For those keeping track at home, Turkey started the invasion this week on Yom Kippur] Missiles hit the weapons of mass destruction buried underneath Damascus, and in a second - the prophecy is fulfilled. Damascus becomes uninhabitable/ and there is a major announcement "Deal of the Century" that divides Jerusalem. In this hypothetical scenario, Tribulation starts -and Christians are all here. ?? So it makes no sense at all. Christians would band together, sell their possessions, and hunker down, or go off the grid, and then they also tell the ones closest to them - ***Who now are opening to listen, since WW III broke out. People in radical transition are the most ripe- primed for the Gospel. So we have 50 million Christians in America alone, who all head to the backcountry and raise goats, and live by bartering. [not using money] barbiosheepgirl. ;-) The Mark of the Beast doesn't work- if 500 million Christians in China, USA, Canada, England, South Korea, and other super powers all see the 2 witnesses breathing fire in Jerusalem on You-tube. There is a very-widespread view that the church is the restrainer. Doesn't make sense if the restrainer is still here. Makes no sense because we have an exact day count of the two witnesses, and 500 million Christians not only know when they die, but that their bodies will lay in the street for 3 & 1/2 days, and then will be resurrected. Essentially, you would have 500 million Christians who have the playbook with all the plans and can see the future - in amazing clarity. they can even predict invaders in Jerusalem, who would trample the city for 3 1/2 years. They would also be able to predict horrible disease, and how long it would last, and a massive earthquake like the world has never seen. Sure I get that many still would not listen - ;-) People laughed at Noah, right up until the moment when the first raindrop fell, and then they were screaming and pounding on the ARK. People can and will laugh all day about 100 lb hail, until the very first one falls and destroys a building. The first time we have recorded footage of the 2 witnesses breathing fire and they can't be harmed, the laughing stops. Intense hatred, desperation, panic, anger, regret, terror, hysteria, YES, YES, YES, but not Laughing. The notion that trials and tribulation and persecution down through history is the same as the THE GREAT TRIBULATION doesn't pass basic Bible Interpretation 101. This is the same kind of flawed logic and eisegisis of those who say that the "Last Trumpet" that Paul spoke of is the 7th Trumpet in Revelation because it's the last one mentioned, - the 7th. Neural, my view is summed up well by a former pastor, and Greek and Hebrew scholar. He said, If you push me into a corner, and I had to declare my position - I'm definitely Pre-tribulation rapture. But if it turns out to be not Pre-trib, then I'm definitely Mid-Trib. And if it turns out to not be Mid-Trib, then I'm definitely Post-trib." LOL. Disciple4life
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Post by kjs on Oct 12, 2019 9:07:09 GMT -6
The notion that trials and tribulation and persecution down through history is the same as the THE GREAT TRIBULATION doesn't pass basic Bible Interpretation 101. This is the same kind of flawed logic and eisegisis of those who say that the "Last Trumpet" that Paul spoke of is the 7th Trumpet in Revelation because it's the last one mentioned, - the 7th. Neural, my view is summed up well by a former pastor, and Greek and Hebrew scholar. He said, If you push me into a corner, and I had to declare my position - I'm definitely Pre-tribulation rapture. But if it turns out to be not Pre-trib, then I'm definitely Mid-Trib. And if it turns out to not be Mid-Trib, then I'm definitely Post-trib." LOL. Disciple4life
Never heard it that way ... but I do agree with it...... The one I heard a lot is "Pan-Trib" -- meaning everything will PAN OUT IN THE END!
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