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Post by venge on Jul 11, 2019 16:03:41 GMT -6
Where did he leave? Heaven Where did he go? Earth Where will he be? Reigning on earth with his saints. So we will be on earth and the place he goes to prepare for us is a new earth and a new Jerusalem. Not a physical house in heaven. You describe His first coming and Millennial reign, yes. But now He is in heaven, and we will be with Him there until His second coming. Yes, not a physical house, but Jesus calls it a "place", and it's where He is. Yes on New Jerusalem. You said: Not if we are alive and remain. 1 Thessalonians states: Why would we rise, if we were in heaven? Is Heaven in the ground? And 1 Cor says : But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him How are we with him in heaven if it says here at "his coming" meaning those dead and those alive. Or Matt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
If our reward is in heaven, how are we rewarded, being in heaven as you say, if the son of man hasn't come yet? |
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Post by venge on Jul 11, 2019 16:04:30 GMT -6
fitz , You said: Is there supporting scripture to say specifically -- "we are taken to heaven pre trib"? I already gave it to you.  It's all quite simple. Jesus says the Father is in Heaven (dozens of times, I surmise). Jesus said He was going back to Father to prepare a place for us (there) and then He will come to take us to where He is (there). How can you miss it? That scripture does not say pre trib. |
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Post by Natalie on Jul 11, 2019 16:31:22 GMT -6
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. (1 Thes 4:16-17) So, do we go up to meet Him in the clouds only to come right back to earth with Him as He descends for the Second Coming? Or do we meet Him, stay with Him for a period of time, and then He physically returns?
Or is there an option I am missing?
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Post by fitz on Jul 11, 2019 17:07:09 GMT -6
I already gave it to you. It's all quite simple. Jesus says the Father is in Heaven (dozens of times, I surmise). Jesus said He was going back to Father to prepare a place for us (there) and then He will come to take us to where He is (there). How can you miss it? That scripture does not say pre trib. No, but it makes sense understood with other scripture. Also... John 17:24 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. What do you think this means? Where does He mean? |
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Post by venge on Jul 12, 2019 6:49:32 GMT -6
That scripture does not say pre trib. No, but it makes sense understood with other scripture. Also... John 17:24 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. What do you think this means? Where does He mean? He means wherever he is, we are also and as he comes to earth to reign, that we are to reign with him as the Bible states...on earth. |
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Post by venge on Jul 12, 2019 6:53:18 GMT -6
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. (1 Thes 4:16-17) So, do we go up to meet Him in the clouds only to come right back to earth with Him as He descends for the Second Coming? Or do we meet Him, stay with Him for a period of time, and then He physically returns?
Or is there an option I am missing?
Yep. He descends to begin his reign for 1k years and as Rev 20 states, we reign w/him that same duration. 1k years. Our gathering together to him is welcoming him. We meet him, are always with him from that time on forever and he physically returns per what the angels testified that as he left that way, he will return that way. I don't know.. |
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Post by venge on Jul 12, 2019 7:03:30 GMT -6
I should add what some commentators think of that scripture:
Ellicott:
To meet the Lord in the air.—St. Chrysostom says:” When the King cometh into a city, they that are honourable proceed forth to meet him, but the guilty await their judge within.” The phrase “in the air” certainly does not mean “heaven.” The word “air”) in itself properly signifies the lower, denser, grosser atmosphere, in which the powers of darkness reign (Ephesians 2:2); but here it is only used in contrast with the ground, and means “on the way from Heaven whence He comes,” of course not to dwell there, but to accompany Him to His Judgment-seat on the earth.
Matthew Poole:
To meet the Lord in the air:
1. To congratulate his coming, when others shall flee and tremble.
2. To put honour upon him; as the angels will also attend him for that end.
3. To receive their final discharge.
4. To be visibly joined to their Head.
5. To be assistants with him in judging of the world, and to reign with him upon earth.
--Of course other commentators will take a different approach more inline with your thoughts. But I posted these 2 to describe how I view it currently.
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Post by mike on Jul 12, 2019 9:10:31 GMT -6
Natalie sometimes clouds are ground level. I once held the view that locked me into a rapture view that meant we are completely removed from the planet, disappeared, poof! I still it's possible, but does it have to be that way?
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Post by Natalie on Jul 12, 2019 10:50:13 GMT -6
I am willing to consider other views. I know Venge and I see things much differently so I am grateful when he takes the time to explain things out. I suppose it doesn't have to be that way, but I'll have to work through other views with what I see Scripture saying. I see "clouds" and "in the air" and think of where I see clouds the majority of the time. I believe that there is a period of time meant for Israel and the nations, not the church. So, we have to be somewhere. If we meet Him as He is coming to establish His kingdom then we have gone through that time period. I still think we are removed somehow...and changed...and we go to where He is while things are finished up here on earth. I think earlier in the thread dimensions were mentioned. I think we go from the physical to the spiritual realm. Like when a person dies they go from one to the other, but somehow our body and spirit will both go. But at some point the spiritual becomes part of this physical world. (Or maybe the other way round?) I think that's part of what is happening in Revelation - the two are colliding, so to speak. And somehow the spiritual has a physical component to it, for we know that Christ physically left and will physically return to establish His kingdom. But for now He is with the Father in that realm. I think of John called to "Come up here" and he was then in the spiritual realm. Maybe it was just a vision; maybe he was actually in the throne room. It reminds me also of Isaiah 26:20. I think of Enoch who walked with God and then could not be found because God took Him. (What was that like for all involved?) But also of Elijah who physically was carried up. He went somewhere. I try to ponder all of this and it is just too much sometimes. |
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Post by venge on Jul 12, 2019 15:22:07 GMT -6
I am willing to consider other views. I know Venge and I see things much differently so I am grateful when he takes the time to explain things out. I suppose it doesn't have to be that way, but I'll have to work through other views with what I see Scripture saying. I see "clouds" and "in the air" and think of where I see clouds the majority of the time. I believe that there is a period of time meant for Israel and the nations, not the church. So, we have to be somewhere. If we meet Him as He is coming to establish His kingdom then we have gone through that time period. I still think we are removed somehow...and changed...and we go to where He is while things are finished up here on earth. I think earlier in the thread dimensions were mentioned. I think we go from the physical to the spiritual realm. Like when a person dies they go from one to the other, but somehow our body and spirit will both go. But at some point the spiritual becomes part of this physical world. (Or maybe the other way round?) I think that's part of what is happening in Revelation - the two are colliding, so to speak. And somehow the spiritual has a physical component to it, for we know that Christ physically left and will physically return to establish His kingdom. But for now He is with the Father in that realm. I think of John called to "Come up here" and he was then in the spiritual realm. Maybe it was just a vision; maybe he was actually in the throne room. It reminds me also of Isaiah 26:20. I think of Enoch who walked with God and then could not be found because God took Him. (What was that like for all involved?) But also of Elijah who physically was carried up. He went somewhere. I try to ponder all of this and it is just too much sometimes. Natalie, Though we may have differences, I have great love for you because you love Christ as much as I do. I was reading your reply above and wanted to copy what you posted below: I am guessing that you are referring to the time of God's wrath. And this is where many have different views. From my position, like your own, we don't go through God's wrath. But where lay the difference is that when Christ comes to setup his kingdom...we are raised and changed before the wrath. For you, if I have this right, you think that we are removed....then we wait some time till its over and then we are changed and come back to earth to reign with him. Christ does not need to remove the dead from earth in his wrath. Only the living. So why does Christ remove the dead before his wrath? Unless he is reigning, otherwise there is no need to resurrect anyone dead or have them changed yet. This is the harvest. In Matthew 13:30, Christ talks about the good seed (us) and the bad seed (the wicked) growing together until the harvest. Then you have Rev 14:14-16 Where Christ sitting on the clouds has a sharp sickle in his hand. You know why this is important? That sickle Christ wields is actually different from the sickle that the angel in verse 17 wields. Barnes says: And in his hand a sharp sickle - The word "sickle" here - δρέπανον drepanon - means a crooked knife or scythe for gathering the harvest, or vintage, by cutting off the clusters of grapes. My Bible writes it as a large dull scythe used to cut wheat for the harvest. But when it looks at the world for the sickle the angel carries, it describes it is a small sharp knife use to cut grapes before that are crushed. An Israelite wouldnt use the the common scythe to cut grape from the bush. So there are 2 different weapons used. And there are 2 different things happening. Removal of the wheat (into his barn) and cutting the grapes so they may be crushed. |
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Post by Natalie on Jul 12, 2019 16:05:27 GMT -6
I think we are raised and changed at the same time, then we wait with Him until the Time of Jacob's Trouble is over (which includes God's wrath), then we return, and that is when Christ sets up His kingdom.
I guess I see the raising of the dead and gathering of the living happening together because they all make up the Body of Christ. We all get our new incorruptible bodies at the same time. Although, I believe that a soul goes to be with Him when they die, so they don't need to be resurrected, but they still need their new bodies. To me it makes sense to gather the whole Church, living and dead, at the same time.
I will have to do some more reading and thinking on the harvests. I understand the grape harvest for that is surely Isaiah 63:3, Zech 14:3-5, Rev 19:13. but I have not thought much of what the other harvest might be other than the fact that time was up.
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Post by venge on Jul 13, 2019 10:02:46 GMT -6
I think we are raised and changed at the same time, then we wait with Him until the Time of Jacob's Trouble is over (which includes God's wrath), then we return, and that is when Christ sets up His kingdom. I guess I see the raising of the dead and gathering of the living happening together because they all make up the Body of Christ. We all get our new incorruptible bodies at the same time. Although, I believe that a soul goes to be with Him when they die, so they don't need to be resurrected, but they still need their new bodies. To me it makes sense to gather the whole Church, living and dead, at the same time. I will have to do some more reading and thinking on the harvests. I understand the grape harvest for that is surely Isaiah 63:3, Zech 14:3-5, Rev 19:13. but I have not thought much of what the other harvest might be other than the fact that time was up. Ok, So you see Christ setting up his kingdom after the wrath but Rev 11 states he reigns before the bowls which are called vials filled up with the wrath of God and that time (bowls) is for God to destroy those who destroy the earth. That backs up Matthew when he says all people that do iniquity will be removed from his kingdom and tossed to the fire to be burned. If he is removing wickedness from his kingdom, he is already reigning. And if he is reigning, we are reigning with him. Yes, I believe both the dead and live resurrect together but I was speaking about the “why” regarding the dead. |
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It's all quite simple.
