|
|
Post by venge on Jun 8, 2019 18:25:27 GMT -6
Yeah, the title is rough. Its a subject that we don't talk about often because we are afraid to offend. But the gospel does offend! It is supposed to, not the good but the sinner.
So why the subject? We know that in the end of days, men will be scoffers leading to their own lusts, effeminate men wont inherit the kingdom of God and so forth. As I watch the news, I see Churches that accept homosexuality in the Church. Homosexual pastors, clergy, congregation....
And even when we understand Genesis: How God created male and female to come together and be one flesh, that isn't enough for the LGBTQIA and in 10 more years there will be more alphabet added I'm sure
We can talk about Romans, and how Paul said men with men is wrong. We can look at Leviticus and read it was wrong and still, Churches rationalize their own lusts in saying that was Adult men and boys, not loving men on men relationships.
So what did the early Church believe? Let us look at some sayings for those that think Homosexuality is ok.
Some translate this as sodomy
And was is not Lot that hid the angels which the townspeople of Sodom wanted to know them instead of knowing Lot's virgin daughters?
With all these quotes, it is obvious homosexuality was condemned in the early Church as well as in our Biblical text. Do not believe the lie some Churches push today. Homosexuality is wrong. It is a sin and no one can enter the Kingdom of God with it. But we still must love the homosexual, the person, not the sin to win them that Christ may work within them to repent. But this sin is evident that no clergy can ever hold a true position nor should it be understanding to be lawful within the Church.
|
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Jun 8, 2019 18:51:26 GMT -6
My son (13) said some of the boys on his baseball team talk about boy/boy relationships. He didn't really expand on what was said. He said most of it was stupid stuff.
So we talked a bit about how people think it's ok, and the whole "born that way" and people struggle with different sins.
My niece wants to be a boy. Her younger brother even has referred to her as "my brother", so these topics come up sometimes.
We attend a small church and in the summer the Sunday School classes, teens and up, merge. This summer we are going to be talking about a variety of topics and one is homosexuality.
|
|
|
|
Post by mike on Jun 8, 2019 19:53:55 GMT -6
Venge you are correct it is tough. I explain to my daughter and she understands. She thinks it's not normal. We talk. A lot of topics, not just this one.
"Dad, Why are people trying to live on Mars?"
"Why are people so mean?"
"What's happen to dinosaurs?"
Me "God made Adam, then Eve, for each other. It's the design..." I answer her questions to shape her worldview.
I am working on people a little at a time. This is how I "witness".
My next door neighbor is a really nice guy, his wife too. We get along with them very well and spend time together. He's a Catholic. They go on Sundays. Fulfill the obligation. All good with God, you get the picture.
This topic came up. Over the time I've gotten to know my neighbor, I've had the chance to do similar things with them as I do with my daughter. When we spoke about life on other planets and aliens, I explained "God made us for this planet. Let me ask you this Mark (his name is Mark). Let's just say life was possible on another planet. Those already living on that planet would have to be exempt from the Spirit world. They would have to be impervious to sin, else they too would require a Savior. If God has One Son how would this issue be resolved?"
Relatable/Topical conversation works well for me. But what works for me may not for you. Some are pastors, some teachers...
I despise this particular iniquity more than any other. I'm not sure why. They all are horrible. They are all covered under the blood the same way, yet this makes my stomach churn. I wonder if thats the same thing Good feels
Lev 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.
8441. toebah
abominable (5), abominable act (1), abomination (39), abominations (60), detestable (2), detestable act (1), detestable thing (3), detestable things (3), loathsome (2), object of loathing (1)
I have to meet people where they may be at. I try. Sometimes I really blow it, especially this topic. It makes me sick. It's hard for me
Phil 3:8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained
|
|
|
|
Post by venge on Jun 9, 2019 4:43:27 GMT -6
It is hard. I’m under the belief you are born that way and it’s a choice.
Let me explain: I believe a choice whereas all sins are choice based. God gives you a way out. But I also believe you are born that way. Not because the homosexual says that; it is because all have sin. Now one mans sin that he struggles with the most may be pornography, another homosexuality and another may be lying.
We are capable of all sins but every person has certain ones they fight against daily more then others. These harder to resist sins are different for ever person.
Why do some Christians attack homosexuals but not the liar? Neither will be in the kingdom. They are all wrong in God’s eyes. Why are we softer with lies, alcohol, sex then homosexuals? They need God too thus we need to preach to them.
Paul made himself like the people around him whether poor, gentile, Roman or Greek. He did it not to sin but to win them to Christ. That is what is needed. To understand them to win them, not to agree with them. The homosexual is just as condemned as the nice neighbor next door that doesn’t believe and that says hello, lets you borrow his tools, helps wash your car and is always friendly.
|
|
|
|
Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jun 9, 2019 6:36:07 GMT -6
Right. But preach what? Repentance is not the stopping of sinning but a change in attitude as to who is Lord in your life, yourself or Jesus...but then, how wretched the flesh is as it still operates in sin, right? I know mine does. Is the Church really doing her job correctly?
I think it is wrong to cast the stone of the gay is sinning when the person saying that gay is bad, has his own struggles, just like you said, venge.
A gay who refuses to get to know Jesus or denies who Jesus is, now THAT is a greater sin than the sins of the flesh, is it not? denying the Son? Maybe the Christian needs to "preach" who Jesus IS and not preach "changing the behavior". I really don't know what is spoken to those who wear their sins out in public. It is odd that a gay person can even become a pastor at a church if the Bible is being read. Is this pastor a Believer? Is he "anointed" or "born again"?
We know of "born again" evangelists who have fallen into adultery. So, what gives here? How can a person "filled" with the Holy Spirit continue "sinning" or commit adultery? and, especially if that person has professed with his mouth that Jesus IS the Son of God and died and rose and ascended into Heaven... Like you say, venge, there is a "list" of abominable things, and homosexual practice is not the only thing on the list.
|
|
|
|
Post by fitz on Jun 9, 2019 7:02:01 GMT -6
venge said: "Homosexuality is wrong. It is a sin and no one can enter the Kingdom of God with it. " Venge, are you saying a practicing homosexual is disqualified...cannot be saved? That even one who professes faith in Christ must be a liar if he/she continues in this sin?
|
|
|
|
Post by mike on Jun 9, 2019 8:07:57 GMT -6
BSG - one thought I had reading the post is that although lying is a sin, everyone can do it and does or did. Homosexuality is not the same. Not everyone does this or did. Even Abraham lied but is/was justified.
In addition, does 1 Cor 6:18 apply in this case or only to sex outside of marriage?
|
|
|
|
Post by davewatchman on Jun 9, 2019 10:10:33 GMT -6
BSG - one thought I had reading the post is that although lying is a sin, everyone can do it and does or did. Homosexuality is not the same. Not everyone does this or did. Even Abraham lied but is/was justified. In addition, does 1 Cor 6:18 apply in this case or only to sex outside of marriage? There you go Mike. All sin is not created equal. And of all the sins, this is THE sin that thumbs it's nose right in the face of God's great design for humanity. And of all the sins, i'm still very sure that this is the one, it's the BIGGIE sign for our end times. It's why i still haven't given up. There's way more to this one than meets the eye. I don't even want to talk about it anymore. There's more to it than just an innocent "preference". In a video sermon, John Mac Arthur told a story about talking with a New York City coroner. The coroner told him that whenever he saw a brutal sex crime scene, he knew right away whether or not it involved homosexuals. When the angels came to rescue Lot, the Sodomites could have had their choice of the whole town, OR Lots virgin daughters. But no, they insisted that Lot send the angels out. "And they called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them.”And when Lot refused, they threatened:
“Stand back!” And they said, “This fellow came to sojourn, and he has become the judge! Now we will deal worse with you than with them.” Then they pressed hard against the man Lot, and drew near to break the door down.They threatened that they would do WORSE to Lot than they would to his quests if he didn't send them out. Does that sound like they were going to do something nice to the men? Does that sound like a case of normal sexual preference? And did you guys ever hear this story from Judges 19? In that case they DID send the daughter and the concubine out to appease the Sodomites and they knew her and killed the concubine. Not a nice story. A must watch video from 2013. This guy was ahead of the curve. My original bookmark said "video unavailable". I got it again through a search. He talks about the Judges 19 story at about 7:00 in. Pastor Steven Anderson: The Truth About the Sodomites
EDITAnd at 21:47 an example of using rule of first usage in defining the term "reprobate" mind: |
|
|
|
Post by mike on Jun 9, 2019 11:09:54 GMT -6
Not a fan of Steven Anderson, but no one preaches perfectly. Anyone who thinks they have the perfect doctrine deceives themselves.
|
|
|
|
Post by davewatchman on Jun 9, 2019 11:32:36 GMT -6
Not a fan of Steven Anderson, but no one preaches perfectly. Anyone who thinks they have the perfect doctrine deceives themselves. Man, it looks like i'm not supposed to be either. But i agree with everything he said in the above video, with the exception of what he said about Calvinism. I don't know how he gets away with it. He DOES get into trouble, i read that he's banned from Ireland and Botswana, Canada, Jamaica, Netherlands, South Africa, and United Kingdom. Still, he has guts. I think he can be funny at times. He said he didn't care about being banned from South Africa, "the rape capital of the world": But he might have went too far with the Orlando bar shooting: friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2016/06/12/christian-pastor-celebrates-nightclub-massacre-theres-50-less-pedophiles-in-this-world/Youtube took the video down, but it can still be seen as a video within another video here: Recent from May 2: <br><br> |
|
|
|
Post by venge on Jun 9, 2019 12:14:49 GMT -6
venge said: "Homosexuality is wrong. It is a sin and no one can enter the Kingdom of God with it. " Venge, are you saying a practicing homosexual is disqualified...cannot be saved? That even one who professes faith in Christ must be a liar if he/she continues in this sin? I would say yes. A practicing homosexual cannot enter the Kingdom of God. One who has thoughts but fights the sin can. If one professes faith in Christ, and still practices outside of what God mandated...he/she is contrary to the word of God. You cannot serve your own lusts and serve God. Homosexuality will be dealt with by the wrath of God. (Who hold the truth in unrighteousness). Cannot a homosexual have faith and be in unrighteousness? Can they be washed clean unpotted while still loving their sin? Are we not to abhor sin and every unclean thing? Yet those that live in that lifestyle don't abhor it, they embrace it! |
|
|
|
Post by venge on Jun 9, 2019 12:16:11 GMT -6
Not a fan of Steven Anderson, but no one preaches perfectly. Anyone who thinks they have the perfect doctrine deceives themselves. Agree, he is very aggressive towards people and can be obnoxious. I don't sense love coming from him. |
|
|
|
Post by mike on Jun 9, 2019 13:13:47 GMT -6
Venge from two posts up (just not quoting)...so here's my confusion. I lean towards agreeing with you, that the lifestyle is a willing choice for sin. Can't love sin and love/serve God. Again of all of the sinful acts this one I 'feel' is nauseating BUT
1Cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Matt 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Both my wife and I are divorced and remarried. From the above two passages, I am in the same camp as the homosexual.
Edit - the other component I wanted to comment on is qualifying our redemption. Saying someone who claims to believe on Christ for redemption and reconciliation to God is not inheriting heaven now adds a qualifying statement or work to be accepted. Am I understanding what you meant correctly? The post sounds like faith + no (fill in the blank) sin.
|
|
|
|
Post by davewatchman on Jun 9, 2019 14:29:16 GMT -6
Venge from two posts up (just not quoting)...so here's my confusion. I lean towards agreeing with you, that the lifestyle is a willing choice for sin. Can't love sin and love/serve God. Again of all of the sinful acts this one I 'feel' is nauseating BUT 1Cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Matt 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Both my wife and I are divorced and remarried. From the above two passages, I am in the same camp as the homosexual. Edit - the other component I wanted to comment on is qualifying our redemption. Saying someone who claims to believe on Christ for redemption and reconciliation to God is not inheriting heaven now adds a qualifying statement or work to be accepted. Am I understanding what you meant correctly? The post sounds like faith + no (fill in the blank) sin. I don't agree that you are in the same camp as the Sodomites. Some sins are more egregious. Only the camp of the Sodomites were destroyed by fire from Heaven. He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction, reducing them to ashes as an example of what is coming on the ungodly. And Jesus addressed the adultery issue. He spoke about it. He discussed it. “Is it lawful to divorce one’s wife for any cause?” He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.” They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?” He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”Did Jesus ever even discuss Homosexuality? They wouldn't even have asked Him about it. I can't imagine it. He let the woman that was caught in adultery off the hook. Where are her accusers now? Go and sin no more. It's not about salvation, or eternal life at this point. It's about doing something so repulsive in His sight that He would send fire from Heaven to destroy the sinners. I can hear it in His voice in that verse when the Israelites were sacrificing their children to baal. Something so bizarre that it would even surprise God. It just never even entered into His mind that they would do such a thing. "And because they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent
"And have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal,
a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind - Jeremiah 19:5 This is like a no win discussion. The guy that's really in the right here turns into the bad guy because he doesn't show "love" for his fellow man. I'm more like i'm on the Steve Anderson team. If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out! Better to enter into the kingdom of God as a one eyed dwarf. Because even the LEAST in the kingdom of God is greater than John B. |
|
|
|
Post by davewatchman on Jun 9, 2019 18:29:53 GMT -6
Not a fan of Steven Anderson, but no one preaches perfectly. Anyone who thinks they have the perfect doctrine deceives themselves. Actually, i'm not either. Or at least i wasn't before today. I only ever saw his old Sodomite video from 2013. But there's something about his style i like. I'd like to see him interviewed on 60 minutes or Barbara Walters or something like that. It's kind of like slapstick eschatology. He's like rant but with better neurotransmitters. "Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. I think this guy's doing a pretty good job all by himself in the woods. |
|
