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Post by sog on May 14, 2019 10:13:05 GMT -6
Though this is Wikipedia and to trust it with a grain of salt, I felt I should post what they had regarding it: Isaiah 14:12 is not the only place where the Vulgate uses the word lucifer. It uses the same word four more times, in contexts where it clearly has no reference to a fallen angel: 2 Peter 1:19 (meaning "morning star"), Job 11:17 ("the light of the morning"), Job 38:32 ("the signs of the zodiac") and Psalms 110:3 ("the dawn").[105] Lucifer is not the only expression that the Vulgate uses to speak of the morning star: three times it uses stella matutina: Sirach 50:6 (referring to the actual morning star), and Revelation 2:28 (of uncertain reference) and 22:16 (referring to Jesus). Then the site explains lucifer is not capitalized but they did it in English which gave it a proper name though the original was not capitalized: As a name for the devil, the more common meaning in English, "Lucifer" is the rendering of the Hebrew word הֵילֵל (transliteration: hêylêl; pronunciation: hay-lale)[2] in Isaiah (Isaiah 14:12) given in the King James Version of the Bible. The translators of this version took the word from the Latin Vulgate,[3] which translated הֵילֵל by the Latin word lucifer (uncapitalized),[4][5] meaning "the morning star, the planet Venus", or, as an adjective, "light-bringing". So who is Lucifer? It should be What is lucifer? I will have to disagree with Wikipedia. The WORD lucifer is not used in any of those verses. Even when you hover over their NIV translation link, it's not used. The rest is correct. it's not a proper name, but a description. |
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Post by Servant on May 14, 2019 10:17:47 GMT -6
The Evil One is removed from his original position in Heaven as but is allowed to remain in Heaven to accuse all of us so that the Lord can judge according to our works, faith, etc. The Lord uses evil for good. Beside, the Great War will oust him and prevent him from entering Heaven again. In short, right now, he is up there accusing but he WILL be kicked out for once and forever. Pretty soon as the battle is starting anytime soon. The king is a 'child' of the Evil One, he works according to the wishes of the Evil One. Like anyone on this world who do the deeds that is not of the Lord, we are doing works of the Evil One. That is why if we do the good works, we are the children of God, if we do the works of evil, then we are the children of father of lies, etc. He is the prince of the world, that is why the Lord didn't dispute his claim of the world under his control during the Lord's temptation at the desert. The Evil One said to the Lord, if He serves him, then he will give the kingdoms of the world to Him. The Lord didn't dispute that because its true. The prince has been cast out. John 12: Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me Christ died and rose. The devil was cast down. He is not sealed yet. True, he is cast down, he can't freely go to Heaven but like I said, he is allowed to go and accuse til the battle in Heaven. Right now, he is very limited in accessing Heaven. Revelation 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. |
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Post by venge on May 14, 2019 12:42:39 GMT -6
The prince has been cast out. John 12: Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me Christ died and rose. The devil was cast down. He is not sealed yet. True, he is cast down, he can't freely go to Heaven but like I said, he is allowed to go and accuse til the battle in Heaven. Right now, he is very limited in accessing Heaven. Revelation 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. Servant, right when he is cast down in Rev 12:10, what happened before it? Christ rose to his father. This already happened. Christ died on the cross and ascended to his throne, THUS removing Satan. Now look at the next verse: Who is the women here? To me and others, this is true Israel. The church Christ is the rock of. The women is believers in Him. And Satan/the adversary of Christ as are all who are adversaries of Christ which have been persecuting Christians since Christ death/resurrection. |
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Post by venge on May 14, 2019 12:50:55 GMT -6
Though this is Wikipedia and to trust it with a grain of salt, I felt I should post what they had regarding it: Isaiah 14:12 is not the only place where the Vulgate uses the word lucifer. It uses the same word four more times, in contexts where it clearly has no reference to a fallen angel: 2 Peter 1:19 (meaning "morning star"), Job 11:17 ("the light of the morning"), Job 38:32 ("the signs of the zodiac") and Psalms 110:3 ("the dawn").[105] Lucifer is not the only expression that the Vulgate uses to speak of the morning star: three times it uses stella matutina: Sirach 50:6 (referring to the actual morning star), and Revelation 2:28 (of uncertain reference) and 22:16 (referring to Jesus). Then the site explains lucifer is not capitalized but they did it in English which gave it a proper name though the original was not capitalized: As a name for the devil, the more common meaning in English, "Lucifer" is the rendering of the Hebrew word הֵילֵל (transliteration: hêylêl; pronunciation: hay-lale)[2] in Isaiah (Isaiah 14:12) given in the King James Version of the Bible. The translators of this version took the word from the Latin Vulgate,[3] which translated הֵילֵל by the Latin word lucifer (uncapitalized),[4][5] meaning "the morning star, the planet Venus", or, as an adjective, "light-bringing". So who is Lucifer? It should be What is lucifer? I will have to disagree with Wikipedia. The WORD lucifer is not used in any of those verses. Even when you hover over their NIV translation link, it's not used. The rest is correct. it's not a proper name, but a description. Part of Speech: Adjective Transliteration: phósphorosPhonetic Spelling: (foce-for'-os) Definition: light-bringing, the morning star Usage: (lit: light-bearing), radiant, the morning-star.( LatinLucifer), the planet Venus, the morning-star, day-star (Plato, Tim. Locr., p. 96 e.; Plutarch, others): 2 Peter 1:19, on the meaning of this passage, see λύχνος. |
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Post by Natalie on May 14, 2019 12:55:30 GMT -6
Who is the women here? To me and others, this is true Israel. The church Christ is the rock of. The women is believers in Him. And Satan/the adversary of Christ as are all who are adversaries of Christ which have been persecuting Christians since Christ death/resurrection. "the woman which brought forth the man child" is the church? That doesn't make sense. Jesus didn't come from the church; He was born of David's line, the tribe of Judah, from Israel.
Rev 12:13 Satan pursues the woman who had birthed the child
Rev 12:16 He couldn't her Rev 12:17 then he went after the rest of her offspring (believers-based on the text)
How can verse 13 and 17 both be about Christians?
The woman is not the church.
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Post by venge on May 14, 2019 13:03:17 GMT -6
Who is the women here? To me and others, this is true Israel. The church Christ is the rock of. The women is believers in Him. And Satan/the adversary of Christ as are all who are adversaries of Christ which have been persecuting Christians since Christ death/resurrection. "the woman which brought forth the man child" is the church? That doesn't make sense. Jesus didn't come from the church; He was born of David's line, the tribe of Judah, from Israel.
Rev 12:13 Satan pursues the woman who had birthed the child
Rev 12:16 He couldn't her Rev 12:17 then he went after the rest of her offspring (believers-based on the text)
How can verse 13 and 17 both be about Christians?
The woman is not the church.
I didn't say Jesus came from the Church. The dragon persecutes the women who brought forth the child. That is believers in faith. From righteous Abraham to today. Christ built the church. Are not the Church and believers one today? Now I understand your belief Natalie in Rev 12 sign which I don't follow neither do I condone, but you can call it as you like. We will not agree. So no need to talk about that subject amongst us. |
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Post by Natalie on May 14, 2019 13:16:36 GMT -6
Venge, I didn't even mention the sign. I'm just trying to use the text to understand what you are saying.
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Post by sog on May 14, 2019 13:57:16 GMT -6
I will have to disagree with Wikipedia. The WORD lucifer is not used in any of those verses. Even when you hover over their NIV translation link, it's not used. The rest is correct. it's not a proper name, but a description. Part of Speech: Adjective Transliteration: phósphorosPhonetic Spelling: (foce-for'-os) Definition: light-bringing, the morning star Usage: (lit: light-bearing), radiant, the morning-star.( LatinLucifer), the planet Venus, the morning-star, day-star (Plato, Tim. Locr., p. 96 e.; Plutarch, others): 2 Peter 1:19, on the meaning of this passage, see λύχνος. Maybe we are talking semantics here. I understand the definition, but the fact remains in these instances that the WORD lucifer is never again translated into English as such. The Vulgate may use the word again (and does not in reference to the fallen one), but the Bible does not. |
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Post by sog on May 14, 2019 14:17:44 GMT -6
The Return of the Seventy-Two
Luke 10: 17-18
17 The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!” 18 And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
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Post by Servant on May 14, 2019 14:22:49 GMT -6
True, he is cast down, he can't freely go to Heaven but like I said, he is allowed to go and accuse til the battle in Heaven. Right now, he is very limited in accessing Heaven. Revelation 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. Servant, right when he is cast down in Rev 12:10, what happened before it? Christ rose to his father. This already happened. Christ died on the cross and ascended to his throne, THUS removing Satan. Now look at the next verse: Who is the women here? To me and others, this is true Israel. The church Christ is the rock of. The women is believers in Him. And Satan/the adversary of Christ as are all who are adversaries of Christ which have been persecuting Christians since Christ death/resurrection. I meant the time period between the Lord's life on Earth in the past to the future. In the past to present and the future, the Evil One has steadily has his powers, status, access, etc being limited. Simply, when the Lord got to Heaven, the Evil One can't freely roam the Heaven whenever he wants. He has to get permission or limited access to Heaven so he can accuse us. Perhaps in the future, he will lead a rebellion through force in Heaven during his visitation? Then Archangels and others fight back and forbid him from entering Heaven in any other ways. No idea.
Yes, it is true that the Lord's sacrifice removed him from his position in Heaven. And the Lord became our defender in Heaven against his accusations all day and night. The Lord says that we sin but we accepted His Blood therefore we are with the Lord. The Evil One becomes weaker. Like originally in the garden of Eden, he didn't ask permission to transform into a snake and tempt Eve. Then he had to ask permission to put boils on Job. After the Lord's victory, he is not allowed anymore but tempt us through words. Steady limitation of powers. Only in the future in the Tribulations, he will be allowed to use powers to deceive the world.
Israel brought the church, the Lord worked in Israel and first sow the seed to bring forth the church. The children of Evil One might be knowingly and unknowingly serving the Evil One. Like Peter thought he was doing the right thing telling the Lord to what to do but realized his mistake. Peter didn't know til too late then he changed.
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Post by stormyknight on May 14, 2019 15:07:41 GMT -6
my $.02. Isn't the word Satan a label?
Satan = Adversary (anyone who is an adversary of Jesus Christ/God the Father/Holy Spirit.
Lucifer = Morning Star
Azazel = (from wikipedia)The whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin. According to the Book of Enoch (a book of the Apocrypha), Azazel (here spelled 'ăzā'zyēl) was one of the chief Grigori, a group of fallen angels who married women.
pretty much most all the angels have names that end in 'EL'. so Azazel makes the most sense to me. Also he is named as the scapegoat.
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Post by mike on May 16, 2019 6:39:14 GMT -6
stormyknight , Is it his name or title or both (I believe both)? I think the purpose of the thread was to discuss who is Lucifer. While some have differing opinions on that (Lucifer) I also submit that Satan is the devil, is the accuser of the brethren, is the evil one, etc. Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. (check out the hyperlink to the Hebrew on his name  ) Certainly he is the adversary, but also looks to me as if God calls him that as his name, right? But where it gets a little hazy for me is verses like Numbers 22:22 where adversary is used to describe the angel of the Lord. There are other examples of this title used to describe adversaries throughout scripture. diabolos: slanderous, accusing falsely Original Word: διάβολος, ον Another characterization, title is devil (diabolos) Luke 11:19 uses the term Beelzebub to describe his character further as Lord of flies Also to the point made earlier about Peter ( boraddict) Jesus wasnt necessarily saying Peter was Satan (himself) rather what Peter was saying to Jesus was adversarial and characterizing his behavior, not him personally
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Post by stormyknight on May 16, 2019 8:05:25 GMT -6
stormyknight , Is it his name or title or both (I believe both)? I think the purpose of the thread was to discuss who is Lucifer. While some have differing opinions on that (Lucifer) I also submit that Satan is the devil, is the accuser of the brethren, is the evil one, etc. Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. (check out the hyperlink to the Hebrew on his name ) Certainly he is the adversary, but also looks to me as if God calls him that as his name, right? But where it gets a little hazy for me is verses like Numbers 22:22 where adversary is used to describe the angel of the Lord. There are other examples of this title used to describe adversaries throughout scripture. diabolos: slanderous, accusing falsely Original Word: διάβολος, ον Part of Speech: Adjective Transliteration: diabolos Phonetic Spelling: (dee-ab'-ol-os) Definition: slanderous, accusing falsely Usage: (adj. used often as a noun), slanderous; with the article: the Slanderer (par excellence), the Devil. I'm with you on this, mike. I question it because language changes over time and words get hijacked from their original meaning. Like if I told you I was going to Xerox some papers, you would know that I mean to make copies even though Xerox is that name of a corporation. Also, God calling satan 'satan' in Job, and other scriptures, in perhaps one sense, is like saying to your child, "Hey, knothead, come here and pick up your toys." Knothead is of course not their name, but they've been being ornery or whatever and so you call them by a descriptive name. The name Satan in Job 2:3 is from haś·śā·ṭān, which is where the name Satan comes from, which means: Strong's Concordance
satan: adversary, also the name of the superhuman adversary of God
Original Word: שָׂטָן
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: satan
Phonetic Spelling: (saw-tawn')
Definition: adversary, also the name of the superhuman adversary of God
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
of uncertain derivation <<<(notice this)
Definition
adversary, also the name of the superhuman adversary of God
NASB Translation
accuser (1), adversary (8), Satan (18).
I realize it says that it is 'also the name of the superhuman adversary of God', but that might be one of those descriptive names that has been applied to this superhuman adversary. Do you know what I mean? I'm just saying it's a possibility, not that I firmly believe that that is the case.
Lucifer, on the other hand, has only one occurrence in all of scripture, Isa. 14:12
"How you have fallen from heaven, O Morning Star, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the ground, O destroyer of nations." BSB
“How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!" ESV
"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!" KJV
Morning Star, Day Star, and Lucifer are translated from the word 'helel' which derives from the word 'halel', which means 'to shine'. Helel is 'the shining one'. This is a perfect example of how words meanings change.
So adding the rest of the descriptive name, he is called "O shining one, son of the dawn". Angels/Messengers of God are described as 'Stars', so this is an easy jump to say that Lucifer is "The Morning Star", but is he? As venge stated, 'helel' was not originally capitalized. That happened in the English bibles which made it appear as a name not a description. I like this from the ATS Bible Dictionary: Lucifer
Light-bringer, the Latin name of the morning-star, or "son of the morning." In the figurative language of Scripture, a brilliant star denoted an illustrious prince, Numbers 24:17. Christ was given to men as the "bright and morning Star," Revelation 2:28; 22:16. The word Lucifer is used once only in the English Bible, and then of the king of Babylon, Isaiah 14:12. It is now commonly, though inappropriately, given to the prince of darkness.
Also, is he the same person being talked about in Ezekiel 28? The King of Tyre has some very clear defining statements about him, but no where does it say that he is the 'shining one, son of the dawn'. This guy was "the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty". He was in Eden. He also wore nine precious stones(compare that to the twelve precious stones the High Priest wore.) Is this guy Satan of Job 2:3? Is he Lucifer? Is he Azazel? We know there is more than one 'bad guy', but the name/label Satan has been given to the leader. But I don't think that is his real name, just a descriptive title, 'Adversary'. Names are important and powerful. It was once a thing that if you gave your name to someone, they would have power over you. Perhaps that is why God the Father does not ever give His true name. "I AM" is what He tells Moses, and I don't think there could be a better descriptive term that can explain WHO HE IS. He just "IS". But that is not His name.
"The name is the thing, and the true name is the true thing. To speak the name is to control the thing."— Ursula K. Le Guin, The Rule of Names
The question still remains, Who is Lucifer?
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Post by stormyknight on May 16, 2019 13:29:19 GMT -6
I'm a bit apprehensive about doing too much research in this area because I think one can get lost rather quickly if not guarding their faith and belief in God's scripture. If you 'Google' Who is Lucifer?, a variety of pages are presented. One such page states very clearly what one will find:
"If you are asking the question, “Who is Lucifer?,” the answer that you will find often depends on who you ask or where you perform your search." gnosticwarrior.com/lucifer.html
I found that "Lucifer" is the Latin term for 'morning star'. Plain and simple. Phosphorus is the Greek term for the same thing. In Greek mythology, Phosphorus is the morning star and Hesperus is the evening star, both of which we know as Venus, the Roman mythological name given to the second planet from the sun. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphorus_(morning_star)
The site I got the quote from above, gnosticwarrior.com, gives me pause as it appears to be pro-Freemasonry, something of which I know little about, but am wary of it. (why? because if it is steeped in devil worship, as some say, I think it will be rife with lies and deceit).
If you check out The Book of Enoch, there are at least 16 references to 'satan(s)', but none of which refer to anyone named Lucifer. In fact the name Lucifer does not show up on a word search at all.
So if we rely just on the Holy Scriptures, Lucifer is "the shining one, son of the Dawn". and that's all we've got.
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Post by mike on May 20, 2019 7:23:23 GMT -6
stormyknight , I had written a reply to you and it was sitting here on my computer for the last several days. This morning I clicked reply and the page errored, UGH! In any event I went back and re-read your post. I didnt notice the link to Doctor Jeremiahs blog until today. Basically what I was saying he said, but WAAAYYYYYY better than me  EDIT - I think something I am or try to be cognizant of is that the devil fell. He sinned against God at some point in the past. John 8:44 leads me to think it was at the beginning of time, or at the creation of earth; we simply cannot be certain. However just like we will all receive new names when we are called to glory, its very probable the devil had a different name and character prior to his fall.
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