sigh...to me it's a minor thing. I know you mean well. It's just a detail that is not that big of a deal for me, because I know I'm not going to miss it. I mean, really, He called me first anyway, so I don't think He's going to let me sleep through the alarm.
Those who will be raptured will know it when they hear it. Whether it is a trumpet blast or a voice like a trumpet.
"in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." 1 Cor. 15:52
"And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and they were given seven trumpets." Rev. 8:2
"And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." Matt. 24:31
"Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice" John 5:28
"Shout with the voice of a trumpet blast." Isa. 58:1
"and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,..." Rev. 1:10
"And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud;" Exodus 19:16I think... trumpets are loud. And that which calls the ekklésia home, whether it be a voice or a trumpet, will be loud, and unmistakable. I know I won't be thinking about whether it's a trumpet or a voice when I hear it. I will just be so overjoyed that it's time to go.
Cheers, brother!!!
Is it really a minor thing? Here are a few major issues with pre-trib. But first...
Pre-tribbers believe that even IF they are wrong, they will know because they would recognize the anti-Christ coming to power as a "global dictator." They would recognize the formation of a one world government and one world religion and would recognize the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple. Christians believe in those things because that's what they've been taught by high profile "prophecy experts" for decades.
The anti-Christ kingdom is NOT worldwide, he is not a global dictator, and his sidekick false prophet does not have a one world religion. Neither will he be Jewish, Roman, or emerge from the EU or America. His kingdom is an Islamic Caliphate situated in the Arab Middle-East.
Now back to pre-trib...
If there is no rapture that takes place, then, to a pre-tribber, EVEN IF THE WORLD HAS GONE BAD and launched into tribulation,
we are not in tribulation because according to them, the gathering occurs before tribulation. If there is no rapture, no one world government, no global dictator or one world religion, false prophet, or rebuilt temple, not only are we NOT in tribulation, not only are we NOT in the final days before Christ return, but they have NOT prepared to endure it.
Here are a few things I'd like to address with Gary's page...
The pre-trib rapture is a very long and entailed belief system. In my view, every verse pre-tribbers use/interpret to support the belief poses a contradiction. Quote any verse pre-tribbers use to support it and I will show you both the contradiction and what was done to counter that contradiction.
Jesus said, and I believe him,
Immediately after the tribulation of those days...And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:...And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet....
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Gary said,
It doesn't take much searching to know WHO these elect are. In every instance where the word elect is used in the NT it refers to either CHRIST, ANGELS, or Believers whether Jew or gentile. We know that Christ will ot gather angels as they are the ones doing the gathering, and we know Christ will not gather himself. The only other option is BELIEVERS. JEWS are never called Chosen or the elect in the NT.
The ELECT can only refer to Christians! The word 'elect' is the word CHOSEN.
Here are a few examples how the word for 'elect' in Mathew 24 is used elsewhere.
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Check also...
Matthew 20:16, John 13:18, 15:16, Acts 15:22, 15:25, Romans 8:33, 16:13, 1 Corinthians 1:27-28, Ephesians 1:4, Colossians 3:12, James 2:5, 2 Timothy 2:10, Titus 1:1, 1 Peter 1:2, 2:9, 5:13, Revelation 17:14.
Gary said,
Rev. 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
What will Christ protect the Church from? The hour of trial/temptation, correct? Temptation is not the same word as tribulation. The context of the passage has nothing to do with a rapture. The word KEEP doesn't imply a removal from but to be protected through. It implies to take care of not remove from. The promise is not to remove or keep believers out of the trial, but to preserve and protect them through the hour of trial. There are other examples where God's people are protected through trial and judgment.
Gary mentioned,...
The last day...John 6:39-40 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:39-40 isn't talking about a rapture. It's talking about the resurrection. The "last day" is NOT the day before tribulation's FIRST day!
LAST - eschatos
It's the same word used here...
Rev.1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:
Rev. 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev. 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Rev. 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Gary said,
That's another pre-trib fallacy. People who believe that do so because, "that's what the high powered prophecy experts say."
In every instance where the word Church is mentioned in Revelation it refers to a specific Church in Asia minor. Who and where is the Church found in Revelation? They are called saints, servants, fellow-servants, brethren, and martyrs, etc.
The church is "the saints with whom the beast makes war with."
The Church is "the dead who die in the Lord."
"The church is the chosen (Christians) and faithful of ch. 17."
"The church is the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"
"They are the great multitude, which no man could number!"
"They are the ones who have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb!"
"They are the ones who overcame the beast by the blood of the Lamb!"
"They are the ones who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ!"
"They are the ones who would not worship the image of the beast!"
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We are all destined to endure tribulation.
Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
“Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril or sword?”
“They will deliver you to tribulation and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.”
2 Thessalonians 1:7 say that God will “give relief to you who are afflicted … when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven”
Why? I see the why as very, perhaps insurmountable, evidence for a pre-trib rapture.
So called pre-trib scholars can't even agree where/when the gathering occurs in the bible. How can a pre-tribber overcome Jesus' own words where he said, "the gathering occurs "AFTER the tribulation?" I can tell you how. By changing the meaning of the word ELECT, the meaning of the last trump, telling us the last trump is NOT the seventh trumpet but some trumpet at the Jewish feast of trumpets, by changing the meaning of the "Day of the Lord," the meaning of "the last day," the meaning of "the wrath of God," the meaning of "the mystery of God, and by questioning "who will populate the Millennium," and by added another return of Christ," adding another rapture," etc., etc., they tell us the Church will not be here to endure tribulation, and the list goes on. For every one of these contradictions, alternative interpretations rose to conunter them. They are endless.
"Any doctrine like pre-tribulation-ism that has several contradictions and several attemps to counter those contradictions and complications, is always untrue."
The rapture is a timely and strategic act of kindness whereby a loving God removes His own before He returns to do battle to avoid "friendly fire." It's not a sloppy transition of believers that results into something more like a terror attack where planes, trains, and automobiles crash and burn. Pre-trib has made God look imprecise, indiscriminate, and sloppy. The gathering is simple and pristine. It doesn't disgrace how God does things in any way. Why would anybody want to convert to Christianity when the church teaches innocent people will be killed just to remove Christians from tribulation?" That's kind of counter productive.
A new pre-trib 'revelation' is that the rapture occurs in Revelation 12:5 where the man child is 'caught up." I'm sorry folks but that interpretation is way out of line. Word association of "caught up" doesn't indicate the rapture occurs in Revelation 12:5!
The problem with pre-trib and Daniel's 70th week (neither of which I believe are true) is peoples preoccupation with it. They are always trying to place the rapture somewhere in Daniel's 70th week. People should pay more attention understanding WHAT happens instead of WHERE it happens
Luke 21:34-36 "Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth.
In the twinkling of an eye...Does not mean "all at once," it means in a split second. One by one, in a split second, God can remove His own in a matter of hours without stealing, killing, or destroying others in the process.
