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Post by Natalie on Apr 27, 2019 19:30:21 GMT -6
I know there are different opinions on what these words mean. I recently did a study on Romans 9 (The Potter’s Promise if anyone is interested) and then on different verses Calvinists use to defend their view. It really blessed me, so I wanted to share a bit of what I have been studying. I did not want to go into how these words were defined in Strong’s or elsewhere. I wanted to first just use Scripture and context to see what could be understood. How does Scripture use/define these words?
foreknow / foreknew / G4267 proginosko (to know “ginosko”, before “pro”) verb
It is used in the following five verses:
The first one is simply a verse about the Jewish leaders knowing Paul’s background.
Acts 26:5 They have known for a long time, if they are willing to testify, that according to the strictest party of our religion I have lived as a Pharisee. (A more accurate translation might be “Having known me from the beginning”)
Paul uses the word twice in Romans. In Romans 11:2, he is clearly talking about the Jews who God knew before the time of the church. The question was “Did God reject His people?” The answer is “God has not rejected His people whom he foreknew.” Literally – His people whom He knew before. Before what? The context of the questions and answers being asked in Romans is that God has not cast off Israel and replaced them with the Church.
Paul also uses it previously in 8:29. Is Paul also talking about Israel in this verse? “For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers.” First, who is Christ’s brethren? The Jews. So, those He foreknew would have to be from the same group. Going on in 8:30 “And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified.” Notice the verbs are all past tense. I know some say this is the church, that once we believe then it’s done and past tense, but that can’t be quite right because those of us that are still alive are not glorified yet. But it could be true for people like Abraham.
Romans 8:28 is that famous verse about God working all things together for the good of those that love Him. We can take confidence in that because of the verses that follow which show that God worked all things for good for those He knew before; therefore, we can trust He will do the same for us. He conformed them to His image and will do the same for us.
The last two uses are by Peter:
1 Peter 1:20 “He [Christ] was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you.” The NKJV uses the word “foreordained”. I think this one is pretty self explanatory. The Father knew the Son before the world was made and the plan for the Sacrifice was in place from the beginning.
2 Peter 3:17 “You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.” I chuckled at the context of this one because Peter had just reminded his audience that Paul had written similar things to them but some of the things Paul writes are hard to understand and people will twist what he says. But now that they know that, they are not to be carried away by those errors.
foreknowledge G4268 (from G4267) prognosis (knowledge “gnosis” before “pro”) noun
There are two uses of this word:
In First Peter, Peter is writing to Christians who are in various places “according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with His blood.”
It’s my belief that whosoever believes in Jesus is added to a group known as the Elect. I think reading the first chapter of First Peter (along with everything else in Scripture) tells us that "the foreknowledge" is God’s plan of salvation – that Christ would come, we were ransomed by His blood by faith, we are sanctified by the Spirit, and we have an inheritance waiting for us, and once we are in Christ we are considered chosen/elect. (I could expand on this idea later as I just did another study on this involving passages such as Ephesians 1 and the parable of the wedding feast.) (1:20 speaks of Christ being foreknown before the foundation of the world and manifested in the last times)
You can see God's plan as foreknowledge in the other use of foreknowledge:
Acts 2:22-24 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves know– this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God raised Him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for Him to be held by it.”
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Post by mike on Apr 27, 2019 20:24:35 GMT -6
Fascinating study Natalie, thank you for sharing!
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Post by Natalie on Apr 28, 2019 20:42:08 GMT -6
There are so many grand things I have been thinking about the past couple of weeks. I don't know if grand is the right word, but it has to do with God's omniscience, so it's pretty grand.  I think that some, without realizing it, limit God by saying that man does not ultimately have free will and God determines what takes place, even to the point of who receives salvation. But studying the things I have been the past couple of weeks just wants me to shout "God is AMAZING!" Just thinking about how in His sovereignty He can accomplish His plans sinlessly but working through sinful mankind...How in His omniscience He laid out a plan before time began, He gave mankind free will so that they could make their own decisions, (yet God's plan is still accomplished!!), and how through the power of the gospel man can be saved and have a relationship with Him. Here's another amazing passage: Ephesians 1:3-14 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory." It's all about Jesus! It always has been! Before the foundation of the world, God predestined that whosoever would believe (John 3:16, Eph 1:13) would then be placed in Christ, adopted as sons, to be holy and blameless before Him. Those who are in Christ are called the elect - a group of chosen people based on their faith. He also predestined that in Him we receive an inheritance, guaranteed by the seal of the Holy Spirit (See also 1 Peter 1:4-5). |
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Post by Natalie on May 4, 2019 11:09:18 GMT -6
I'm just going to add more of my studies to this thread...it's all kind of related anyway... John 1:9-13 The true Light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him (Col 1:16-17) yet the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own people did not receive Him. (He will be rejected by most of the Jews) But to all who did receive Him, who believed in His name (this will be mostly Gentiles Acts 28:28), He gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Who does it say can become children of God? "All who did receive Him, who believed in His name." Those that saw the miracles and heard the teachings and believed in Him as Messiah. Those who heard things like John 3:14-18 and believed in Him. Those who's hearts were softened and who were already listening to and following the Father (I think of people like Simeon and Anna) The Gentiles who Paul will be sent to.
It is not by simply being of Jewish descent (of blood), it is not those who pursue it by works of the law (the flesh), it cannot be taken by force or declaration (will of man). It comes from God to those who believe. (Gal 3:26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith)
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
(A lot of my studying lately has originated from the website soteriology101.com. The guy's name is Leighton Flowers. He was a former Calvinist pastor who left Calvinism for what might be called a Traditionalist or Provisional point of view. He also wrote The Potter's Promise which is a study on Romans 9.)
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Post by boraddict on May 4, 2019 13:39:05 GMT -6
Natalie,your posting brings up one of my primary questions that is, What is it about "belief" that is so powerful. In fact, the entire atonement revolves around the individual's belief in Christ; otherwise the atonement has no purpose. I guess it may be summarized that our belief is our most powerful attribute. With or belief in Christ we obtain eternal salvation and without it we obtain eternal damnation. It is for this reason that works are a mute point for without the belief in Christ works has no effect upon salvation, and with the belief in Christ works helps others toward salvation. Thus, works as some purpose in our individual salvation has no effect other than to strengthen our belief in Christ. Like a circle: belief in Christ, works, stronger belief in Christ.
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Post by fitz on May 5, 2019 5:51:05 GMT -6
Natalie said: " Is Paul also talking about Israel in this verse? “For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers.” First, who is Christ’s brethren? The Jews. So, those He foreknew would have to be from the same group. Going on in 8:30 “And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified.” Notice the verbs are all past tense. I know some say this is the church, that once we believe then it’s done and past tense, but that can’t be quite right because those of us that are still alive are not glorified yet. But it could be true for people like Abraham." Great thread! My .02, ramblings, YMMV... This foreknowledge thing is a deep subject. So, I've always applied this passage above to myself. I am Jesus' brother! Because of ... Matthew 12:48-50 Jesus asked, “Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?” Then he pointed to his disciples and said, “Look, these are my mother and brothers. Anyone who does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother!” And we've done His will when we believe in the Son He has sent. Signed, sealed, delivered. Now I also see the "glorified" part as for me too, because just as I am positionally sanctified and perfected, already seated with Christ in heaven, yet still in a body of flesh and clearly NOT perfect, my glorification is a done deal too. I can laid hold of that promise as if it had already occurred, because to God, it has. If not the essence, then at least a big aspect of what it means to believe in Christ; in believing the gospel, you take God at His word that all these promises given to us are already accomplished. History from God's perspective. He said it, it's done. We just haven't seen the manifestation yet. The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, but the manifestation didn't occur until ~33AD. Hebrews 11:1 I've often said to people, "I became immortal at the age of 12." Praise you, Jesus! But foreknowledge, the omniscience of God where He sees eternity past through eternity future is difficult to wrap your mind around. Makes my brain hurt to think about it too long. Almost like contemplating eternity. So grateful we don't have to understand it all, but just believe and trust as a child.
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Post by Natalie on May 5, 2019 7:13:03 GMT -6
Yes, that's how I have always looked at it, too.
It is a deep subject, and as complex as God is we will never understand completely. But I have been blessed thinking about these things.
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Post by mike on May 5, 2019 9:06:51 GMT -6
Natalie - I read a relatable verse in Esther today
8:17 And in every province and in every city, wherever the king’s command and his edict reached, there was gladness and joy among the Jews, a feast and a holiday. And many from the peoples of the country declared themselves Jews, for fear of the Jews had fallen on them.
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Post by Natalie on May 8, 2019 19:59:26 GMT -6
Like Rahab's story, too. The people were afraid of the Jews because of their God. But in this story only just her family joins the Jews. I'm sure God would have taken whoever wanted to though.
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Post by Natalie on May 8, 2019 20:23:58 GMT -6
One of the parables that Jesus tells is that "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a certain king (The Father) who arranged a marriage for his son (Jesus), and sent out his servants (prophets and apostles) to call those who were invited to the wedding (the Jewish people); and they were not willing to come. Again, he sent out other servants, saying, 'Tell those who are invited, "See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding."' But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his business. And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. (We see this through out the OT and NT) But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. (The Jews were sent into exile before and would be scattered again with Jerusalem being destroyed) Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. Therefore, go into the highways (to the Gentiles), and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.' So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. (The invitation is not based on anything they would have done or righteousness they had on their own) And the wedding hall was filled with guests. "But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment (he was not clothed in the righteousness of Christ that comes by grace through faith Gal 3:27 for example, or Zech 3:4). So he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' "For many are called, but few are chosen.'" (Matthew 22:1-14)
How is one chosen? By having on the right garments. How do we get those garments? By the great exchange "For our sake He made Him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God." By our faith in Him we are dressed in His righteous garments. We heard the call (invitation), we believed, and we were accepted (chosen).
(Now, this is a parable. We know that the church is not a guest at the wedding supper but is considered the bride. But this is a parable about God's kingdom.)
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2019 23:08:42 GMT -6
"For this reason they could not believe" John 12:39.......John gives the answer in the next verse. Why could the Jews not believe? Was it because they were spiritually dead, for after all, how could a dead man believe? That is not the answer John gives in the next verse, John 12:40.
Calvinists ask, how can a dead man do anything? But my question from the Scripture, is why does God have to blind the eyes of a dead man?
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Post by Natalie on May 9, 2019 7:38:25 GMT -6
And teaching in parables...that would be another blindfold for dead men. How do they explain things like Mark 6:6 that Jesus marveled at their unbelief? If God blinds people, wouldn't He know they wouldn't believe? You mentioned John 12:39-40 so I wanted to post the whole context because it is also a passage that came up with the ones I have been studying. Paul also quotes the same passage from Isaiah in Acts 28:23-28 but he quotes it a little differently. He puts the responsibility on the people for their hard hearts. Jesus had just ridden into Jerusalem on the donkey, God speaks from heaven, He says many things including "And I, when I am lifted up from earth, will draw all people to myself." and also "While you have the Light, believe in the Light, that you may become sons of light." "When Jesus had said these things, He departed and hid Himself from them. Though He had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in Him, so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: 'Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?' Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, 'He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.' Isaiah said these things because he saw His glory and spoke of Him. Nevertheless, many even of the authorities believed in Him, but for fear of the Pharisees they did not confess it, so that they would not be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the glory that comes from man more than the glory that comes from God." This passage was compared to what took place with Pharaoh. Pharaoh had seen the miracles and signs but had hardened his heart against God and His people. So, God made sure and kept his heart in that state in order to complete His redemptive purposes. Just like the many Jews who heard His words and saw the works He did but would not believe. God then kept them in that state until after the Resurrection. We see in Acts the many that then come to believe as the disciples seek to persuade them of the truth. (Acts 3:37-41 for example) So, God either didn't blind all of Israel, or it was only a temporary blindness until His redemptive purposes came to pass. (see also 2 Corinthians 3:12-16)
ETA: The Isaiah passage is also partially quoted in Mark 4:12 when the 12 ask Him why He teaches in parables. Also in greater length in Matt 13 in the parallel passage. Jesus puts the responsibility on the people for their hard hearts, but the disciples had softer hearts and were able to see and understand.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2019 17:57:39 GMT -6
Natalie I am in complete agreement with you on this.....excellent thoughts and insight, thanks for posting this!
Certain verses leap out like the one you mentioned...."Jesus marveled".......that should stop us in our tracks and cause us to ask, what was it that caused the Creator of the Universe to marvel?
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Post by Natalie on May 9, 2019 18:19:51 GMT -6
I have so enjoyed the studying I have done the past couple of weeks. I am glad that I can share it to bless others.
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Post by Natalie on May 14, 2019 13:12:29 GMT -6
One Bible studying tip I read was to print out the chapter or book you want to study. Use double space and wide margins. It's a great way to mark up the text without worrying about ruining anything (or trying to read the text later ). I am currently trying to work through Ephesians. There is some good stuff there. I posted in one of my comments above about how we are "in Christ." Paul uses those words and that concept a lot in chapters 1 and 2. God had an amazing plan for those who would be in Christ. I posted the following on cwood's thread (which has a lot of good questions to think on): In Chapter 1, some of the things that Christ accomplished for those who are in Him. 1) We have every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places 2) we are seen as holy and blameless before Him 3) We are adopted as sons 4) We have redemption - the forgiveness of our trespasses 5) He lavishes the riches of His grace on us 6) We have obtained an inheritance that is guaranteed by the Spirit (If you are ever having a bad day, trying meditating on some of that. ) In Chapter 2: 1) He shows His immeasurable riches of His grace and kindness for all ages to come 2) We are His workmanship 3) We, as Gentiles, are now brought near 4) He united Jews and Gentiles 5) We now have access to the Father 6) We are being built into a dwelling place for God Paul sets up lots of good solid doctrine and then moves into how a Christian should then live. That's the part I am up to. I did have one other passage I studied that goes along with the stuff at the beginning of the thread. I just haven't had time to pull all my notes together. |
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I think that some, without realizing it, limit God by saying that man does not ultimately have free will and God determines what takes place, even to the point of who receives salvation. But studying the things I have been the past couple of weeks just wants me to shout "God is AMAZING!" Just thinking about how in His sovereignty He can accomplish His plans sinlessly but working through sinful mankind...How in His omniscience He laid out a plan before time began, He gave mankind free will so that they could make their own decisions, (yet God's plan is still accomplished!!), and how through the power of the gospel man can be saved and have a relationship with Him.
