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Post by watchmanjim on May 21, 2017 13:36:10 GMT -6
How many tribes of Israel are there? Generally, there are two correct answers. 12 and 13.
Officially, there are 12 tribes, and in practically every list in the Bible, one is missing. Usually the explanation is found in the Levi exemption and/or the Joseph duality. When talking about the landed tribes, we except Levi. When we talk about the 12 in regards to the sons of Jacob they are descended from, we merge Ephraim and Manasseh back into the single tribe of Joseph, and include Levi.
There is one place in the Bible that does not mention Simeon, I forget which book, maybe a list in Deuteronomy.
The most curious omission, to me, is the omission of the Tribe of Dan from the list in Revelation 7. This is the chapter enumerating the 144,000 servants of the Lamb. There are 12,000 from each tribe, and the tribes are mentioned by name. Levi is mentioned, and so is Joseph, but then a curious thing happens. We see Manasseh listed, whom we might have expected to see consolidated under Jospeh, and we deduce from the list given, that the tribe of Dan is excluded.
The only other chapter of the Bible I have found that mentions the 144,000 is Rev. 14, and it clearly states that these 144,000 are very special to the Lamb-- a very exclusive group:
Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
To be counted among these servants of the Lamb will be a massive distinguishing achievement.
So what did Dan do to fall short of this honor?
Well, a passage in Judges indicates that Dan was instrumental in perpetuating Northern Israel's idolatry. But all the tribes participated, and it was begun right from the beginning by Jereboam and Co. From this alone, I have a hard time singling them out as particularly cursed, disinherited, etc.
Also, it is reassuring that in Ezekiel 48 that Dan will have his apportioned land in Israel in the Millennial Kingdom.
Jacob's blessing of Dan also provides some clues in Gen. 49, as well as Moses's blessings on the tribe in Deut. 33.
Gen 49:16 Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel.
Gen 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.
Deu 33:22 And of Dan he said, Dan is a lion's whelp: he shall leap from Bashan.
The word "dan" in Hebrew is only two letters, "dalet-nun" and means "judge" and other derivative ideas.
Interestingly, the prophet Daniel's name means "God's judge."
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Post by whatif on May 21, 2017 14:46:09 GMT -6
I'm so glad you opened a thread about Dan, watchmanjim! I've been wondering why Dan isn't mentioned with the 144,000 in Revelation 7.
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Post by watchmanjim on May 24, 2017 7:49:23 GMT -6
So Amy Van Gerpen shared this, which is as good an explanation as I have seen so far. . . . www.trackingbibleprophecy.org/revelation7A.php#5-8I also added the following commentary regarding Ephraim: As for the mystery of Joseph vs. Ephraim, I don't know for sure what it means, but it may be that the main body of Ephraim (which Gen. 47 indicates should be a vast number of people today) may be included among those who currently or historically transgressed egregiously against the Lord, and so are excepted from the blessing of contributing to the 144,000, but--maybe not all of Ephraim was this way, but some were/are more agreeable to the Lord. For instance, the current Samaritans are a small people, but they do not worship idols, and many of their people trace lineage to Ephraim and Manasseh. The tribes are hard to identify around the globe, but where we do see some (such as in India and Africa) there seem to be multiple examples of remnants from the same tribe, such as Manasseh, though it's inconclusive. So maybe various remnants of Ephraim exist around the globe today, and perhaps some of them are more likely candidates to be witnesses, than those who are part of the main tribe (wherever and whomever that may be). |
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Post by yardstick on Jul 8, 2017 16:10:13 GMT -6
I was reading this thread and started looking at who is described in revelation 7 as the 144,000. It is interesting to note who is counted as a tribe of Israel in Rev 7:
vs 4: Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
...tribe of Judah 12,000...
...tribe of Reuben 12,000...
...tribe of Gad 12,000...
...tribe of Asher 12,000...
...Naphtali 12,000...
...Manasseh 12,000...
...Simeon 12,000...
...Levi 12,000...
...Issachar 12,000...
...Zebulun 12,000...
...Joseph 12,000...
...Benjamin 12,000...
Wait, what?
Where is Ephraim? Where is Dan? Not Sealed? Why are the Levites listed? Why is Joesph listed when is portion was split between his sons?
How does this compare with the setup for the original 12 tribes?
Didn't Ephraim and Manasseh supplant Levi for the inheritance allotment at the time of the entry into the Promised Land? That would give
Judah
Ruben
Issachar
Gad
Naphtali
Asher
Simeon
Zebulun
Benjamin
Manasseh
Ephraim
Did Dan as a tribe, merge with Judah at one point? If so,that would explain why they aren't in the list.
But Levi was not given a land inheritance in the Promised Land. Only 48 towns:
Josh. 13:14
14But to the tribe of Levi he gave no inheritance, since the food offerings presented to the Lord, the God of Israel, are their inheritance, as he promised them.
Josh 21:3 & 41
3So, as the Lord had commanded, the Israelites gave the Levites the following towns and pasturelands out of their own inheritance...41The towns of the Levites in the territory held by the Israelites were forty-eight in all, together with their pasturelands...
In fact, weren't the Levites the only ones who could serve in the Temple and Tabernacle? They were reserved to the Lord as first-fruits for that purpose?
Num. 3:11-13 & 44-48 Where the Levites are taken in lieu of the firstborn claimed by the Lord during the first Passover in Egypt (vs 13).
Deut. 18:1-2
1The Levitical priests—indeed, the whole tribe of Levi—are to have no allotment or inheritance with Israel. They shall live on the food offerings presented to the Lord, for that is their inheritance. 2They shall have no inheritance among their fellow Israelites; the Lord is their inheritance, as he promised them.Num. 1:48-53
48The Lord had said to Moses: 49“You must not count the tribe of Levi or include them in the census of the other Israelites. 50Instead, appoint the Levites to be in charge of the tabernacle of the covenant law—over all its furnishings and everything belonging to it. They are to carry the tabernacle and all its furnishings; they are to take care of it and encamp around it. 51Whenever the tabernacle is to move, the Levites are to take it down, and whenever the tabernacle is to be set up, the Levites shall do it. Anyone else who approaches it is to be put to death. 52The Israelites are to set up their tents by divisions, each of them in their own camp under their standard. 53The Levites, however, are to set up their tents around the tabernacle of the covenant law so that my wrath will not fall on the Israelite community. The Levites are to be responsible for the care of the tabernacle of the covenant law.”
Given the information we have learned and discovered about the Temple and Abomination of Desolation (AoD); does it make sense to draw the conclusion that Levi is listed in the 144,000 because they can't perform their duties in the temple? Which would allow a conclusion to be drawn that the sealing of the 144,000 occurs about the time (if not directly after) of the AoD?
What then of Ephraim? Was Ephraim combined with another tribe like Dan? Destroyed as a Tribe? Was Manasseh given a double portion, explaining why Joseph is listed, making Ephraim under Joseph?
Can someone who has a bit more knowledge fill in the missing information? There is something odd about the details of the passage.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2017 16:17:17 GMT -6
Lol! Welcome yardstick! Looks like we have our work cut out for us! You've got lots of great questions!
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Post by whatif on Jul 8, 2017 19:17:49 GMT -6
Welcome to the forum, yardstick! It's a pleasure to meet you! I'm going to venture just a little guess about Levi being in the list of the 144,000 sealed. It is likely because the sealing isn't necessarily tied to land portions. The 144,000 are simply those who will be the Lord Jesus' followers from all the tribes of Israel.
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 9, 2017 11:44:08 GMT -6
Welcome, yardstick! Good to have you "on board." I agree with whatif about Levi. The witness of the 144,000 is nothing directly to do with land apportionment, so that means Levi can be included. As for Dan and Ephraim, that is one of the biggest mysteries in all of Revelation. I am going to take your post and these below it and merge it with a thread where we have already been discussing this.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2017 13:15:59 GMT -6
Welcome yardstick! I've always hoped that I was part of the Israelites, but Dispora Israelites, so I wouldn't know. I can dream, I guess
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 9, 2017 23:03:21 GMT -6
I just read something in Deuteronomy today that may or may not shed a little light on Dan and/or Ephraim.
The implications are dire, but don't despair, I have more good news at the end:
Deu 29:18 Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;
Deu 29:19 And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst:
Deu 29:20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.
Deu 29:21 And the LORD shall separate him unto evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this book of the law:
That's pretty grim. Even a whole tribe could be cast out. . . .
But in the very next chapter we see this:
Deu 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
Deu 30:2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
Deu 30:3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
Deu 30:4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
Deu 30:5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Deu 30:7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
Deu 30:8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.
And I will point out that Dan is solidly listed first in the tribes in Ezekiel 48 for receiving his portion of the land in the Millennial Kingdom. Even the wicked idolatry of Dan shall be removed and forgiven.
Eze 48:1 Now these are the names of the tribes. From the north end to the coast of the way of Hethlon, as one goeth to Hamath, Hazarenan, the border of Damascus northward, to the coast of Hamath; for these are his sides east and west; a portion for Dan.
Eze 48:2 And by the border of Dan, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Asher.
Eze 48:3 And by the border of Asher, from the east side even unto the west side, a portion for Naphtali.
etc.
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Post by Natalie on Jul 13, 2017 19:38:24 GMT -6
I was doing some studying and searching in response to a different post, but I ran across an explanation why Ephraim and Dan are not mentioned in the list in Revelation. When the nation was divided, Jeroboam (of the tribe of Ephraim) ruled the northern 10 tribes. He led them into idolatry, setting up two idols -- one in his territory and one in the town of Dan, in the territory of the tribe by the same name. Because they turned the people away from the true God, they are left off in Revelation. However, they will both get land in the Millennial Kingdom according to Ezekiel.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2017 20:05:09 GMT -6
That would make sense. His promises Will remain the same however he will stop mentioning a name if displeased Him. Idolatry is a huge offense.
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 14, 2017 22:11:34 GMT -6
I think that is similar to what Amy Van Gerpen was saying, too. And it makes sense. Today, the alleged Beta Israel tribe of Dan is one of the few "northern tribes" that has self-identified a modern population. I say alleged and self-identified, because there are many who doubt that these are true Israelites, and so on. Initial genetic tests are sketchy at best to link them to modern Jews. They come out of Ethiopia and are assimilating into the state of Israel. It is not a super harmonious fit. However, with all the prophecies (and the omission of Revelation 7) it all adds to the mystique of mysterious Dan. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_Israel |
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Post by yardstick on Jul 16, 2017 1:16:11 GMT -6
Welcome, yardstick! Good to have you "on board." I agree with whatif about Levi. The witness of the 144,000 is nothing directly to do with land apportionment, so that means Levi can be included. As for Dan and Ephraim, that is one of the biggest mysteries in all of Revelation. I am going to take your post and these below it and merge it with a thread where we have already been discussing this. I think I was too specific about the land apportionment part. I was trying to give an example. They are also not subject to the census, iirc. I suspect that there are more criteria to set them apart. Also, I think I found out (during a debate today) where Ephraim went: Genesis 48: 17-19 17When Joseph saw his father placing his right hand on Ephraim’s head he was displeased; so he took hold of his father’s hand to move it from Ephraim’s head to Manasseh’s head. 18Joseph said to him, “No, my father, this one is the firstborn; put your right hand on his head.” 19But his father refused and said, “I know, my son, I know. He too will become a people, and he too will become great. Nevertheless, his younger brother [Ephraim] will be greater than he, and his descendants will become a group of nations.” Hypothesis: Ephraim's portion is with the Trib/Pre-Trib Saints! so, of course, he isn't in the list! |
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 16, 2017 6:50:28 GMT -6
Hmm, that's a thought. . . . . and I think somebody mentioned it before, but maybe not in this thread. One thing I'm quite sure of, in all the prophecies of the tribes, the named tribes almost certainly (in my opinion) refer to physical descendants of these tribes. (There are some who would make them out to be some symbolic thing, which I don't agree with). So-- that still brings us around to the question of who these people groups are. The most widely distributed hypothesis I've encountered about Ephraim's identity makes his tribe out to be the English people, or sometimes the United States (a multitude of nations). That concept usually goes hand-in-hand with what I generally call British Israelism, a concept that, in its usual presentation, I cannot countenance as anything like accurate. In fact the concept, or at least, the commonly presented concept, of British Israelism is very flawed in its logic, sophomoric in its conclusions, and extremely poorly documented. On this website we frown on discussion of British Israelism (I know that you did not bring it up, Yardstick, so I'm not trying to lay that on you ) that is, we frown on it in its customary and dogmatic form. We had a user on the forum who persisted with proliferating too much of it, too quickly, too dogmatically, and, as often happens with British Israelism, it included racism. IF anybody had good documentation to support any of the claims of who the lost tribes are, that would be great. In my opinion, we won't be able to positively identify any of the tribes in modern times until one of the following things happens: 1. Newly discovered documentation shows what happened to the tribes. 2. DNA tests are able to isolate the man Jacob as an ancestor (and separate him from Esau, Ishmael, etc.) 3. God self-identifies to the members of the tribes through visions or revelations (probably not until after the Rapture) 4. The Two Witnesses tell who is an Israelite, and what tribe they belong to.(Also after the Rapture). |
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Post by yardstick on Jul 16, 2017 17:26:59 GMT -6
... (I know that you did not bring it up, Yardstick, so I'm not trying to lay that on you ) ... Thanks for that! (It was not my intent!) I was just trying to figure out the puzzle... its what I do . heh In any case, it is probably a moot point for believers (non-essential, just fun to bat around)! |
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