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Post by venge on Apr 1, 2019 6:59:42 GMT -6
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Post by mike on Apr 1, 2019 13:15:00 GMT -6
i suppose we shouldnt be surprised brother Venge. At the moment I cant say anything that isnt nice and I do not wish to disparage Catholics. My initial reaction is this is Anti-Christ in action. Those without discernment wouldnt know what to do as they see the pope as the vicar and will follow his directive PS - I'm not saying you were saying anything bad, just everything I typed then erased didnt come across too nice  |
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Post by rt on Apr 1, 2019 13:24:40 GMT -6
It is like we live in upside down world, things like this just blow my mind. |
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Post by cwood85 on Apr 1, 2019 13:37:10 GMT -6
Wellllllll I may not have the most popular viewpoints on this topic, but hear me out before anyone starts to throw stones (figuratively that is) at me. I read the article three times to ensure that I was understanding what I was reading and the message being written to others and recognized that this article is written by an orthodox Jewish writer. Yes that DOES make a difference in the tone used and the way this article is being related to the audience because that is what Judaism opinion is in regards to Christianity. We are a cult and covert and they are the one true religion and light of the world. But what was quoted from the pope, is not referring to evangelizing. Firstly, the word used here is not evangelize nor is even in the ball park if sharing the gospel. proselytism; refers to the attempt of any religion or religious individuals to convert people to their beliefs, or any attempt to convert people to a different point of view, religious or not. Now I am no fan of the Pope and would I ever love to say a thing or two to him, however he did not state to not share the gospel, but NOT to convert and there is a difference. The article did not go into detail as to how this "converting" was being done. It could have be peaceful or it could not be peaceful. The RC has quite the long history of forcefully converting through torture and murder. Not all that much different than Islam. He did not say do not speak of Christ or similar. I know it is stated from Him that Jews, Catholics, Christians, Islam all worship the same God, however I do not think that is the reason he is stating what he is. If there is manipulation or similar occuring to try and get people to believe than he can certainly come in and say don't do that.
It is not our job to convert or make people believe. We speak the good news and let God be God.
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Post by Natalie on Apr 1, 2019 14:46:13 GMT -6
But isn't evangelizing a form of proselytizing? (I'm just trying understand the terms) Aren't we sharing the gospel so they will know the truth and leave Islam to follow Christ? I get what you are saying...no converting by force or coercion. Which I agree we need to avoid. God is the one who changes hearts and converts them. But I guess in my mind, proselytizing is more of a persuading than a forcing. Evangelizing like Paul, "And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and tried to persuade Jews and Greeks." Would that be considered proselytizing?
ETA: I am trying to find the Pope's speech in English or with English subtitles. If anyone can find it or a transcript so that we can have context, that would be great.
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Post by Natalie on Apr 1, 2019 15:22:42 GMT -6
Listening to some of his other speeches (Like the one recorded here:
it seems that this trip of the Pope's is to get Christians and Muslims to work together for peace. They need to respect each other's religious beliefs; therefore, no proselytizing. Focus on what you have in common (although the Pope seems to think we have the same God in common -- like here: www.romereports.com/en/2019/03/28/pope-sends-message-to-morocco-lets-respect-each-other-in-diversity/) The comment from the article being they would come to an impasse...so focused on converting each other they won't look at what they have in common and therefore they will not be at peace. That's what I make of it. I think the Pope is wrong. You can work on peace with your neighbor and share with them the gospel. |
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Post by venge on Apr 1, 2019 17:22:44 GMT -6
But isn't evangelizing a form of proselytizing? (I'm just trying understand the terms) Aren't we sharing the gospel so they will know the truth and leave Islam to follow Christ? I get what you are saying...no converting by force or coercion. Which I agree we need to avoid. God is the one who changes hearts and converts them. But I guess in my mind, proselytizing is more of a persuading than a forcing. Evangelizing like Paul, "And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and tried to persuade Jews and Greeks." Would that be considered proselytizing?
ETA: I am trying to find the Pope's speech in English or with English subtitles. If anyone can find it or a transcript so that we can have context, that would be great.
Evangelize is sharing the gospel and doing so is in hope of converting from a sinner to a redeemer. That is proselytizing. We don’t share the gospel just to talk. Our intent is to sow seed that it may grow. Proselytizing to others that may not know Jesus. It’s not forced, but our hope is always that the sinner converts. Not to my church, not to my religious beliefs, not to doctrine I follow. But accepts he is a sinner, Christ died, resurrected and he can be forgiven is how it starts. The pope asking people not to convert others is the same as saying don’t evangelize imo |
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Post by cwood85 on Apr 1, 2019 17:40:42 GMT -6
Listening to some of his other speeches (Like the one recorded here:
it seems that this trip of the Pope's is to get Christians and Muslims to work together for peace. They need to respect each other's religious beliefs; therefore, no proselytizing. Focus on what you have in common (although the Pope seems to think we have the same God in common -- like here: www.romereports.com/en/2019/03/28/pope-sends-message-to-morocco-lets-respect-each-other-in-diversity/) The comment from the article being they would come to an impasse...so focused on converting each other they won't look at what they have in common and therefore they will not be at peace. That's what I make of it. I think the Pope is wrong. You can work on peace with your neighbor and share with them the gospel. I have not listened to the video. But a Middle East mindset is different than ours. It’s a very I am right and your wrong, literally to the death sometimes. They are passionate in their beliefs to the point of doing extremes to prove it. The deeper root of this is both are trying to prove something based on their own abilities and knowledge. I am right and you are wrong is happening on both sides. I know better than you, my God is better than yours and so on. This boils down to relying on ones own abilities and faith in their own faith, which isn’t good. Don’t prove who is right or wrong, show the gospel! I mean that in regards to the article, not anyone here. I don’t want to go into too much without watching the video and I do not have time right now. The word he used to describe what is happening is not the same as sharing, speaking, teaching and etc. It is strictly meaning conversion or to convert. Evangelizing is not converting. We can plant the seed, but we should not try to force it to grow. It doesn’t work that way, with anyone. If we think we need to convert by sharing the gospel, we need to reevaluate what we think the gospel means. When we plant a garden, we can mend and tend it. Weed it, water, and fertilize to help it grow and be abundant. But we do not physically have any part of making it cells multiply and grow or give it life to live. We can grow a beautiful garden full of fruits and veggies, but one bad storm can wipe all of that out in the blink of an eye. All of our hard work destroyed and the result is uprooted and shredded plants. We can replant and start over but cannot fix what was broken. Only God can do that. My point with this article focusing on Catholics being the main sect of Christianity is that they do not evangelize, they convert. You cannot be a part of many events and organizations without becoming “catholic” which is undergoing a series of teachings and rituals and being ordained by a priest as officially catholic. This article is not talking about the gospel, it is talking about be accepted into one RELIGION over another. These religions are trying to play God and it is easy to say they all worship the same God. They do. His name is THEMSELVES |
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Post by Natalie on Apr 1, 2019 18:55:13 GMT -6
cwood85 - Let me see if I can summarize and let me know if I am understanding things... The Pope says not to proselytize. In the Catholic mind, proselytizing means making (converting) non-Catholics into Catholics. It has to do with religion -- Islam is wrong; Catholicism is right. Obviously this is a hindrance to peace between the two. To the evangelical mind, proselytizing means presenting the gospel (evangelizing the lost--the Great Commission)--planting the seeds and watering so that they may come to faith in Jesus by the grace of God and power of the Holy Spirit. God being the one that does the changing (converting) of the non-believer into a believer. But He does it through the preaching of the Gospel. I think we are basically dealing with semantics. I see converting as being a person who changes from one religion to another. Converting from Islam to Christianity is a good thing; to be a Christian convert is a good thing. But ONLY if a person becomes a TRUE follower of Christ not a follower of a religious system. You see it as the Catholics forcing people to become Catholics or evangelicals forcing Christianity (which of course is bad). The whole thing is wrong because Catholics aren't sharing the gospel, they are just trying to get converts. Am I close? (and don't worry about the video--it's just him calling for peace)
I am just unclear why you see the word convert as being such a negative thing? We preach the Gospel in hopes that people will convert from a false religion or no religion at all to becoming a follower of Christ. That's the only way to salvation.
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Post by mike on Apr 1, 2019 20:05:00 GMT -6
Isn't this a good thing? Why shouldn't we be happy that the head Catholic told all Catholics to not share their false dogma
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Post by cwood85 on Apr 2, 2019 6:27:21 GMT -6
cwood85 - Let me see if I can summarize and let me know if I am understanding things... The Pope says not to proselytize. In the Catholic mind, proselytizing means making (converting) non-Catholics into Catholics. It has to do with religion -- Islam is wrong; Catholicism is right. Obviously this is a hindrance to peace between the two. To the evangelical mind, proselytizing means presenting the gospel (evangelizing the lost--the Great Commission)--planting the seeds and watering so that they may come to faith in Jesus by the grace of God and power of the Holy Spirit. God being the one that does the changing (converting) of the non-believer into a believer. But He does it through the preaching of the Gospel. I think we are basically dealing with semantics. I see converting as being a person who changes from one religion to another. Converting from Islam to Christianity is a good thing; to be a Christian convert is a good thing. But ONLY if a person becomes a TRUE follower of Christ not a follower of a religious system. You see it as the Catholics forcing people to become Catholics or evangelicals forcing Christianity (which of course is bad). The whole thing is wrong because Catholics aren't sharing the gospel, they are just trying to get converts. Am I close? (and don't worry about the video--it's just him calling for peace)
I am just unclear why you see the word convert as being such a negative thing? We preach the Gospel in hopes that people will convert from a false religion or no religion at all to becoming a follower of Christ. That's the only way to salvation.
Yes Catholics convert into Catholics and not by evangelizing. You cannot marry a catholic unless you are catholic. You can attend a Catholic Church, but there are certain things you are not allowed to do if you are not catholic. You cannot even participate in communion if you are not catholic. Catholics consider their churches and their priests as holy. You are saved by the church and the priest. To a catholic it is the supreme belief and religion. That is what makes this article tricky. It is written by a Jewish writer. They view catholic and Christianity as pretty much the same because both believe Jesus is the son of God. Jews do not. Like mike said, it’s actually not really a bad thing. |
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Post by venge on Apr 2, 2019 6:38:04 GMT -6
Isn't this a good thing? Why shouldn't we be happy that the head Catholic told all Catholics to not share their false dogma I realize that it isn’t a bad thing when we think about false doctrine but I believe there are some in the Catholic Church that may be truly saved. We have spoken to some when we go out. But when I think of it, told not to evangelize so you don’t upset them in a peace process, I think when will that happen to the rest of us? I’d be so bold to say 95% of all People that identify as Christians do not and have not walked outside to tell others about Christ. Especially on a weekday or Saturday. If a leader ever said don’t go out and talk about Christ, it isn’t safe. Do you choose safety? Or do you share the gospel knowing you may get hurt? |
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Post by stormyknight on Apr 2, 2019 7:09:31 GMT -6
cwood85 - Let me see if I can summarize and let me know if I am understanding things... The Pope says not to proselytize. In the Catholic mind, proselytizing means making (converting) non-Catholics into Catholics. It has to do with religion -- Islam is wrong; Catholicism is right. Obviously this is a hindrance to peace between the two. To the evangelical mind, proselytizing means presenting the gospel (evangelizing the lost--the Great Commission)--planting the seeds and watering so that they may come to faith in Jesus by the grace of God and power of the Holy Spirit. God being the one that does the changing (converting) of the non-believer into a believer. But He does it through the preaching of the Gospel. I think we are basically dealing with semantics. I see converting as being a person who changes from one religion to another. Converting from Islam to Christianity is a good thing; to be a Christian convert is a good thing. But ONLY if a person becomes a TRUE follower of Christ not a follower of a religious system. You see it as the Catholics forcing people to become Catholics or evangelicals forcing Christianity (which of course is bad).
The whole thing is wrong because Catholics aren't sharing the gospel, they are just trying to get converts. Am I close? (and don't worry about the video--it's just him calling for peace)
I am just unclear why you see the word convert as being such a negative thing? We preach the Gospel in hopes that people will convert from a false religion or no religion at all to becoming a follower of Christ. That's the only way to salvation.
verb (used with object) to change (something) into a different form or properties; transmute; transform. to cause to adopt a different religion, political doctrine, opinion, etc.:
Proselytize
verb (used with or without object), pros·e·lyt·ized, pros·e·lyt·iz·ing.
to convert or attempt to convert as a proselyte; recruit.
Semantics and context. If you look at it from the popes POV, 'don't try to convert people to catholicism, focus on similarities', even though it has always been the mindset of hard-core catholics that theirs is the one true religion and in order to get to Heaven, you must become a catholic not 'just a christian'. As I'm sure you all know, pretty much any/all religions have the mindset that if you're not one of them you will burn in hell, with some exceptions of course.
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Post by bernie on Apr 2, 2019 11:56:47 GMT -6
I was raised in an Irish Catholic family and participated in all the Roman superstitions and rituals. No one in the RCC ever shared the true Gospel with me, because they don't understand it, or believe it. To me it's a cult that teaches a false gospel of sacraments, rituals, and works. I'm 63 years old and I've never once seen, or heard of Catholics trying to convert anyone. In my opinion, the only reason Frank brought it up, is because he supports a one world religion and will do anything to push it forward. I joined the Air Force on my 17th birthday, and when I left for boot camp someone at the induction center gave all of us a care package with a shaving kit, letter writing materials, and a Gideon's pocket New Testament with the plan of salvation printed on the inside cover. When I came to understand the truth, that salvation is a free gift that comes to all who believe by God's grace, through simple faith, I was overjoyed. The cult of Rome doesn't believe that or teach it, in fact they teach anyone who does believe it is a heretic. Catholic people need the true Gospel just as much as the people in Morocco. To me it's unconscionable that someone who is supposed to represent Christ would say what he said. But I'm not surprised in the least. In my opinion Bergoglio and the cult of Rome bear considerable watching, because they are enemies of the Gospel.
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