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Post by stormyknight on Feb 7, 2019 10:59:21 GMT -6
"Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;" Luke 6:37
I was brought up with this verse telling me that I should not judge anyone. Ever. Judgement was for our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ alone. It wasn't until the recent past that that line of thinking has changed in me, although I can't pinpoint when exactly.
kjs posted this in the "believes" thread, which prompted me to post this:
"Most of what you listed -- is exactly why I try to avoid judging anyone .... because I do not see their heart and motivations......
So I can only see outside actions ...... "
One needs only to type in the word "judge" in the search bar on Bible Hub and find many verses on how to judge rightly. It is this verse that I think directly addresses what kjs has posted:
"My conscience is clear, but that does not vindicate me. It is the Lord who judges me.
Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God." 1 Cor. 4:4-5
...which I take, at least in this instance, to mean that when we judge we go first to our Lord Jesus to ask for help in judging something/someone and then wait for his answer. His answer, in many cases, comes in that still small voice, 1 Kings 19:12, that gives us insight, although it's through dark glasses, into men's hearts and motivations. So in the exercising of our spirit we learn to trust that still small voice and judge rightly, perhaps making those dark glasses a little clearer.
I guess what I'm getting at is that we are supposed to learn how to judge rightly, like our Lord Jesus would judge. We will make mistakes, of course, but we must endeavor to keep learning because we have a monumental task ahead of us.
"and You have made them a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth." Rev. 5:10
If we are to be kings and priest reigning on the earth in the coming millennium, people will be coming to us with issues and problems and we need to know how to judge rightly. I don't believe we will be judging anyone's ultimate fate, as that, I think, is reserved for our Lord Jesus, but, to guide those living in the ways that they should go. It is a very serious part of our training and should be approached with humility. Consider what Jehoshaphat told the judges he appointed:
“Consider carefully what you do, for you are not judging for man, but for the LORD, who is with you when you render judgment. And now, may the fear of the LORD be upon you. Be careful what you do, for with the LORD our God there is no injustice, partiality, or bribery.” 2 Chronicles 19:6-7
I mean no disrespect to you, kjs. I felt it was something that needed some light shone on it.
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Post by kjs on Feb 7, 2019 15:25:02 GMT -6
"Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;" Luke 6:37
I was brought up with this verse telling me that I should not judge anyone. Ever. Judgement was for our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ alone. It wasn't until the recent past that that line of thinking has changed in me, although I can't pinpoint when exactly.
kjs posted this in the "believes" thread, which prompted me to post this:
"Most of what you listed -- is exactly why I try to avoid judging anyone .... because I do not see their heart and motivations......
So I can only see outside actions ...... "
One needs only to type in the word "judge" in the search bar on Bible Hub and find many verses on how to judge rightly. It is this verse that I think directly addresses what kjs has posted:
"My conscience is clear, but that does not vindicate me. It is the Lord who judges me.
Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God." 1 Cor. 4:4-5
...which I take, at least in this instance, to mean that when we judge we go first to our Lord Jesus to ask for help in judging something/someone and then wait for his answer. His answer, in many cases, comes in that still small voice, 1 Kings 19:12, that gives us insight, although it's through dark glasses, into men's hearts and motivations. So in the exercising of our spirit we learn to trust that still small voice and judge rightly, perhaps making those dark glasses a little clearer.
I guess what I'm getting at is that we are supposed to learn how to judge rightly, like our Lord Jesus would judge. We will make mistakes, of course, but we must endeavor to keep learning because we have a monumental task ahead of us.
"and You have made them a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth." Rev. 5:10
If we are to be kings and priest reigning on the earth in the coming millennium, people will be coming to us with issues and problems and we need to know how to judge rightly. I don't believe we will be judging anyone's ultimate fate, as that, I think, is reserved for our Lord Jesus, but, to guide those living in the ways that they should go. It is a very serious part of our training and should be approached with humility. Consider what Jehoshaphat told the judges he appointed:
“Consider carefully what you do, for you are not judging for man, but for the LORD, who is with you when you render judgment. And now, may the fear of the LORD be upon you. Be careful what you do, for with the LORD our God there is no injustice, partiality, or bribery.” 2 Chronicles 19:6-7
I mean no disrespect to you, kjs . I felt it was something that needed some light shone on it.
Will disagree with you here -- because based on your examples -- when we are required to do "the judging" we will be in our Spiritual Bodies (and therefore without Fallen Nature).
That is the key difference as far as I can see ....
Currently we are still "Flesh" and as a result are up for corruption (or possible corruption)
When we are in our new bodies --- we will as Paul proclaims -- see every thing Clearly (not looking through glass darkly) [1 Corinthians 13:12] -- so it makes sense that we will be judging.
As with your opening verse Luke 6:37
"Judge not, and you will not be judged;" --- this makes sense to -- while we are in the flesh -- it is extremely foolish for ANYONE (myself included) to JUDGE the someone's actions and use that to claim they are or are not SAVED.
Now one might point out their actions appear to be "WRONG" in a particular way (and that done privately between individuals) -- simply as raising a concern.
But do not think it wise to judge........
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Post by stormyknight on Feb 7, 2019 16:15:25 GMT -6
I most definitely agree with you on judging whether someone is saved or not, it's not our place. I guess since I pulled your quote from that thread where you all were discussing the parameters of being saved or not, I may have implied that we could do that. No, I believe judging whether someone is saved or not is up to our Savior. But, I do believe we can, and do, detect others' sincerity/insincerity by learning to judge rightly. We judge all the time. Whether we ask Jesus for help each time makes all the difference. Maybe some things seem trivial to judge, but other things, like whether or not our child lying to us or not, or how to judge what to do about such an issue, is very important. We need His guidance for such judgement, because we are making critical decisions. There are a myriad of things that we make judgement calls on that we need His help with. I think the problem that arises is that the verse implies that we should not judge others, which is correct. Part of loving our neighbor. We wouldn't want to be judged(by others) so we should not judge others. But judging, in and of itself, is something we need to learn to do rightly/righteously. And when we ask our Lord Jesus Christ to help with our decisions, we become wiser. As I stated previously, we will make mistakes, because we are still in the flesh, but we can learn to be better than we were. Just like we learn in other areas of being a better Christian. I don't think that once we are in our new bodies that we will automatically know how to judge righteously.
I'm sorry if I misrepresented my thoughts and led you to think that I believe we should judge others.
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Post by stormyknight on Feb 12, 2019 13:06:01 GMT -6
Been thinking about this still...Here is the whole verse/thought.
"Do not judge, or you will be judged. For with the same judgment you pronounce, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but fail to notice the beam in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ while there is still a beam in your own eye? You hypocrite! First take the beam out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
Do not give dogs what is holy; do not throw your pearls before swine. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces." Matt. 7:1-6
What this tells me is that, no, we should not judge others. If we do, we will be judged by the same parameters that we use to judge someone. I think the key here is don't be hypocritical. Judge ourselves first, if we are spotless then we are able to judge others. But we are not spotless, except through Jesus Christ. How are we to know what is holy? Or who is a dog? I know in the context of Jesus' mission, while a man, was to bring the gospel to the children of Israel, and Gentiles were considered "dogs". In my mind, now that we are in the age of grace, believers are the children and unbelievers are the dogs. So how do we know who is a dog? How do we know someone isn't a true believer even though they profess to be a christian? We judge them by their fruits. What they do. What they say. (hand/forehead) How else will we know to not throw our pearls(of wisdom) before swine.
"Wisdom will save you from evil people, from those whose words are twisted." Proverbs 2:12
So, I believe, we must learn to judge...righteously, by the power of the Holy Spirit and through Jesus Christ, our Redeemer.
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Post by sog on Feb 13, 2019 17:19:37 GMT -6
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Post by boraddict on Feb 13, 2019 19:37:46 GMT -6
My friend that is 70 years old adopts people. She adopted me approximately 10 or 15 years ago and occasionally I meet a new face. Her husband Richard told me that when his wife adopts someone then he has to as well; they are a close nit team. He is worth millions and she is always remodeling houses to stay busy. She fixes the homes just the way she wants for herself to live in the home and then has no room for profit. Then she miraculously sells the houses for enough to not go in the hole.
Her last house was in a neighborhood with home values at $150,000 and she had $340,000 into the house including the original purchase price. She sold the house for $340,000. That is so funny. I told her that she always comes out okay. Didn't make any money but did not loose money either; only her lost wages for her part of work and she was there every day for 3 months. Now she is spending $3,000 on her daughters floor and in our conversation she said the daughter that is 45 years old and a school teacher has no money to fix the floor. To which I replayed "didn't you tell me her house was paid off therefore your daughter has money." But that never is the point. Two years ago my friend financed one of her adoptees to purchase a home and now he has, because of the increase in value, $100,000 equity or something like that. Today she told me that another friend, an adoptee, was purchasing a home. I know the story without asking the details. She is again financing a home for an adoptee.
So here is the interesting thing. My friend believes in fairies. As incredible as that sounds, she believes in that mystical creature. Her daughter is an atheist. I am telling you that because these people are absolutely beautiful people. Yet, while I was considering the dividing line between great and honorable people and those having salvation I couldn't help but wonder what divides some to salvation and some not. The only answer is that they hold different beliefs.
She being so good is completely lost, and it is her choice. Yet at 70 years old she does not know that she is lost. She is happy and living a full life of love and devotion with no concern for salvation; because, she does not believe in such a thing. Yet, she has unwittingly overlooked the most important thing. For with out a belief in Christ she has no salvation; being deceived by Satan.
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Post by stormyknight on Feb 13, 2019 23:06:36 GMT -6
thank you for that sog. That sermon puts into words what my clumsy effort cannot. I think it all distills down to love. Even when we come up against those who would use the scriptures against us, by learning how to judge by Jesus' lead, we learn when to rebuke and when to hold our tongue. I learned this with my oldest daughter. Smart as a whip and headstrong. I used to preach like an angry dad, but I've learned to just love her unconditionally. I know she's tripped through life, but she has a beautiful heart. She says she doesn't believe. Is she condemned? Well, I suppose for the time being she's not under grace except maybe through her mother and I, if that counts for anything. But I know... I believe, that she will one day stand before Jesus Christ and He will show her more love than I ever could and she will see the difference of what her choice will produce from that moment forward. And as smart and good hearted as she is, she will choose Jesus. Who wouldn't? Isn't that the whole point of the Great White Throne judgement? For God to show the rest of humanity that did not know Him what's in store if they do? or don't? God is the ultimate judge. But we have to know the heart of people so we can show them love, whether its in words or actions,"a time to speak and a time to stay silent". Do we tell them about Jesus or just live as Jesus commands, in their presence, and wait for the Father to guide them to His Son? It depends on what we discern from their fruits. I think sometimes there is even the time to remove oneself from a person's presence.
"But understand this: In the last days terrible times will come. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, without love of good, traitorous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. Turn away from such as these!" 2 Tim. 3:1-5
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Post by stormyknight on Feb 14, 2019 8:27:05 GMT -6
I didn't finish my thoughts last night. My wife woke up ill so I needed to help her. It was late, so I just went to bed after. boraddict , what can we do but pray for people like your friend, and hope our Heavenly Father will spark a thought in their mind to look toward Jesus. It happened to each of us in one way or another when we were in their shoes. Love is the answer. Love in judgement, love in expression, love in defending our hope. "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a ringing gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and exult in the surrender of my body,a but have not love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no account of wrongs. Love takes no pleasure in evil, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be restrained; where there is knowledge, it will be dismissed. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial passes away.
When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I set aside childish ways. Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love; but the greatest of these is love." 1 Cor. 13:1-13 |
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