|
|
Post by mike on Feb 27, 2019 14:53:19 GMT -6
I came across this text this morning in my daily reading and was reminded of the topic discussed in this thread
Verse 7-8 is talking about Solomon (not David) and notice the stipulation the Lord gives here (to David about Solomon). Side note - There's that 'forever' terminology talking about the land again.
Verse 9 is the eye-opener and key to me;
1. Serve Him willingly - not out of obligation or compulsion, but in the right heart, spirit and thoughts. Not with works, but from the heart and mind (faith)
2. He already knows your intentions and thoughts (so why would one try to hide their evil imaginations or good intentions)
3. seek and you will find (sound familiar), forsake him and he will cast you off forever - hmmm
|
|
|
|
Post by uscgvet on Feb 28, 2019 11:38:36 GMT -6
"but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever."
Doesn't sound like once saved always saved to me. Where is the seal of the Holy Spirit?
This reads like the 4 Gospels and Hebrews - Revelation where you can lose your salvation.
|
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Feb 28, 2019 11:59:36 GMT -6
I have a question on something in 2 Peter. In chapter 3 Peter says, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given to him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters" (vs 15 and 16) If I understand "right dividing" correctly, Peter and Paul have separate audiences. If Peter is to the Jews and Paul is only to the church, why would Paul have written to Peter's people?
Unless I am not understanding correctly.
|
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Feb 28, 2019 12:38:14 GMT -6
I've been reading and now I've got more questions about Peter's letters.  Upon further looking at them, it sounds like Peter is writing to Christians who are probably mostly Gentile. 1 Peter 2:9-10 and 4:3-4 for example, and his second letter says "This is now my second letter that I am writing to you, beloved." (3:1) So same audience. So, "right dividers" say that these letters are meant for tribulation believers? I don't see anything in Peter's letters that seem to say a person needs faith plus works for salvation. (Unless you misunderstand what he says in 3:21 about baptism). In contrast, I see in 1:3-5 that believers are being kept by God's power through faith until Jesus appears. Wiersbe in his commentary says, "The word translated 'kept' is a military word that means 'guarded, shielded.' The tense of the verb reveals that we are constantly being guarded by God, assuring us that we shall safely arrive in heaven." Once saved always saved. If trib saints could loose their salvation, then surely 1 Peter wasn't written for them.
My understanding is that Peter was writing to the church before persecution under Nero began. This letter would have been a great encouragement to them. I am sure it is great encouragement to persecuted believers today and will be well read during the Tribulation. However, I don't believe that it can be said that it is only for that time period.
|
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Feb 28, 2019 12:46:02 GMT -6
mike - the casting off forever part...could it be that it meant removal from the throne? I've been reading large chunks of the OT and Judges, Kings, and Chronicles all tend to blur together, but wasn't part of the reason God sent Israel into captivity (cast them off) was because they forsook Him? Weren't some of the rulers killed or died by other means because they had forsaken Him? I'll see if I can find some verses for support. Like I said, it's all blurring together. So many strange Hebrew names and frequent changes in who is ruling.
ETA: I am not sure how to go about finding what I am looking for but here is part of Solomon's prayer in 2 Chron 6:16 "Now therefore, O LORD, God of Israel, keep for your servant David my father what you have promised him, saying, 'You shall not lack a man to sit before me on the throne of Israel, if only your sons pay close attention to their way, to walk in my law as you have walked before me.'" It did finally come to a point where God sent them to Babylon and there were no more Davidic kings (until Jesus). Chron 36:15-16 "The LORD, the God of their fathers, sent persistently to them by His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place. But they kept mocking the messengers of God, despising His words and scoffing His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD rose against His people until their was no remedy." And so he sent the Chaldeans to destroy Jerusalem and sent Judah into exile. He had cast them off.
|
|
|
|
Post by mike on Feb 28, 2019 13:01:52 GMT -6
"but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever." Doesn't sound like once saved always saved to me. Where is the seal of the Holy Spirit? This reads like the 4 Gospels and Hebrews - Revelation where you can lose your salvation. So the Israelites were intimately aware of all that the Lord had done for them over many many years. We see this throughout the OT where He would use their enemies as instruments of punishment and chastening and they would repent due to chastening. The Lord would in turn save them from their enemies and bless them corporately. David is reminding his son (Solomon) of this pattern of history advising him to follow in the same manner he (David) did so that Solomons kingdom would be established forever. These kings who did not follow the ways of the Lord were cut off from ruling Gods people forever. AND from the Israelites to live their lives with the surrounding tribes and their false gods forever. Much like what Paul says about giving them over to reprobate minds the Lord through David was reminding Solomon to continuously follow the Lord teaching his offspring to do so as well. Not a rejection of eternal damnation, but of his (Solomons) authority and kingdom. I believe you are conflating these concepts Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. |
|
|
|
Post by uscgvet on Feb 28, 2019 13:22:17 GMT -6
2 Peter 2:
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Yep... That pretty much sums it up for me.
2 Peter 2 is absolutely stating here that you can lose your salvation after you "escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ"
The result of "not known the way of righteousness" is hell.
What's worse than hell for those who first "escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" and then "after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."? Deeper Hell?
|
|
|
|
Post by uscgvet on Feb 28, 2019 13:50:14 GMT -6
"but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever." Doesn't sound like once saved always saved to me. Where is the seal of the Holy Spirit? This reads like the 4 Gospels and Hebrews - Revelation where you can lose your salvation. So the Israelites were intimately aware of all that the Lord had done for them over many many years. We see this throughout the OT where He would use their enemies as instruments of punishment and chastening and they would repent due to chastening. The Lord would in turn save them from their enemies and bless them corporately. David is reminding his son (Solomon) of this pattern of history advising him to follow in the same manner he (David) did so that Solomons kingdom would be established forever. These kings who did not follow the ways of the Lord were cut off from ruling Gods people forever. AND from the Israelites to live their lives with the surrounding tribes and their false gods forever. Much like what Paul says about giving them over to reprobate minds the Lord through David was reminding Solomon to continuously follow the Lord teaching his offspring to do so as well. Not a rejection of eternal damnation, but of his (Solomons) authority and kingdom. I believe you are conflating these concepts Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.So your saying the people described in the bottom half of Romans 1 are not going to be judged resulting in eternal damnation? Romans 1:18 is going to be the result of those described in the bottom half of Romans 1. And Paul continues the bottom half of Romans 1 into the 2nd chapter giving a very nice detail of what's coming to them in Chapter 1. I'm just going to have to disagree with your Romans analysis. Bottom half of Romans 1 people are in serious trouble! I wonder what happened to Korah and his household.... Sounds to me like he was cast off. Question is, which side of Hades did he and his family end up? |
|
|
|
Post by mike on Feb 28, 2019 13:55:34 GMT -6
Vet - I think of it this way. Salvation & Discipleship.
I know in my heart that I believed on the blood of Christ for my salvation in 1994. From that moment I decided to change my mind about eternity and believe on Him. In my belief I came to realize that His ways are not my ways and His ways were superior. I began to change my mind about how I lived and approached aspects of life. Fast forward to roughly 2002-5 and I slowly but surely allowed the leaven of sin to permeate my lifestyle, rejecting His ways and choosing my own. Was I worse off walking in my own ways?
He allowed me to do so by giving me over to my desires for my own destruction. Fortunately His Mercy is extremely greater than I can imagine. Though He allowed me to suffer great pains, ultimately He chose to cause me to see clearly again a couple years ago.
Was I saved the entire time? Yes. Was I following and worse off? Not following and yes in bad shape mentally, emotionally, spiritually
|
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Feb 28, 2019 13:57:58 GMT -6
2 Peter 2: 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. Yep... That pretty much sums it up for me. 2 Peter 2 is absolutely stating here that you can lose your salvation after you "escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" The result of "not known the way of righteousness" is hell. What's worse than hell for those who first "escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" and then "after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."? Deeper Hell? who is Peter talking about in chapter 2? The whole chapter is about false teachers. He is not talking about believers who have lost their salvation. He's talking about teachers who have the knowledge, they know the truth, yet it is not faith. (Isn't that rampant today??) The knowledge never changed them. They are not born again. They have destructive heresies, deny Christ, greedy, exploiting believers, trying to gain people to follow them. They promise freedom but it's a lie. They may have temporarily escaped the defilement of the world by living like a Christian, but it didn't last. They went back to their true nature. |
|
|
|
Post by uscgvet on Feb 28, 2019 14:01:32 GMT -6
Sooo, teachers cannot first be believers?
And what did they escape in 2 Peter 2:20 if they weren't first believers to begin with?
Do non-believers escape? No, they are bound for hell. No escape there.
|
|
|
|
Post by mike on Feb 28, 2019 14:03:24 GMT -6
No that wasn't my point, sorry for not being clear.
Those described in Romans 1/2 if they aren't trusting in His atonement, they will be cast off. They will be on the wrong side of Hades, yes.
What I am saying is that we continue to dialogue over the same points in that we can't do enough "good" to earn status with God. Can't walk perfectly enough to "stay saved".
I mess up every single day. I sin and don't even know it. God looks at your heart brother not the deeds you do or don't do. You can't measure the deeds to be adequate save One.
The hearts of those in Romans 1/2 and realistically throughout history - that's the issue. Hearts of men are depraved, BUT GOD!!
Our hearts and our desire come before His, He eventually turns us over to them if we persist. And I see that in the 1 Christmas 28 verses from David to Solomon as well as Paul, Peter, James and the Lord Himself urging us to turn to Him and away from self, which is Anti-Christ
|
|
|
|
Post by mike on Feb 28, 2019 14:20:22 GMT -6
Sooo, teachers cannot first be believers? And what did they escape in 2 Peter 2:20 if they weren't first believers to begin with? Do non-believers escape? No, they are bound for hell. No escape there. Great question! Are false teachers believers? Were they once believers and enticed away from faith by their own desires? I dont get to judge that, but I would heed that warning for sure |
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Feb 28, 2019 14:26:58 GMT -6
Sooo, teachers cannot first be believers? And what did they escape in 2 Peter 2:20 if they weren't first believers to begin with? Do non-believers escape? No, they are bound for hell. No escape there. Peter starts off calling them false teachers in 2:1. They weren't believers. They deny Christ.
Couldn't a non-believer live a "moral" life and therefore escape some defilement from the world? Especially if that non-believer was a false teacher who wanted to appeal to believers in order to entice them into error? Think of false teachers today. Their lives may not look much different than a true teacher. They aren't being defiled by the world, but it's only on the surface. Like white washed tombs...no defilement on the outside, but corrupt within.
But it is so much worse for them because they know the truth and will become entangled in corruption. Their true nature will prevail.
|
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Feb 28, 2019 14:30:19 GMT -6
from Wiersbe -- "Peter would never have compared them to swine and dogs had they once been members of the Lord's true flock, nor would he have called them 'cursed children' (2 Peter 2:14). If they were true believers who had gone astray, it would have been Peter's responsibility to encourage his readers to rescue these backsliders, but Peter did not command them to do so. Instead, he condemned the apostates in some of the most forceful language found in the New Testament!"
Wiersbe also states "It is a startling fact that there are many people in our churches who have never truly been born again, but who are convinced that they are saved and going to heaven! They have had an "experience," and perhaps look better (like the sow) and feel better (likek the dog), but they have not been made betters as "partakers of the divine nature."
|
|
Upon further looking at them, it sounds like Peter is writing to Christians who are probably mostly Gentile. 1 Peter 2:9-10 and 4:3-4 for example, and his second letter says "This is now my second letter that I am writing to you, beloved." (3:1) So same audience.