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Post by socalexile on Jan 22, 2019 23:24:45 GMT -6
Where is Hell mentioned in that chapter? You have to presuppose it. The last bit might be about believers, but again, you have to presuppose that he's talking about hell and not chastizement. Ok, then that is how you meander around it. 2 Peter 2 (KJV): 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. Those who have "escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" are Christians? Yes? Those who "have known the way of righteousness" are also Christians? Yes? What happens to those who do not know "the way of righteousness"? Let me guess, they go to Heaven right? Salvation without knowing "the way of righteousness"... I mean lets just forget about the paragraphs above those three verses too shall we... What other purpose is there to "known the way of righteousness" than that to lead one to Salvation? What did you just "escape" from in 2 Peter 2:20? chastisement? Really? I think Venge is absolutely right with Luke 12:47, but I think that the whole passage in Luke 12 should be looked at with 2 Peter 2 referring to that servant that thought the Lord would delay his return. "His portion was appointed with the unbelievers." as Luke 12 continued... That's not "chastisement". But where is "hell" or "eternal damnation" or even "eternity" mentioned? It's not. Yet if they knew the way of righteousness (Christ), then the Holy Spirit seals them as a guarantee (Ephesians 1:13-14). So let's say that takes salvation off the table. What does that leave then? Read Hebrews 12: 3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: “My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; 6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives.” 7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. What Peter is saying, in the last part of 2 Peter 2, is that it is worse for a Christian, who has the Holy Spirit, to go back to the things of the world than it was before they knew Christ. That's it. He's not mentioning Hell or damnation. We do know that God does chastise those He loves per Hebrews 12 above. So it is perfectly reasonable, and more consistent with the Gospel, to think that Peter is talking about the spiritual condition of such a Christian who is caught up again in sin, having the Holy Spirit to convict him. |
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Post by socalexile on Jan 22, 2019 23:28:47 GMT -6
Venge, Agree, read it and understand it exactly as it is written. I see 2 Peter 2 as an absolute, hell bound, serious threat to those saved in Christ who fall back. I don't see any other way to understand it. It says exactly what it means. This makes the seal of the Holy Spirit questionable in the Church Age. Once Saved Always Saved? I may cause some to..hmm to turn but I’ll say this. I think you can lose your salvation. It belongs to those that have faith. If you stop believing, you don’t have faith ergo you revert back to as a lost soul. Did not Christ, the alpha and omega say in Rev he that holds the keys to hell and death, that he can remove ur name from the book? Or he can remove your crown? Yes. Is it a fact that when God says something he means it and it shall be done? Yes. Yes, we can lose it all if we choose to follow other Gods over our God. There is nothing worse then following the god of our bellies So God declared you righteous by faith, seals you with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, then punishes you anyway? Also, compare John 3:14 and the reference to Numbers 21:6-9 as Christ's example of salvation through Him. Did the Hebrews only live after being bitten as long as they kept staring at the pole? No. There, the serpents = sin, Christ on the cross is the pole (who became sin for us), and they only had to look once. |
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Post by socalexile on Jan 22, 2019 23:33:07 GMT -6
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Post by venge on Jan 23, 2019 8:49:01 GMT -6
Darn it Gary
I was gonna respond about James but you stole my thunder.
Anyway UsVet, there are too many verses that prove we are saved by grace thru faith alone. Faith without works is like my sister which I’m sad to say. My sister says she has faith. She goes to church, she was born again very young and scripturally baptized after her salvation.
My sister doesn’t study the Bible. She doesn’t have fruit. Didn’t Christ say every tree without fruit would be hewn down?
She has not repented in a way that she has made changes in her life. Now only God knows her heart, but I know my sister well.
If she doesn’t change, if she has no fruit and she’s living like the world...how great is her faith? God said if you love me do my commandments. Yet I see her with constant anger, not love.
What if my coworkers whose trees resemble fruitless pine full of disease it’s bark rotting away. But some say they are Christians.
If they have faith, I’d see it somewhere. There is no light, no torch, no lantern.
All we can do is pray and talk to them about these things and live a life pleasing to God.
Even the 5 of the 10 virgin parable shows they knew Christ. They’d say they have faith. But Christ said I never knew you. Why? Because he said depart from me ye who work iniquity. Their faith was second to the world. They still lived in sin and the world even though they had faith, weak faith and no fruit to show for it.
Remember it is said, saved by grace thru faith. Not by works lest any man should boast. Or Romans 10:9-10 or John 3:16 or Acts 16:31. There are so many!
You see all these commercials: Free free free. The kid at the spelling bee....F. R. E. E....Free! Well, this is free too. I think human beings find it hard to accept. Even my flesh ears with me on many things. There is nothing you can do to enter that’s why works don’t get you saved, but works have a place. We are called to be zealous of good works.
Live on faith. But do works because of your faith, not because you need to. Because you want to. Sanctification is a type of work. Feeding the brothern is a work. Caring for the needy is a work. Evangelizing is a work. I do them not as chores. I do them because the Lord wants me to and I enjoy it. My heart joys in it. I praise my father for it. To be more Christ like. I sin and it kills me. By Christ tells me not to give up.
Sorry for rambling
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Post by fitz on Jan 23, 2019 9:06:35 GMT -6
I agree with Gary. There are genuine believers who have received the Holy Spirit as a deposit and guarantee. And then there are those that claim to be "Christian", but have only given mental ascent to the historical Jesus and there has been no conversion and no deposit.
I also believe strongly that Justification, Sanctification and our ultimate Glorification is all a work of God. He is the author and finisher of our faith...
Hebrews 12:2 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
2 looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
He promises to finish this thing He started in us...
Philippians 1:6 [Full Chapter]
being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
So, can God fail? Can someone who has been born again be unborn? Does God, after making a deposit within us then simply make a withdrawal?
I think not. If there was genuine faith to believe, then the Holy Spirit is given, and God keeps us by His power to the end, works or no works. In eternity, this will translate to crowns or no crowns, rewards or no rewards.
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Post by venge on Jan 23, 2019 16:05:27 GMT -6
I may cause some to..hmm to turn but I’ll say this. I think you can lose your salvation. It belongs to those that have faith. If you stop believing, you don’t have faith ergo you revert back to as a lost soul. Did not Christ, the alpha and omega say in Rev he that holds the keys to hell and death, that he can remove ur name from the book? Or he can remove your crown? Yes. Is it a fact that when God says something he means it and it shall be done? Yes. Yes, we can lose it all if we choose to follow other Gods over our God. There is nothing worse then following the god of our bellies So God declared you righteous by faith, seals you with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, then punishes you anyway? Also, compare John 3:14 and the reference to Numbers 21:6-9 as Christ's example of salvation through Him. Did the Hebrews only live after being bitten as long as they kept staring at the pole? No. There, the serpents = sin, Christ on the cross is the pole (who became sin for us), and they only had to look once. No, God does not push us away. People make their own minds up. They choose their path. They can know the truth and love it and later on push it away because they give into the flesh. When they knew the truth and enjoyed it did they not have faith? |
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Post by socalexile on Jan 23, 2019 23:13:53 GMT -6
Even the 5 of the 10 virgin parable shows they knew Christ. They’d say they have faith. But Christ said I never knew you. Why? Because he said depart from me ye who work iniquity. Their faith was second to the world. They still lived in sin and the world even though they had faith, weak faith and no fruit to show for it. Sorry for rambling Your mixing verses up and as a result, mixing up contexts. Re-read Matthew 7:21-23. They will boast of "many powerful works", so they will have fruit which they will try to wave in front of Christ, what they won't have is Christ's righteousness, given by faith. And the Parable of the Ten Virgins is rooted in the Song of Solomon (ch. 3&5). And lamps are used as a metaphor for the Holy Spirit in other passages, which is given by faith (Ephesians 1:13-14), not works (see above). |
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Post by socalexile on Jan 23, 2019 23:20:03 GMT -6
So God declared you righteous by faith, seals you with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, then punishes you anyway? Also, compare John 3:14 and the reference to Numbers 21:6-9 as Christ's example of salvation through Him. Did the Hebrews only live after being bitten as long as they kept staring at the pole? No. There, the serpents = sin, Christ on the cross is the pole (who became sin for us), and they only had to look once. No, God does not push us away. People make their own minds up. They choose their path. They can know the truth and love it and later on push it away because they give into the flesh. When they knew the truth and enjoyed it did they not have faith? John 10:28 - 28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand." "No one" includes you. If salvation is not by works, then not only do you not get it by work, you also don't keep it with work. Period.  |
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Post by venge on Jan 24, 2019 5:43:52 GMT -6
Even the 5 of the 10 virgin parable shows they knew Christ. They’d say they have faith. But Christ said I never knew you. Why? Because he said depart from me ye who work iniquity. Their faith was second to the world. They still lived in sin and the world even though they had faith, weak faith and no fruit to show for it. Sorry for rambling Your mixing verses up and as a result, mixing up contexts. Re-read Matthew 7:21-23. They will boast of "many powerful works", so they will have fruit which they will try to wave in front of Christ, what they won't have is Christ's righteousness, given by faith. And the Parable of the Ten Virgins is rooted in the Song of Solomon (ch. 3&5). And lamps are used as a metaphor for the Holy Spirit in other passages, which is given by faith (Ephesians 1:13-14), not works (see above). socal, In regards to Matthew 7, you are correct saying they talk of their works even boasting of them. I’m referring to after that verse. Depart from me ye who work iniquity, that is sin. Some take lamps as the HS, I take it as Christ alone. Either way, I’m not understanding your rebuttal or statement regarding the 10 virgins. I don’t want to go off subject. Post it here or send me a PM. Both show iniquity is involved. Perhaps they were unrepentant, or perhaps their souls still lusted. Whatever it was, it was sin and they didn’t let go of it. Reading your posts, do you think i said works matter? As your posts seem to be suggesting such. I have said works do not matter. I did say James says that he will show you his faith by his works. I think perhaps you misunderstood me. |
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Post by socalexile on Jan 24, 2019 8:30:34 GMT -6
Your mixing verses up and as a result, mixing up contexts. Re-read Matthew 7:21-23. They will boast of "many powerful works", so they will have fruit which they will try to wave in front of Christ, what they won't have is Christ's righteousness, given by faith. And the Parable of the Ten Virgins is rooted in the Song of Solomon (ch. 3&5). And lamps are used as a metaphor for the Holy Spirit in other passages, which is given by faith (Ephesians 1:13-14), not works (see above). socal, In regards to Matthew 7, you are correct saying they talk of their works even boasting of them. I’m referring to after that verse. Depart from me ye who work iniquity, that is sin. Some take lamps as the HS, I take it as Christ alone. Either way, I’m not understanding your rebuttal or statement regarding the 10 virgins. I don’t want to go off subject. Post it here or send me a PM. Both show iniquity is involved. Perhaps they were unrepentant, or perhaps their souls still lusted. Whatever it was, it was sin and they didn’t let go of it. Reading your posts, do you think i said works matter? As your posts seem to be suggesting such. I have said works do not matter. I did say James says that he will show you his faith by his works. I think perhaps you misunderstood me. You're reading the bolded part into the Bible. BTW, stopping those are works, and if doing those means you lose your salvation, then it's still by works. We're all sinners, and the Bible says the only real solution is faith in Christ, which God then credits us as righteous (Romans 4). So do the math: if works won't work with Christ, and they are still lawless, then works don't get you into heaven. Conversely, if righteousness is by faith alone according to Romans 4:2-8, then it stands to reason that they were credited as lawless because they didn't believe. Salvation is a free gift received by faith. You're trying to reason from a perspective that it is by what you do, and what you must accomplish, and that's why you come to these conclusions apart from what the Bible actually says. 1:18 Because, the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who perish, but to us who are saved it is the power of God. 1:19 Because it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent." 1:20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 1:21 Because since, in the wisdom of God, the world by wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe. 1:22 Because, Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 1:24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 1:25 Because, the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 1:26 Because, you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 1:27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 1:28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, yes and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 1:29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. |
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Post by cwood85 on Jan 24, 2019 10:45:40 GMT -6
Can I ask a few questions? Hopefully this isn’t taken the wrong way and I convey my thoughts correctly (Lord help me out here) and do not cause an uproar or anything. My statement is deep and it would be wise to pray on it, meditate and read scripture about it.
It seems to me at least that the purpose of salvation in modern Christianity is basically to avoid hell. That the main purpose of being a Christian is to not go to Hell. You believe Christ died for your sins and now you have an escape route out of Hell, whether you think it is an eternal torment or annihilation. For the record I believe in neither.
Is this why we decide to believe? The purpose of salvation is so we don’t get roasted or blown to dust for eternity? Our existence is based on an eternity of either being in constant agony or dust if we do not make the right choice? I mean we are so good at making the correct or important choice (cough cough Adam and Eve...) that we would be given the choice again in a similar context? Adam and even got “do not do this or you will surely die”, but now we have “do not disbelieve or you will be tortured or blown to bits.”
In the OT, the Israelites practiced the law to what purpose? Forgiveness of sins or to avoid hell? But not one of them did it perfectly ever over thousands of years, which was required for the law to complete its purpose. So are the millions who practiced the law damned in some way? It had to be perfectly fulfilled for it to work. Only one man did that. Christ, and he fulfilled the law. Not one single person was ever truly forgiven because they could not fulfill the law until Christ came. Since He fulfilled the law therefore completing it, these verses impact are severely misunderstood:
“Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress. Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.”
What do we think of verses like this in regards to salvation and RD:
“For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.” 1 Timothy 4:10
“Jesus replied, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.”
“so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.”
“For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive ”
Have you really ever sat and thought about these verses? There are many many more that I could list in similar context. How does one rightly divide these? I am not being coy or snarky at all. Who does the saving? Us? Are we still being saved? Was it finished at the cross or was it kinda finished and requires more action on our end for its completion? Or is it God that fully completed salvation at the cross, and the gospel (the good news, not the escape route or ticket from damnation) is to share that completion with everyone?
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Post by Gary on Jan 25, 2019 10:19:21 GMT -6
Good thoughts and questions, cwood85 . There was a time when I was toying a lot with Universal Reconciliation (UR - NOT universalism - big difference). I absorbed a ton of the material from Tentmaker and was allured by it, but eventually I came across three red flags: 1. The first thing that started convicting my spirit is that the fruit seemed to be superficially good, but the more I dug, I found lawlessness and disregard for the literal truth of Scripture. The majority of its proponents seem bent on allegorizing whatever doesn't fit and that extends to embracing sin as a-ok with God. Lawlessness and disregard for the plain truth of the word—not good. I was torn, but still considering it. 2. The verses used by UR proponents have already been dealt with heavily in historic Christianity. For example, 1 Timothy 4:10. First of all, it does make a distinction within the verse itself between believers and unbelievers ("especially" - in other words, He is especially the Savior of believers because they've accepted Him as Savior). Secondly, the verse in and of itself does not define "all". Does it mean that Jesus will effectively save every person who ever lived? Or does it mean His atonement is effectively unlimited in that He literally died for the sins of every person and thus is the only Savior available to every person? This second option would be the position the Church has taken for most of its history and probably the one I favor. Jesus is the Savior of all, but not all will have Him as Savior, hence John 3:18: A third option, favored by Calvinism: Does "all" mean that Jesus' atonement is available to all people, but atonement itself only occurs for those who believe? 3. Choosiness with Scripture. In other words, the Tentmaker/UR crowd has a few dozen favorite verses (1 Tim. 4:10 being #1) that they hold above everything else, yet there is a far greater number of Scriptures that would seem contradictory prima facie. This is a big one to me. I've observed that Christian sects usually revolve around a handful of carefully selected verses, which they exalt above everything else. Their doctrine isn't holistic, but choosy to fit the predefined desire. Examples: RoC - James 2 (at the expense of Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, Hebrews, etc) CoC - Acts 2:38 Bullingerism - Galatians 2:7, 2 Timothy 2:15 JW's - Luke 18:19, Daniel 12:1 Second Baptism - 1 Corinthians 13:1 HRM - Matthew 5:17  I found UR to be similar. When you do a plain inventory of Scripture, two things really jump out: 1. God is dead serious about the finality of judgment, 2. Dying while in rebellion to God and His Messiah is an irrevocable death sentence. When you do a straightforward inventory of all Bible passages that deal with the fate of unbelievers/dying in unforgiven sin, a clear, holistic picture emerges: 310 passages threaten death88 passages threaten fiery destruction6 passages describe an indeterminate period of fiery torment (e.g. Rich man and Lazarus in Hades, but Hades is destroyed in Rev. 20:14) And only 2 passages explicitly describe everlasting torment (and there is reason to believe the Greek term is figurative, based on its source in Isaiah) It's this kind of inventory of Scripture that ultimately convinced me of conditionalism, because it appears to be the overwhelming thrust of Scripture. I wrote about this here: Blessings to you! P.S. We're diverging significantly from the topic, so if need be we can move this to a new thread. Pre-trib scholar Dr. David Reagan has a good video on conditionalism: |
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Post by cwood85 on Jan 25, 2019 15:04:40 GMT -6
Good thoughts and questions, cwood85 . There was a time when I was toying a lot with Universal Reconciliation (UR - NOT universalism - big difference). I absorbed a ton of the material from Tentmaker and was allured by it, but eventually I came across three red flags: 1. The first thing that started convicting my spirit is that the fruit seemed to be superficially good, but the more I dug, I found lawlessness and disregard for the literal truth of Scripture. The majority of its proponents seem bent on allegorizing whatever doesn't fit and that extends to embracing sin as a-ok with God. Lawlessness and disregard for the plain truth of the word—not good. I was torn, but still considering it. 2. The verses used by UR proponents have already been dealt with heavily in historic Christianity. For example, 1 Timothy 4:10. First of all, it does make a distinction within the verse itself between believers and unbelievers ("especially" - in other words, He is especially the Savior of believers because they've accepted Him as Savior). Secondly, the verse in and of itself does not define "all". Does it mean that Jesus will effectively save every person who ever lived? Or does it mean His atonement is effectively unlimited in that He literally died for the sins of every person and thus is the only Savior available to every person? This second option would be the position the Church has taken for most of its history and probably the one I favor. Jesus is the Savior of all, but not all will have Him as Savior, hence John 3:18: A third option, favored by Calvinism: Does "all" mean that Jesus' atonement is available to all people, but atonement itself only occurs for those who believe? 3. Choosiness with Scripture. In other words, the Tentmaker/UR crowd has a few dozen favorite verses (1 Tim. 4:10 being #1) that they hold above everything else, yet there is a far greater number of Scriptures that would seem contradictory prima facie. This is a big one to me. I've observed that Christian sects usually revolve around a handful of carefully selected verses, which they exalt above everything else. Their doctrine isn't holistic, but choosy to fit the predefined desire. Examples: RoC - James 2 (at the expense of Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, Hebrews, etc) CoC - Acts 2:38 Bullingerism - Galatians 2:7, 2 Timothy 2:15 JW's - Luke 18:19, Daniel 12:1 Second Baptism - 1 Corinthians 13:1 HRM - Matthew 5:17 I found UR to be similar. When you do a plain inventory of Scripture, two things really jump out: 1. God is dead serious about the finality of judgment, 2. Dying while in rebellion to God and His Messiah is an irrevocable death sentence. When you do a straightforward inventory of all Bible passages that deal with the fate of unbelievers/dying in unforgiven sin, a clear, holistic picture emerges: 310 passages threaten death <<<Yes but it is important to research the context and meaning of the word death. Not all of the times death is used does it mean literal death and is used allegorically. Paul is a good example of this and how he uses the word death many times, it is referring to a state of being
88 passages threaten fiery destruction <<<Similar to above, it is important to research the type of destruction definition being described. This is where translations from the Hebrew/Greek to English gets messy and muddy because in English we really do not have a singular word easily translated or transliterated meaning the destruction of your well being, livelihood, and similar. When the language and use of word is researched however, this is clarified. 6 passages describe an indeterminate period of fiery torment (e.g. Rich man and Lazarus in Hades, but Hades is destroyed in Rev. 20:14) ^^^But the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus is not talking about a fiery torment. If you are burning and in torment, the last thing you are going to be worried about is getting any sort of relief from water on your tongue. In regards to Rev 20:14 it cannot be used as an indication of any form of fiery torment nor does Hades mean hell, but it means the grave or the realm of the dead. Anyone can look this up in multiple sources and concordances to verify this. The second death is the death of death, you can't have more death after that because it does not exist after that point. Otherwise it would be the death of death of death... those who are thrown into the lake of fire are not referred to as dying or being tormented, that is something that is presupposed and inserted.
"14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
" <<<Those who are thrown in are thrown in after death...
And only 2 passages explicitly describe everlasting torment (and there is reason to believe the Greek term is figurative, based on its source in Isaiah) It's this kind of inventory of Scripture that ultimately convinced me of conditionalism, because it appears to be the overwhelming thrust of Scripture. I wrote about this here: Blessings to you! P.S. We're diverging significantly from the topic, so if need be we can move this to a new thread. Pre-trib scholar Dr. David Reagan has a good video on conditionalism:  |
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Post by Natalie on Jan 25, 2019 18:23:29 GMT -6
It seems to me at least that the purpose of salvation in modern Christianity is basically to avoid hell. That the main purpose of being a Christian is to not go to Hell. You believe Christ died for your sins and now you have an escape route out of Hell, whether you think it is an eternal torment or annihilation. For the record I believe in neither. Is this why we decide to believe? The purpose of salvation is so we don’t get roasted or blown to dust for eternity? Our existence is based on an eternity of either being in constant agony or dust if we do not make the right choice? I mean we are so good at making the correct or important choice (cough cough Adam and Eve...) that we would be given the choice again in a similar context? Adam and even got “do not do this or you will surely die”, but now we have “do not disbelieve or you will be tortured or blown to bits.” Thought I'd comment on part of your post. I have come to believe as Gary does about the end to those who do not believe. They perish. They are gone. If you believe, then you do not die. John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live." And John 3:16. What's that saying? Something about being born twice and dying once, but being born only once you die twice. Anyway, that's not really the part I was going to talk about... I am blessed to go to a church that does not preach the Gospel as an escape from hell. However, I do think that some people might need that. They need to be "scared straight," so to speak. I can sort of see this in my kids. My youngest has loved Jesus since she was tiny. She wants to go be with Him. She wouldn't even have to know anything else. She wants to make choices in her life because of her love for Him. I have a son though that sees that Jesus rescued him from a terrible fate. I could see this being one of the factors, as he matures, that will keep him serving God. He may not be able to put it into as many words, but he's grateful for the love of God that would rescue us. I do think that it would be a tragedy if the Gospel is only preached as a "Get Out of Hell Free" card. I think that there has got to be more to it than that so that lives are changed. I think too many people would just have the attitude that they are fine because Jesus saved them and then totally miss the fellowship with Him and the abundant life in Him that they can have now. |
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Post by Natalie on Jan 25, 2019 19:33:54 GMT -6
More thoughts: When the Jews were in Egypt, God redeemed them as a people for Himself. He was going to actually dwell with them as He had done with Adam and Eve before that relationship was broken by sin. He wanted a relationship with this nation. But how can a holy God dwell with an unclean people? He had to make a way for them to be holy. He gave them rules and a way to still be holy when those rules were broken (because He knew they would be by this imperfect people). He gave them sacrifices as a temporary solution until The Sacrifice would come. It wasn't an escape from hell, but it was a chance for a relationship with their God. I think it's still the same today. He kept the Law and provided the Sacrifice so that we could be holy and dwell with Him, forever. Yes, it is an escape from sin and hell, but I think it's much better to see it as a relationship with our Creator. cwood85 said: So are the millions who practiced the law damned in some way? It had to be perfectly fulfilled for it to work. In thinking about the OT...God didn't just want their obedience and sacrifices. It had to be from a faithful and sincere heart. That's what brought them forgiveness, not the act of sacrifice alone. And when reading through the OT, specifically the first 5 books, we can see what happened to those who rebelled - they were killed, cut off from the nation and the relationship with God. And we can also see blessings being given to those who followed God. And because God stands outside of time, couldn't the Law have been fulfilled even from the beginning? I think that's why He could save those who believed by faith in the OT. They looked to the Sacrifice that was to come, and to God it was already done. |
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