|
|
Post by kjs on Jan 15, 2019 13:29:45 GMT -6
WARNING -- THIS TOPIC IS NOT MILK --- some serious discussion -- not for baby Christians! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Defining the firmament..........
Strong's Concordance 7549. raqia
raqia: an extended surface, expanse
Phonetic Spelling: (raw-kee'-ah)
extended surface, (solid) expanse (as if beaten out)
(flat) expanse (as if of ice) as base, support
the vault of heaven, regarded by Hebrews as solid, and supporting 'waters' above it
visible arch of the sky
expanse -- great extent of something spread out -- an uninterrupted space or area; a wide extent of anything: -- something that is spread out, especially over a relatively large area
I heard one pastor (and I believe he is wrong) -- claim the "firmament" is the Clouds -- since they are the "water vapor" being separated from the water's on earth (ie Lakes, Rivers, Sea....)
If the water vapor (clouds) are the "waters above the firmament" -- how do you get by with the specific instructions / guidance -- that state the Sun, Moon and Stars were placed IN the Firmament?
Meaning IF the clouds are the "TOP" of the Firmament -- and the SUN /Moon / Stars are Above the clouds --- would make them NOT IN the Firmament.
================== This is the first series of questions about the firmament ===========
Please add on -- if you wish --------
I am on a quest to learn what this word really means................
|
|
|
|
Post by fitz on Jan 15, 2019 13:49:17 GMT -6
RE: THE FIRMAMENT...I don't want to derail this because I'm not sure where you want this to go. Just a quick thought...first thing that popped into my head.
It has always been my understanding that the "firmament" broke open at the time of Noah's flood and is no longer intact. Much changed with the earth and our atmosphere (as we can see) after the flood.
I see many have embraced the "Flat Earth Theory" and believe that the firmament is still in place, the moon and sun are (relatively) tiny lights just a short distance up...etc. But the firmament is a huge part of that theory.
I'll reserve my own thoughts on FE...for now.
|
|
|
|
Post by kjs on Jan 15, 2019 14:30:17 GMT -6
RE: THE FIRMAMENT...I don't want to derail this because I'm not sure where you want this to go. Just a quick thought...first thing that popped into my head. It has always been my understanding that the "firmament" broke open at the time of Noah's flood and is no longer intact. Much changed with the earth and our atmosphere (as we can see) after the flood. I see many have embraced the "Flat Earth Theory" and believe that the firmament is still in place, the moon and sun are (relatively) tiny lights just a short distance up...etc. But the firmament is a huge part of that theory. I'll reserve my own thoughts on FE...for now. That is a perfectly valid point -- that it is possible that the "firmament" no longer exists -- because that is "what busted" and caused all the Flooding.....
However, one of the creation organizations (can not recall which one at this point) -- has the theory that Atlantic Trench -- is where the earth split open for the flood.....
So yes, the "flood" may throw a wrench into exactly the firmament is (or was)..........
The direction I was going -- is more along the lines of whether there was or was not a DOME (hard / ice structure) surrounding the earth (and if so -- if it is still there or even partially still there)
Since so far all the definitions point to it being a firm structure -- in other words not atmosphere, not space -- some FIRM -- if you will..........
|
|
|
|
Post by fitz on Jan 15, 2019 16:41:55 GMT -6
Well, I'll add 1 more thing... I think no firmament exists today...certainly not an impenetrable one. In 1984 I lived in Florida. Got to watch a shuttle lift off in person. What an amazing event to see! If you ever saw it on TV, doesn't do it justice. Anyway, It was a perfect day. Not a single cloud in the sky. Nothing but blue. She went up, and up and up and up until she disappeared. She did not bounce off of, or crash into the firmament.  |
|
|
|
Post by kjs on Jan 16, 2019 9:21:22 GMT -6
Well, I'll add 1 more thing... I think no firmament exists today...certainly not an impenetrable one. In 1984 I lived in Florida. Got to watch a shuttle lift off in person. What an amazing event to see! If you ever saw it on TV, doesn't do it justice. Anyway, It was a perfect day. Not a single cloud in the sky. Nothing but blue. She went up, and up and up and up until she disappeared. She did not bounce off of, or crash into the firmament. BUT of course there was no "crash" into it (if it still exists) cause most feel it is way above us. Even the Van Allen belts are said to be in the 30K to 50K range -- yet some of the radiation levels dip down into the 500 mile range. I believe one of the shuttle missions attempted to go 800 miles and had to back down because the instruments (and themselves) were being affected by the radiation.
note: even the International Space Station is roughly only 250 miles above earth
For those that follow the Flat Earth Theory -- I believe most of them feel the firmament is 1k to 5k away.
-- Just trying to show -- that even the "biggest critic" to there being (or that there was) a firmament --- have placed it closer to the 1k mile mark and the space shuttles NEVER went that high.
===========================================
Now back to original topic....... everything points to the meaning of the firmament as -- being well FIRM (solid, beaten out)
Now the Firmament is (or was) the separation of the waters ABOVE and the Waters below...........
with the SKY (or heaven) depending on translation in the "in between" -- I always heard it explained as atmosphere --- but does atmosphere include Space?
For sake of argument -- let us say the firmament is still existing (and it sits 1K miles above)
Would this be a dome (or vault shaped -- Arch) about the earth?
Do we need to make it even larger (or further away) -- after all the Sun / Moon / Stars -- have to be IN..........
Scientist tell us the sun is 93,000,000 miles away........
So do we need to make the firmament greater than 93,000,000 miles?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Now this is NOT a salvation issue -- and I usually treat things like this -- as I simply do not know --- and will need to have it explained to me one day.......
|
|
|
|
Post by uscgvet on Jan 16, 2019 10:42:22 GMT -6
Well, a quick look at all 15 cases of firmament in the Bible: www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=firmament&qs_version=KJVGenesis 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. The firmament in this context seems to just be the separation point of liquid water against everything above liquid water (air and space). In other verses, firmament has other contextual meanings. Psalm 150:1 Praise ye the Lord. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power. This case seems to be defining firmament as God's sanctuary of His power. Likely nothing to do with air and space vs liquid water. |
|
|
|
Post by Joecool on Jan 17, 2019 7:36:01 GMT -6
Could there be different levels of the firmament like there is heavens?
|
|
|
|
Post by fitz on Jan 17, 2019 11:43:48 GMT -6
Then there is the moon, which we landed on 6 times between 1969 and 1972. The moon is an average of 238,856 miles away.
|
|
|
|
Post by kjs on Jan 17, 2019 12:07:13 GMT -6
Could there be different levels of the firmament like there is heavens? Well uscgvet gave us a list of KJV Bible Verses which contain the word (and a spot check does show the same Hebrew word --raqia: an extended surface, expanse
BUT some times it (as far as context goes) says things "open firmament of heaven" -- which seems to imply that there is a portion of the firmament that is OPEN and some solid....
Psalm 150:1 says "Praise ye the Lord. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power." -- huh? the solid expanse of His Power?
Seems to me; the word has many "slippery meanings" --
Ezekiel 1:22 "And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above."
seems to say whatever it is -- it is visible, solid and has a color........
Different Levels to firmament?
I would say no -- Since Genesis 1 (which is the chapter which contains the word more often) --- calls it a "A" or "THE" -- in other words in a singular sense which means there does not appear to multiple firmaments -- just one singular one........
(I know Kent Hovind and a few other creationist authors -- claim there are multiple firmaments -- but the Bible only tells us of singular one....
|
|
|
|
Post by kjs on Jan 17, 2019 12:40:59 GMT -6
Then there is the moon, which we landed on 6 times between 1969 and 1972. The moon is an average of 238,856 miles away. I am falling into the camp of the conspiracy nuts that say -- we never went to the MOON......
This List can really grow -- because there are Many, Many sites saying this very thing .... about never going to the moon.....
BUT IF someone can prove how they got past the Van Allen Radiation Belts -- I might take another look.........
=====================================================================
BUT this is all a side topic and would fit better under the conspiracy theory thread......
The Firmament -- is this topic ------ and right now everything still points to it "being firm" "solid" "something holding up the waters above" .......
|
|
|
|
Post by fitz on Jan 17, 2019 14:24:30 GMT -6
Yep, I don't want to derail this, so carry on! But I have wanted to see a discussion on FE, so I think I'll start one.
|
|
|
|
Post by bondservant on Jan 19, 2019 11:20:51 GMT -6
Well, I'll add 1 more thing... I think no firmament exists today...certainly not an impenetrable one. In 1984 I lived in Florida. Got to watch a shuttle lift off in person. What an amazing event to see! If you ever saw it on TV, doesn't do it justice. Anyway, It was a perfect day. Not a single cloud in the sky. Nothing but blue. She went up, and up and up and up until she disappeared. She did not bounce off of, or crash into the firmament. I was fortunate enough to see the last shuttle launch as it carried the project I spent many years working called Robonaut 2 and yes TV does not do it justice. Here is R2C2:  |
|
|
|
Post by fitz on Jan 19, 2019 16:24:12 GMT -6
Cool picture! My uncle was working at NASA late 60's to late 70's, then was transferred to NORAD. Toward the end of his time at NASA, I think he was working on something to do with the shuttle, but I don't know what it was.
|
|
?
