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Post by stormyknight on Dec 7, 2018 10:09:59 GMT -6
"they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay." Dan. 2:43
I've read through the individual Hebrew words on the Interlinear section of Bible Hub and it comes across to me as: They(those of, belonging to, the fourth Kingdom) will 'mingle' or try to make a connection of sorts, how ever that may be accomplished, with the seed of men, the offspring, biz-ra'. Does that mean the children of men?
The more I think about this, the more bizarre my imaginations become. To take this literally, from the Hebrew, it appears to me to mean that 'they', those who are of this fourth kingdom, which may or may not be human, it doesn't make a distinction, will try to connect themselves, actually adhere, like glued, screwed, nailed, sewn, or what ever, to the children of those people living at this time. Of course they will not accomplish it, as it says iron will not adhere to clay. It just won't work. Some of the translations say that 'they' will intermarry with other families, or like the the NLT says, " to strengthen themselves by forming alliances with each other through intermarriage". but I'm just not buying that because that's not what it says.
Now I haven't really been an advocate of the idea that Artificial Intelligence would be the final beast, but this definitely plays in nicely with that idea. With a lot of people having a cellphone now days, having something that would physically connect us to it, via bluetooth for example, so that Siri or Cortana, or even this Sophia, can try to 'adhere' with our thoughts(forehead) or direct our actions(right hand). Technically, whether children or no, we are all 'the seed of men', so that part of the verse could be anyone. I guess my questions are: Who are 'they'?, who are 'the seed of men', and why do the two not 'cleave one to another'? Usually there is another place in the Bible that will explain something, but I could not find a reference for this.
edit: this may not be the right thread for this. if not please direct me to where it should go.
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Post by kjs on Dec 7, 2018 16:05:06 GMT -6
Check out Chuck Missler's videos
And even adds conjecture about what it could mean such as possibly the Return of the Nephilim.........
Do a Google search on "chuck missler daniel 2 with the seed of men"
and you will have many topics to research............
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Post by mike on Dec 7, 2018 18:57:16 GMT -6
That's great KJ, cuz I read Stormys post and was like "I thought most of Daniel was history past" how in the world do I understand this before the Lord returns  |
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Post by stormyknight on Dec 9, 2018 10:28:16 GMT -6
Thank you, kjs. mike, I hope we are gone before we have need to identify who 'they' are, but Matt 24:24 suggests that we might, indeed, see signs and wonders that will shake our faith. May the Lord Jesus Christ give us incredible strength of faith before that day comes. |
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Post by venge on Dec 10, 2018 19:59:28 GMT -6
"they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay." Dan. 2:43
I've read through the individual Hebrew words on the Interlinear section of Bible Hub and it comes across to me as: They(those of, belonging to, the fourth Kingdom) will 'mingle' or try to make a connection of sorts, how ever that may be accomplished, with the seed of men, the offspring, biz-ra'. Does that mean the children of men?
The more I think about this, the more bizarre my imaginations become. To take this literally, from the Hebrew, it appears to me to mean that 'they', those who are of this fourth kingdom, which may or may not be human, it doesn't make a distinction, will try to connect themselves, actually adhere, like glued, screwed, nailed, sewn, or what ever, to the children of those people living at this time. Of course they will not accomplish it, as it says iron will not adhere to clay. It just won't work. Some of the translations say that 'they' will intermarry with other families, or like the the NLT says, " to strengthen themselves by forming alliances with each other through intermarriage". but I'm just not buying that because that's not what it says.
Now I haven't really been an advocate of the idea that Artificial Intelligence would be the final beast, but this definitely plays in nicely with that idea. With a lot of people having a cellphone now days, having something that would physically connect us to it, via bluetooth for example, so that Siri or Cortana, or even this Sophia, can try to 'adhere' with our thoughts(forehead) or direct our actions(right hand). Technically, whether children or no, we are all 'the seed of men', so that part of the verse could be anyone. I guess my questions are: Who are 'they'?, who are 'the seed of men', and why do the two not 'cleave one to another'? Usually there is another place in the Bible that will explain something, but I could not find a reference for this.
edit: this may not be the right thread for this. if not please direct me to where it should go.
Stormy As you said, the “they” is the 4th kingdom. They of this kingdom are full of diversity. A kingdom of many peoples, tribes, tongues and nations. Much diversity yet people do not cleave one to another. Do people today in NYC, DC or Miami, though all diverse, cleave to each other? Nope! Remember in Genesis when a Man and woman are married, the woman “cleaves” on to her husband and they become one flesh. What happens when people do not cleave one to another. |
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Post by kjs on Dec 14, 2018 13:29:27 GMT -6
I am going to have to go along with Chuck Missler on this one ......
The way this phrase is translated .....
"they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay." Dan. 2:43
the literal translation
they will combine
with one another in the seed
of men;
Whomever -- they are -- they are not 100% Human........ otherwise -- why point out they are combining with human seed?
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Post by kjs on Dec 14, 2018 15:42:50 GMT -6
OK, I admit – I am one of those who can be “sucked into” any plausible conspiracy ……
BECAUSE, quite frankly – my decades on this earth has shown my fellow humans continue to “do right by themselves and their own” – with only a FEW exceptions { like Corrie ten Boom; Brother Andrew; R. C. Sproul; John Nelson Darby} – [feel free to add your own heroes of the faith]……
While it might sound like I am paranoid – there are definitely cases where “They are out to Get you” -- that is the YOU in the generic sense. Even in this Land of the Free (USA) – there are things that are JUST NOT RIGHT – Phrases like “pull yourself up by your own bootstraps” ; “tighten your belt”; "God helps those who help themselves" (sure you can think of many more on your own) – the point being (and in my opinion very wrong) – all of life is about helping oneself and/or family above and beyond all else.
{Interruption here: Please note I am NOT claiming or saying those self-righteous fools that think sitting around all day on their behinds – should guarantee themselves -- shelter and food – just because they are among the living.}
So it is not surprising (at least to me) – that there are some things that are done – simply because someone (or someone’s) are simply trying to ”ONE UP” someone else.
For example the reading of Genesis 6 – make it appear that Satan and His followers – known as the Sons of God – please note that the phrase Son’s of God appears in the book of JOB – as well and no theologian tries to pretend that Satan – who is clearly pointed out in Job – is simply the children of the Seth side and the Cain Side – which is how some try to interpret Genesis 6. Also, note Adam was called Son of God – yet all coming from Adam/Eve are called Sons of Adam.
So it appears – based upon some clues – that Satan (with his followers) are trying to corrupt the “SEED” of Adam/Eve – by intermingling the seed of Fallen Angels… that is what produces the race of the Nephilim…..
Since Jesus himself implies that there will be a Return of the Nephilim – in the end times it behooves us to determine exactly what/who these Nephilim are……
AND determine if it is POSSIBLE these Nephilim are the ones working to corrupt the seed of man again?
SO YES, this is a conspiracy theory floating around out there ….. but I do think this one has the possibility of being a true one…..
Because the general “human” on the streets today – “believes there is no such thing as a free lunch”
And is forever trying to “EARN” their way into God’s favor ……….
When the answer is simply relax and allow God to be God – and that through Jesus – it was all done for us……….
So why am I mentioning all this?
BECAUSE there was a time in the past where the Bible records people were continuing to do evil (that their thoughts were constantly evil) [Genesis 6:5]
I believe that WHEN society as a whole becomes so wrapped up into Self (and Self’s family / possessions) -- is the EVIL being talked about here.
IT could also be the mixing of the human race with the Angel race ---( and might be)
BUT the Pride of Self – was what caused the first Sin … so could it be the sin all suffer from?
Just throwing out some thoughts………..
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Post by mike on Dec 14, 2018 18:45:03 GMT -6
BECAUSE there was a time in the past where the Bible records people were continuing to do evil (that their thoughts were constantly evil) [Genesis 6:5]
I believe that WHEN society as a whole becomes so wrapped up into Self (and Self’s family / possessions) -- is the EVIL being talked about here.
IT could also be the mixing of the human race with the Angel race ---( and might be)
BUT the Pride of Self – was what caused the first Sin … so could it be the sin all suffer from?
Just throwing out some thoughts………..
Couldn't agree more |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Dec 17, 2018 9:10:13 GMT -6
Gonna toss this out there and see where it lands... When Jesus came, what did He do? he preached about the Good News of the Kingdom. And in the account of the Gospels He tells the followers what it means to enter that Kingdom. He had not done the Work on the cross yet. What was the stumbling block of those who opposed Him? Those opposing Him were not submitting to Him as Lord, Lord over their lives. They still operated in their religion of laws and outward appearances that reflected their inner self-exalted heart. Are we not to submit to Him? To allow Him to mold us like a potter molds clay? Let's look at the iron. I did a little search on Hub about iron. The one that stood out the most to me is a reference to Psalm 107:10-11 10Some sat in darkness, in utter darkness,
prisoners suffering in iron chains,
11because they rebelled against God’s commands
and despised the plans of the Most High.
but too, this from Hub: "Iron" is used to illustrated slavery, strength, obstinacy, fortitude, affliction, etc., De 28:48 Job 40:18 Isaiah 48:4 Jeremiah 1:18 Ezekiel 22:18,20 Daniel 2:33. The condition of mankind today is what is represented in these feet of iron and clay. The "iron" are those who stand firm in their hearts that they are king of themselves, elevating themselves of their self-righteous works, living according to the flesh... (nutshell answer) I will quote Paul here: 5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.Going back to clay, we know that at this current timeframe we have the Holy Spirit to lead us, not our flesh..again, Romans 8..the born again sets their minds on things of the Spirit.. Each one who follows Christ has submitted themselves like clay in a potter's hand. HE is the one who molds us, shapes us. When the Kingdom of God takes over this iron/clay kingdom two basic things will happen: the clay pots will break open to reveal the Light within, using a Hub reference, from 2 Cor 4:7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us.
And what about the iron? to refine and "mold" iron it takes extreme heat, in a furnace like a blacksmith molds a rod of iron into a sword or a horse shoe.. Let the Lord lead you on the metaphors associated with those who are unwilling to submit to the Truth of Christ the Lord, compare it with those who burden themselves with religion and works that lead them only to destruction...also read Romans 9 which Paul elaborates on the power and authority of God and His Will... Why this statement in Daniel 2: they will combine with one another in the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, even as iron does not combine with pottery.
Because you can not serve two masters... "No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other.from Gal F or am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.
from 1Thes 2:4..We are not trying to please people but God, who tests our heartsToday the world is littered with the hearts of man in opposition to the will of God (iron) and this cannot mix with those who are walking by the Spirit. This current condition will come to an end beginning with the breaking of the clay, but He will also go to work revealing the Truth to those made of Iron...and that won't be so pretty... |
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Post by kjs on Dec 17, 2018 12:50:08 GMT -6
while it is possible the non-combining could be an heart attitude .......
It is the curious phrase of Daniel 2:
43 Just as you saw iron mixed with clay, so they will mix themselves with human offspring (or seed of men) [ISV]
That really has scholars scratching their heads and coming up with various theories.......
there are at last TWO groups being talked about here -- and only one of them are human
who-ever they are -- they are NOT Human (Chuck Missler - opinion is they are the Fallen Angels - again)
I have to agree --- the various translations always point to at least two groups -- but only one of the groups are human.
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Post by cwood85 on Dec 17, 2018 13:40:26 GMT -6
Maybe this has a lot of scholars scratching their heads because they are overthinking this verse? kjs“there are at last TWO groups being talked about here -- and only one of them are human
who-ever they are -- they are NOT Human (Chuck Missler - opinion is they are the Fallen Angels - again)
I have to agree --- the various translations always point to at least two groups -- but only one of the groups are human.”I think the NIV translates this possibly the best out of a lot of translations. And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.
Is this not what is happening today? Division is worldwide and growing at a rapid rate. I paralleled this verse to several different translations and do not see two separately groups of physical people, I see and understand this to mean people will be against one another, people against governments, people against religions, people against different races or nationalities, against the law, against common sense and what is right. Currently we are seeing a deepening sense of what is wrong is right and what is right is wrong. Also I always wondered about the fallen angel theory and it is mainly because of my ignorance on the subject, but what purpose would it serve for them to return? What says they are not here now and if not why haven’t they returned in the past again? Why all of a sudden? Are they going to be super humans to super terrorize humanity? Just trying to see this topic more clearly. |
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Post by cwood85 on Dec 17, 2018 14:17:54 GMT -6
Also the two prior verses (41-42) explain what the clay and iron is:
41Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. 42As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle.
I stuck with the NIV translation for consistency.
We are this kingdom right right now and it has been growing more and more brittle. But glory to God we see the kingdom that comes next!
44“In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. 45This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands—a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces.
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Post by kjs on Dec 17, 2018 15:15:00 GMT -6
Maybe this has a lot of scholars scratching their heads because they are overthinking this verse? kjs “there are at last TWO groups being talked about here -- and only one of them are human
who-ever they are -- they are NOT Human (Chuck Missler - opinion is they are the Fallen Angels - again)
I have to agree --- the various translations always point to at least two groups -- but only one of the groups are human.”I think the NIV translates this possibly the best out of a lot of translations. And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.
Is this not what is happening today? Division is worldwide and growing at a rapid rate. I paralleled this verse to several different translations and do not see two separately groups of physical people, I see and understand this to mean people will be against one another, people against governments, people against religions, people against different races or nationalities, against the law, against common sense and what is right. Currently we are seeing a deepening sense of what is wrong is right and what is right is wrong. Also I always wondered about the fallen angel theory and it is mainly because of my ignorance on the subject, but what purpose would it serve for them to return? What says they are not here now and if not why haven’t they returned in the past again? Why all of a sudden? Are they going to be super humans to super terrorize humanity? Just trying to see this topic more clearly. But that is just it (NIV is supposed to be a Word for Word - translation) -- however
the actual words come up like this
they will but not of men the with seed
NIV skipped the "seed" word completely and said -- oh they must have meant an mixture of different people --- when the MIXTURE is of the SEED (or genetic makeup -- with one group being human)
In other the "THEY" group is not the same type as the Human Group.....
As far as the Genesis 6 (or Fallen Angel) theory -- they could be still around ---
However, those that share that theory -- also hold there is a pure Human Race (which is savable) and a Hybrid race (which is not savable).....
Kind of depends just how far you wish to go down the rabbit hole .... meaning of course how much credence you put in various theories.......
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Post by cwood85 on Dec 17, 2018 19:28:33 GMT -6
I looked into the word seed in this verse. In all of the OT this is the only time this particular Hebrew word is used the way it is, and it literally only means seed, not offspring or sowing.
The word for seed in Hebrew is ZERA: a sowing, seed, offspring. However when used in other verses, it means: seed, a sowing or offspring, but not in Daniel. It is used in the more broad definition many many times. For example in verses like this-
Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.
The they and men in the Daniel verse is also interesting. The men is pretty self explanatory, and means mankind, all men, and so on. But the THEY means: to become, come to pass, or be.
And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.
Or
In the NASB translation we can read it like this:
And in that you saw the iron mixed with common clay, they (the strong and the weak kingdoms, the iron and the clay) will combine with one another in the seed of men (many nations, all of mankind, worldwide will be part of this Kingdom);but they (the weak and strong Kingdoms) will not adhere to one another, even as iron does not combine with pottery.
Just some info from the previous verses which explain what the clay and the iron are and applying it to the next verse which seems to possibly clear up who the word THEY is referring to.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Dec 17, 2018 21:56:15 GMT -6
I was going to look that up, too, cw, and ya beat me to it. This clay and iron feet is part of statue that we know who the prior kingdoms were. We know that the last kingdom is God's Kingdom that crushes the feet, and prior to the feet we have the legs, which many id as the iron legs of the Roman Empire.
so if this Iron/clay Kingdom is crushed by God's Kingdom would it be currently in operation now? And if it is a non-human mixed with human kingdom, where is that now? It would have to be pretty significant for God wanting to crush it so.. It makes more sense for me for it to be about 2 groups of mankind, and not a super-human angel/man crossbred thing. That just does not make sense to me.
It seems more fitting that the last kingdom before God's Kingdom is ruled by humans, not angels or fallen angels. Mankind and its problem is not a governmental problem or boundaries of land disputes or economic strongholds, it is about MAN ruling himself as opposed to submitting to the Lord and having the Lord rule over him. I stand by what I brought forth with the scriptures about the struggle with the Flesh and Spirit. One of the destructions as a consequence of not following the Promise was the destruction of the 2nd temple. And it will repeat itself because man continues the same pattern. Hence, he is like iron, strong and stubborn, but the clay is brittle because it is still in its seed of men state, a fleshly body, yet is now being molded by the Creator. The flesh is weak...and soon we will no longer groan about it, for the redemption of this wretched body of ours will soon come to pass..
also, notice that when the stone not made with hands destroys the feet, this ALSO gets destroyed:
34“You continued looking until a stone was cut out without hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and crushed them. 35“Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors (hmmm see Rev 14 the angel and the sickel); and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
These two verses are so poetically accurate to what Truth will do once it begins to take over. notice the tense in verse 35: became a great mountain (parable of the mustard seed).. This is why we have more than one rapture event in revelation, as the Truth of the Christ expands like a flood, all the strongholds of man's lawlessness will be exposed, and in my opinion, begin to be healed. Revelation tells us that all the nations will come to be healed.. Praise Jesus!
3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, (the Stone has crushed the feet of all the prior kingdoms) and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”
5And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.”
1Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
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