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Post by socalexile on Dec 2, 2018 15:18:09 GMT -6
3:12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
3:13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
3:14 Because, we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence firmly to the end,
3:15 while it is said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the provocation."
3:16 Because some, having heard, did provoke. However not all who came out of Egypt by Moses.
3:17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness?
3:18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not believe?
3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
4:1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us have reverence lest any of you seem to have come short of it.
4:2 Because, the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.
4:3 Because, we who have believed do enter into rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'If they will enter into My rest,'" although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4:4 Because, He spoke in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works";
4:5 and again in this place: "If they will enter into My rest."
4:6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of unbelief,
4:7 again He declares a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts."
4:8 Because, if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not have afterward spoken about another day.
4:9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.
4:10 Because, he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his own works as God did from His.
4:11 Therefore let us labor to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of unbelief.
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Post by socalexile on Dec 9, 2018 10:52:58 GMT -6
the thing about the "changed life" people is that what it does is tell people to look to themselves for assurance of salvation. This seriously messes a lot of people up because all of us could point to something in our lives that needs changing or doesn't meet the perfect standard that people think they have to meet to be saved. Thus you have a 'perspiration of the saints' where people have no confidence whatsoever that Jesus is even doing what the think He's supposed to. They think they have to perspire in order to really be saved.
Instead, we're supposed to look to Jesus for our assurance and put our confidence (faith) in Him to have saved us.
The worst of the "changed life" people who fruit inspect others and look down on those who don't meet their requirements have a lack of faith. First, they have no confidence that God changes people according to His own time and standard, and second, that God shows grace to sinners to save them despite their sin.
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Post by socalexile on Jan 9, 2019 11:35:42 GMT -6
There's some problems with that. "Sin" in Hebrew and Greek means to "miss the mark"
I'd argue that the world is obsessed with sin and righteousness, especially that of others. Yet these weren't sins in the past. What counts as sin these days? Alcohol? Cigarettes? Being overweight? Liberalism? Slavery? Some of the prominent abolitionists in the 19th century naively held what we would consider to be Marxist ideals (Robert Gould Shaw's parents, for example). Is that a sin? When Calvin was giddy about the killing of heretics for disagreeing with him, was he sinning? Was he saved? The time period shouldn't matter.
The entire left/right political fight is about whose ideas are more just than others, and each side essentially sees the ideas of others as sin.
So do we miss the mark in Christ? If I'm obsessed with sin as a Christian, is my life any different than one trying to avoid sin by following the Mosaic Law? Is life fundamentally any different before Christ than it is after Christ? Is Jesus just as weak and unable to make me righteous before God that Hebrews 7-10 says the Law was?
If Christ did make me holy at the cross as Hebrews 10:10 says, then what power does sin have? Why do I then have to still be conscious of sin, just like the Law was too weak to eliminate the consciousness of (Hebrews 10:1-2)?
How do we reconcile the idea that the Law increased sin (Romans 5:20), yet where there is no Law, there is no transgression (Romans 4:15), yet tell people that they must not sin? What about Romans 7:1-4? I thought Jesus' yoke was supposed to be light!
Unless pop-churchianity has it all wrong.
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Post by mike on Jan 9, 2019 11:45:45 GMT -6
Love this socalexile thanks for the reminder! EDIT - stormyknight - I didnt say this, SoCal did in the Dec 9 post  |
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Post by stormyknight on Jan 9, 2019 21:22:13 GMT -6
socalexile , this is something that actually came up for me awhile back. I have an app on my phone that gives me a verse from the Word every day. This particular time it was from Hebrews 5.
"But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." Heb. 5:14
From that, I am learning, 'by reason of use', that the more I go to God in my mind/spirit to ask for help or discernment on an issue, the more I am able to recognize good or evil, Not that I don't have a clue, but, sometimes things come up, as I'm sure it happens for all of us, and I just need a little extra assurance. It wasn't that long ago that I was pretty down on myself. I even reached out to you all for support, which I greatly appreciate. Not much has changed in my life, except ME. I have been asking for guidance for more and more. Some days it's like I am constantly talking to God, our Heavenly Father. Just a running dialogue all day long. And it has helped tremendously.
What I want to point out, though, is that "sin", or missing the mark, is different for each of us, as I'm also sure you and everyone know. We're all at a different place in our walk. But we all have the same Holy Spirit in us that smacks us up side the head when we miss the mark. 'you know better than that!' Those who judge where others are in their walk are most likely falling behind those whom they are judging. Like mike said, they are lacking faith. Are we to judge them for it? We know that we are training to be righteous judges. So back to the verse, "by reason of use have their senses exercised". Their senses? Would that not be the Holy Spirit? The NLT says it thus:
"who through training have the skill to recognize the difference between right and wrong." Heb. 5:14
or, in my opinion, an even better translation from the ESV:
"for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice" Heb. 5:14
Trained by whom? The Holy Spirit. So if it's watching porn or walking by and ignoring that piece of trash by the sidewalk when there is a trashcan a few yards down the way, we know what is right and what is wrong. Is it a sin to ignore that piece of trash? It doesn't say anything about that specifically in the Word of God, but we know through our training that it's not right to let God's creation get trashed up. Am I going to judge you for not picking it up? No. I don't know your situation. For all I know, you may be allergic to sidewalk dust. But if I'm there too, and I don't pick it up, that Spirit within me will let me know that ignoring that piece of trash wasn't right. Eventually we will all come to the same place, same discernment and same attitude about what is right and what is wrong because we all have the same Holy Spirit with in us. The same Spirit of Jesus Christ and our Heavenly Father.
Having said (all) that, I say, the Law didn't increase sin, but by having the Holy Spirit, which the Israelites did not have (generally speaking), we are able to discern more of what is sin, or missing the mark. It doesn't matter if you sinned today, because you sinned before today. What matters is that you changed your mind about sin, repented, and have invited the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ and our Heavenly Father in to teach you how to sin less. Fruits of the Spirit. We are learning to be more and more perfect, even though we can never be perfect in the flesh. I thank our Heavenly Father that we have Jesus "who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin." Heb. 4:15
I don't know if I'm ready for a ribeye yet, but I'm willing to try the 'hamburger of truth'. haha I've got a lot of growing to do.
Maranatha and Love to all.
I'm sorry, I misspoke. The Law does increase sin according to Romans 5:20. I'm not sure I understand how, though, because with the Law, you 'don't do this, this and this'. A list of Laws, and humans being human will go, but if I do 'this', which is not on that list, I'm not sinning. But having the Holy Spirit, we understand that having hateful thoughts toward our fellowman is just as much a sin as murder, same with lustful thoughts. I would imagine before there was a lot of "phtissh, I didn't murder anyone, so what if I'm angry at my neighbor! I didn't sin according to the Law". There was no comprehension because they didn't have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.
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Post by Gary on Jan 9, 2019 21:43:06 GMT -6
Man, this is a really great thread. No pressure, but Socal, may I have your permission to use some of your notes for a future article? I'm specifically interested in Post #2.
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Post by socalexile on Jan 9, 2019 23:39:39 GMT -6
Man, this is a really great thread. No pressure, but Socal, may I have your permission to use some of your notes for a future article? I'm specifically interested in Post #2. Thanks. Go ahead, and use it. I really can't take credit for any of it. I'd like to think that it didn't come from me so it isn't mine to hoard. |
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Post by socalexile on Jan 9, 2019 23:41:18 GMT -6
From a great FB group that has helped me immensely (PM me for the link if you'd like. It's not the typical FB religious train wreck of a group):  |
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Post by cwood85 on Jan 10, 2019 8:28:25 GMT -6
From a great FB group that has helped me immensely (PM me for the link if you'd like. It's not the typical FB religious train wreck of a group): View Attachment This is very touching and beautiful. Thank you for sharing this. |
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Post by Gary on Jan 11, 2019 14:00:20 GMT -6
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Post by socalexile on Jan 15, 2019 11:23:05 GMT -6
(From a discussion) The thing is, there are a ton of Christian churches and movements that apply the Law in various amounts, but ultimately they're all doing the same thing: picking and choosing which ones to follow and which ones to ignore. It's not at all about rules in the New Testament. It's about witness. Romans 14:14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. 22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin. BTW I don't take these as salvific verses. Condemnation here is in regards to conscience, due to little faith; however, we shouldn't destroy that faith. Somewhere though, the church lost the plot and thinks that there are now 1,000+ laws in the NT that must be kept (of course, they get cherrypicked also) or else you weren't really a disciple/saved. How many Determinist atheists dare out there because they think they can't be Christian enough? Turns out there's not much to it - but preachers think they have to raise the bar and change the Gospel to meet some standard someone invented. Much of the church has hedged the Gospel as the Pharisees hedged the Law. Christ died for ALL slaves, but not all the slaves believe they are free, so they keep being slaves. |
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Post by Gary on Jan 15, 2019 14:07:05 GMT -6
I agree with all of that, we just need to divide in the context of Rom. 14 and with the rest of Scripture. Certainly whatever is not from faith is sin, but we should be clear that the conclusion Paul is reaching is not to say that "if I believe sin is ok then it's ok." In other words, we need to consistently preach that murder is sin whether you think it's sin or not, because God makes the rules and sin is not merely defined by what I think, feel, or believe. Same with pornography, pedophilia, hate, theft, homosexuality, deceit, pride, etc, etc, etc.
Our sin cost Christ His life and many of us didn't even know what sin was until we came to understand the gospel. Indeed the final and ultimate sin is unbelief and all other sins flow from that. Outside of faith in Christ (substitution), everyone is judged by their deeds.
I defend "hyper-grace" all the time, but I've also seen it taken to the extreme of true antinomianism, which can have the effect that those claiming the mantle of grace through Christ are in fact preaching this gospel:
Christ died
for our sins
was buried
rose again
In other words, Jesus died because He loves me and He accepts and approves of all my behavior; vs. gospel: Jesus died the brutal death I deserved because my sins had separated me from God. He died for actual justice due for wrongs done.
We are free and forgiven for all sins, past, present, and future, but we are not to use our freedom for the opportunity to indulge our fleshly desires (Gal. 5:13) for those fleshly desires are what led us to sin in the first place, which in turn made Christ's death necessary.
Our testimony is strongest in the world when we: 1. Correctly preach the OSAS gospel of grace, 2. Love one another, and 3. Live godly lives (out of that love).
Anyway, these aren't arguments. You may already agree, I just wanted to take the opportunity to clarify what we stand for.
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Post by socalexile on Jan 15, 2019 23:15:16 GMT -6
This is from a Lutheran (LCMS) oriented blog: Jesus the AntinomianOn a sort-of side note, the Antinomian Controversy from 17th Century Puritans in the Massachusetts Bay Colony centered around where one gets their assurance of salvation. T his explains. |
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Post by Gary on Jan 16, 2019 9:09:21 GMT -6
This is from a Lutheran (LCMS) oriented blog: Jesus the AntinomianOn a sort-of side note, the Antinomian Controversy from 17th Century Puritans in the Massachusetts Bay Colony centered around where one gets their assurance of salvation. T his explains. That's a great article with which I can wholeheartedly agree. If only the Church could consistently preach that message.... I wonder how many might come to faith who have otherwise been shut out by Christianity. Also, I have to use the term antinomian carefully, because it is used by some as an attack on free-grace/sola fide. But the word means "against law". We uphold the law (as a righteous standard), but we are not under it. For this reason, I can largely agree with Luther about certain uses of the law in the life of a Christian—never as a standard of salvation or things that must be done to be right with God—but as things that help us understand the heart of God. Understanding the law magnifies our understanding of how much we need Christ. |
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Post by socalexile on Feb 5, 2019 23:25:47 GMT -6
A small update on my 3rd post regarding John 8:9 and the "beginning with the oldest to the last" statement made by Jesus. I've changed my mind on this and I think it may have to do with "the younger over the older" which is a reference to Jacob and Esau with the understanding of what Paul wrote in Romans 9 regarding the Jews and the Gentiles (it is not about individuals, but nations). Ie could understand this to be a reference to the Law, as taught by Jews and/or Gentiles, being removed. board.unsealed.org/post/24129/thread |
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