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Post by socalexile on Nov 21, 2018 12:44:18 GMT -6
A mosaic of thoughts when speaking to an atheist who "couldn't 'believe'": That seems like there is the underlying reasoning in the church that the things of Christ are a combination lock. You do the right things, try to be sincere, they read, they pray, and they expect something back emotionally. It's not an emotional thing, as much as many modern churches try to make it one (I have to wonder if they're seeking God or seeking an emotional high - although the latter when sincerely seeking the former is not a sin). You don't get saved more than once, and once you're in, you're in. It's not about a change - that's Old Testament thinking. Yes, we may change but our faith isn't about change. God is about accepting us where we are. It is never about what we do or how we feel - it's about what God has done and how He feels. But what were you expecting? Yes, it's not a combination lock, but at the same time, you went through the motions expecting a result. Do you mean by "believing" a certain emotional response that so many Christians claim to have? It's really not about that. It's simply accepting that God has provided through Jesus Christ a means by which we can have peace with Him. Most of the New Testament comes down to these three things: 1- You can't out-God God, especially by the expectation that clean living or religious stuff will somehow obligate the creator of the universe to give you what you want. 2- Explaining what really the Biblical concept of the Messiah is all about to non-Jews; aka 'what Jesus really did' and what it means. 3- Here's what you guys should (emphasis on should not 'must' or 'will') do now. I.e., love your neighbor as yourself. It's not about what you put in or the feedback you get. It's about Him, not because good is external to Him or because He defines an external good, but because He and good is the same thing. When a man claims he is the best thing for a woman, and then is jealous, he's doing something wrong because he in his limited knowledge of her, her needs and the potentiality for her good in the timeline of her life is flawed and limited, and ultimately is only seeking what he thinks is his own good, consciously or subconsciously. If "Good" itself is a conscious, living thing, then it is another situation entirely. If Good knows all potentialities in regards to time, knows the hearts of all people and knows the result of all actions, then His jealousy is just, since He can actually truly define what is the actual best thing, because it is Good itself defining it. The thing is, we are not Good, nor can we be, and as a result, we cannot define what is good for Good, or judge Good not to be good, if that makes any sense. Saying Good is not good is not logically coherent. It is not about 'might makes right' but 'right makes right' aka "good" personified, and to want good for someone is logically and humbly within the realm of 'Good' to present itself as the solution. All God is, is Good spelled without the 2nd vowel.
Sorry -- Not following you here "...It is never about what we do or how we feel - it's about what God has done and how He feels....."
What do you mean how God Feels?
God feels Love us .... may be disappointed, may be proud .... but He Loves us -- beyond what we can ever comprehend ....
The KEY is it is All God (or specifically -- It is All what Jesus Already accomplished)
Not sure on the"drawing", 'Wooing" by the Holy Spirit -- but by the time it "becomes our turn" for anything ... it is all about -- are we trusting what God (Jesus) DID -- or are we still promising we will do better -- ie... still trying our own work.... that is Not salvation (trying to do it on your own -- or effort) -- the TRUST (belief) is about what was DONE.... period....
My point is that our salvation and relationship with God is not based on fleeting emotions, but on the basis of God's promises to us. The person I was talking to did the altar call thing but then did the "after the emotional high passed...." thing. My point is that it's not about the emotional high. The Bible does not state that the Holy Spirit draws. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Nov 21, 2018 12:59:20 GMT -6
socal said: AMEN, socalexileI am reminded of Galations 3: the Promise, the Law, what it means to be a son of Abraham.. with this point: 24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise. |
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Post by kjs on Nov 21, 2018 13:53:09 GMT -6
Sorry -- Not following you here "...It is never about what we do or how we feel - it's about what God has done and how He feels....."
What do you mean how God Feels?
God feels Love us .... may be disappointed, may be proud .... but He Loves us -- beyond what we can ever comprehend ....
The KEY is it is All God (or specifically -- It is All what Jesus Already accomplished)
Not sure on the"drawing", 'Wooing" by the Holy Spirit -- but by the time it "becomes our turn" for anything ... it is all about -- are we trusting what God (Jesus) DID -- or are we still promising we will do better -- ie... still trying our own work.... that is Not salvation (trying to do it on your own -- or effort) -- the TRUST (belief) is about what was DONE.... period....
My point is that our salvation and relationship with God is not based on fleeting emotions, but on the basis of God's promises to us. The person I was talking to did the altar call thing but then did the "after the emotional high passed...." thing. My point is that it's not about the emotional high. The Bible does not state that the Holy Spirit draws. The Bible does not state that the Holy Spirit draws.
Granted does not specifically say the Holy Spirit does the drawing -- but it is implied .....
The clearest verse on God’s drawing to salvation is John 6:44 where Jesus declares that “no one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.” The Greek word translated “draw” is helkuo, which means “to drag” (literally or figuratively). Clearly, this drawing is a one-sided affair. God does the drawing to salvation; we who are drawn have a passive role in the process. There is no doubt that we respond to His drawing us, but the drawing itself is all on His part.
John 16:8 When He comes, He will convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment— (The He being spoken of here is the Holy Spirit -- or comforter)
The Holy Spirit convicts us of our sinful state and our need for a Savior
I Corinthians 2
10 But God has revealed those things to us by his Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the deep things of God.
The Holy Spirit reveals God (and Jesus) to our darken minds ... He enlightens us (which allows us to respond)
14 A person who isn’t spiritual doesn’t accept the things of God’s Spirit, for they are nonsense to him. He can’t understand them because they are spiritually evaluated.
15 The spiritual person evaluates everything but is subject to no one else’s evaluation.
Holy Spirit awakens in us a previously unknown interest in spiritual things and creates a desire for them that was never there before.
John 16: 13 Yet when the Spirit of Truth comes, he’ll guide you into all truth. He won’t speak on his own accord, but he’ll speak whatever he hears and will declare to you the things that are to come.
14 He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine. That is why I said, ‘He will take what is mine and declare it to you.’
Over and over again the scriptures teach the Holy Spirit is "the teacher", "the correct-or", "the Guide"
SO Yes, the Holy Spirit being one of the "PARTS" of God does the drawing
(and do not ask me about the trinity -- since I cannot explain it at all -- I simply accept it)
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Nov 21, 2018 14:02:55 GMT -6
I believe one of the biggest "mistakes" a christian takes with them after an altar call conversion is many are left ill-equipped to go out in the world, or think they are immune to deception and trial the rest of their physical life, or are unaware of what Walking in Faith really means. I have a dear close friend who remained a slave to sin even while believing Jesus was God and crucified died, rose again, all that salvation prayer stuff. As a bystander in her life I could see some of these of lawlessness, but it is not for me to state anything about her heart. I can not "see" her heart...I can only see the lack thereof of fruit of the Spirit. She said she had professed her faith in Jesus as a 20 year old, only to go out into the world fruitless, and being fruitless. She only started bearing fruit large enough for me to see 6 years or so ago..she is 56. In fact, her fruits are bigger than mine and more abundant now! HAHA! I will say her seed was planted in sandy soil...or if anything, UNFERTILE soil..the seed was there but not enough support around it to cause it to grow. No one told her she would be entering into a battle...oh no, that would squelch the emotional high of the altar call.. She always wonders if she had 'lost' her salvation. My perspective is a christian lacks an understanding of the flesh and its weakness leading to seperating us from righteousness. It is very hard to hear the Lord when you are listening to someone else. in regards to the Holy Spirit drawing... John6:44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. If God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three in One, I could see one equating the Holy Spirit with the Father in this passage.. socalexile, many aspects of what you are sharing of how you are seeing things I say Amen to..and the kinsman redeemer...very important teaching..another OT event that was ALWAYS going to be about Jesus! I do think there is a lack of OT events being seen as a roadmap of God's Kingdom. It not about the people per se, but about obedience verses disobedience of the order/rules/laws/celebrations/Feast elements, the timing of the Feasts, etc..the people were there as the physical example of what each person has or will experience when they are either walking With God toward the Light, or walking toward darkness and remain in the wilderness.. 1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.'Paul goes on with more examples of his people falling and suffering destruction
11Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 12Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. 13No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.My bolded part here ^^^^ is to emphasize that when you leave the altar and the church doors shut behind you on the way out, your ears and eyes are not glorified yet..be prepared for the battle.. 11Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
The armor list is: 14Stand firm therefore, HAVING GIRDED YOUR LOINS WITH TRUTH, and HAVING PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, 15and having shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE; 16in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. notice this is not a going to confession list, going to church on time, tithing, being a church volunteering for nursery help or greeting people, or leading a bible study, or doing anything else that people see..this is a covering over you, your flesh and blood for protection! There are many parts of to this outfit... |
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Post by socalexile on Nov 21, 2018 15:17:12 GMT -6
My point is that our salvation and relationship with God is not based on fleeting emotions, but on the basis of God's promises to us. The person I was talking to did the altar call thing but then did the "after the emotional high passed...." thing. My point is that it's not about the emotional high. The Bible does not state that the Holy Spirit draws. The Bible does not state that the Holy Spirit draws.
Granted does not specifically say the Holy Spirit does the drawing -- but it is implied .....
The clearest verse on God’s drawing to salvation is John 6:44 where Jesus declares that “no one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.” The Greek word translated “draw” is helkuo, which means “to drag” (literally or figuratively). Clearly, this drawing is a one-sided affair. God does the drawing to salvation; we who are drawn have a passive role in the process. There is no doubt that we respond to His drawing us, but the drawing itself is all on His part.
John 16:8 When He comes, He will convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment— (The He being spoken of here is the Holy Spirit -- or comforter)
The Holy Spirit convicts us of our sinful state and our need for a Savior
I Corinthians 2
10 But God has revealed those things to us by his Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the deep things of God. The Holy Spirit reveals God (and Jesus) to our darken minds ... He enlightens us (which allows us to respond)
14 A person who isn’t spiritual doesn’t accept the things of God’s Spirit, for they are nonsense to him. He can’t understand them because they are spiritually evaluated.
15 The spiritual person evaluates everything but is subject to no one else’s evaluation. Holy Spirit awakens in us a previously unknown interest in spiritual things and creates a desire for them that was never there before. John 16: 13 Yet when the Spirit of Truth comes, he’ll guide you into all truth. He won’t speak on his own accord, but he’ll speak whatever he hears and will declare to you the things that are to come.
14 He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine. That is why I said, ‘He will take what is mine and declare it to you.’
Over and over again the scriptures teach the Holy Spirit is "the teacher", "the correct-or", "the Guide" SO Yes, the Holy Spirit being one of the "PARTS" of God does the drawing (and do not ask me about the trinity -- since I cannot explain it at all -- I simply accept it)
Bottom line is that it never says that the HS draws. It says that the Father draws and that the Son draws - and the Greek word in John 6:44 isn't "drag by force", which is another word. It metaphorically means to "impel" or "draw". The HS convicts nonbelievers per John 16:8, revealed things to the Apostles (John 16), teaches the church, yes, but it does not say that the HS drags anyone. |
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Post by socalexile on Nov 21, 2018 15:38:23 GMT -6
I believe one of the biggest "mistakes" a christian takes with them after an altar call conversion is many are left ill-equipped to go out in the world, or think they are immune to deception and trial the rest of their physical life, or are unaware of what Walking in Faith really means. I have a dear close friend who remained a slave to sin even while believing Jesus was God and crucified died, rose again, all that salvation prayer stuff. As a bystander in her life I could see some of these of lawlessness, but it is not for me to state anything about her heart. I can not "see" her heart...I can only see the lack thereof of fruit of the Spirit. She said she had professed her faith in Jesus as a 20 year old, only to go out into the world fruitless, and being fruitless. She only started bearing fruit large enough for me to see 6 years or so ago..she is 56. In fact, her fruits are bigger than mine and more abundant now! HAHA! I will say her seed was planted in sandy soil...or if anything, UNFERTILE soil..the seed was there but not enough support around it to cause it to grow. No one told her she would be entering into a battle...oh no, that would squelch the emotional high of the altar call.. She always wonders if she had 'lost' her salvation. My perspective is a christian lacks an understanding of the flesh and its weakness leading to seperating us from righteousness. It is very hard to hear the Lord when you are listening to someone else. in regards to the Holy Spirit drawing... John6:44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. If God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three in One, I could see one equating the Holy Spirit with the Father in this passage.. socalexile , many aspects of what you are sharing of how you are seeing things I say Amen to..and the kinsman redeemer...very important teaching..another OT event that was ALWAYS going to be about Jesus! I do think there is a lack of OT events being seen as a roadmap of God's Kingdom. It not about the people per se, but about obedience verses disobedience of the order/rules/laws/celebrations/Feast elements, the timing of the Feasts, etc..the people were there as the physical example of what each person has or will experience when they are either walking With God toward the Light, or walking toward darkness and remain in the wilderness.. 1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.'Paul goes on with more examples of his people falling and suffering destruction
11Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 12Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. 13No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.My bolded part here ^^^^ is to emphasize that when you leave the altar and the church doors shut behind you on the way out, your ears and eyes are not glorified yet..be prepared for the battle.. 11Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
The armor list is: 14Stand firm therefore, HAVING GIRDED YOUR LOINS WITH TRUTH, and HAVING PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, 15and having shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE; 16in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. notice this is not a going to confession list, going to church on time, tithing, being a church volunteering for nursery help or greeting people, or leading a bible study, or doing anything else that people see..this is a covering over you, your flesh and blood for protection! There are many parts of to this outfit... Does Jesus know the difference between the Father, Son, and the HS? He said that the Father and Son draw, not the HS. Perhaps the drawing itself is not the Calvinistic concept, but the idea that men see the good of Christ, and are attracted to His light in this dark world. The world knows something is wrong - they just look to other things for righteousness: politics, religious deeds, Keto, etc. As for the thing about your friend, where do I start? Are we free from sin by the cross or are we required to follow the Law to be freed from sin? It seems you've judged your friend by the latter and not the former. The problem with that is that the NT is clear that works aren't evidence, see Matt. 7:21-23, Luke 18:9-14, and 2 Corinthians 11:13-15. How is that actually being free from sin if it still condemns us? 1- When Paul writes of the "flesh" he's speaking of material, physical accomplishments in general; i.e. things done in this world by humans. 2- Righteousness is imputed, and can only be imputed, by faith, and at the point of faith, God sees you as righteous and gives you the HS as a guarantee. We don't get separated from righteousness. Period. The problem is that people look to the flesh for righteousness (see #1) and don't think it's only found by trusting in Christ. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Nov 21, 2018 16:46:38 GMT -6
socalexileIn everything I wrote I made NO mention of works. Fruit is NOT works. Perhaps we need a definition of fruit. Maybe you equate fruit to works. I do not. But there is evidence of someone who is of the Spirit. There HAS to be otherwise deception come in. Further down in Matthew 7 this is spoken:
15“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16“You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17“So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18“A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20“So then, you will know them by their fruits.
I do not see this as someone going to hell, I see this as someone constantly wandering the wilderness apart from the Lord. The fire is for refining. The more a person Walks toward or in the Light the more our refining is being perfected. This is NOT works, this is perfecting one's Faith and letting JESUS rule over your life, not the idols of the world. Did it seem I was making a works claim? I was very careful in NOT creating a sense of works to obtain anything, or that my friend needed to be doing something according to MY standards... If my friend had been responding and walking in the Light, she would have been able to commune better with the Lord which in turn would have maybe caused her to practice patience, been able to put her self aside and not put herself first over her spouse, she would not have made vanity her idol like she had been doing. These are words from her very own mouth. Her lawlessness was resulting in her inability to HEAR the Lord guiding her in her salvation walk, she was CONSTANTLY in the wilderness. Jesus was always there, but she was stumbling Her own words. Tell me where I am wrong on that thinking... You have me very confused at the moment. Lets go to those verses you posted... Matt 7 21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
Yes, and she was practicing lawlessness, that is my point. She went to church on sundays and flirted with infidelity on fridays. she cared about the world and her position in the world. Her words, not mine. yet she went to church. she was a good person, she was nice to people she thought that what was being a christian was. and she swore on his name daily.. she acted like a pharisee...her words, not mine. Luke 18 9And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: 10“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11“The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12‘I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13“But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14“I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”Amen! Again, the heart of the tax collector is bearing evidence of fruit! with my friend, there was no humility in her, no humbleness, everything was unfair to her, she desired wealth, the latest fashion, wanted to be seen where it was important to be seen. Vanity. 30 years after her reciting the salvation prayer... 2 Cor: 13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.
None of this is talking about fruit. this is all about doing things of the flesh for approval. My friend LACKED FAITH! She believed the prayer but did not repent such that she could hear. She remained in the wilderness. here is an example of fruit: 1If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.evidence that the Holy spirit is alive and well within a person and causing a change in that person.. this is NOT works.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Nov 21, 2018 21:12:10 GMT -6
ok, socal, but it ALSO is each one's "body" and the action it takes, eyes looking at impure things, mouth speaking ill will, hands being violent...and in looking at #1 where did I say something incorrect about the flesh in my original post? Are you correcting me on something? This is part of my confusion in our communication.
These are the verses that come to my mind in regards to what it means to be walking in Faith by the Spirit...verses one's own desires, one's flesh.
Gal 5 16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
fruit then explained:
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
First of all, you are saying the same thing I am but at another angle, and are describing the situation of my friend before she began Walking by Faith 6 years ago..she was looking to her flesh for her righteousness., that was my whole point. She believed Jesus was real but had NO FAITH or was LACKING FAITH in that belief. You are agreeing with me, but if you seem to be disagreeing with something I said, what is the disagreement? again, I am a little confused by your reply of #2 here..
as far as righteousness...it is my understanding that attaining righteousness is on ongoing active process...
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
this verbage "might become" also meaning: to emerge, become, transitioning from one point (realm, condition) to another. being a subjunctive verb tense to be real picky here, this righteousness is a definite outcome that will happen as a result of another stated action. ... another way stated, one is either obtaining righteousness or not obtaining righteousness..there is no idle spot..it is an active ongoing process...
Until we receive our glorified bodies, this is always going to be an issue with our current mortal state. If it were a one and done attainment of righteous behavior then why all the letters in the NT encouraging perserverence, overcoming the desires of our flesh,
let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
this is a present, active statement. not passive or past tense..
If our Walk is not active why this statement about discipline?
7It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
11All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
This tells me that we are capable of not being righteous in the eyes of the Father by our actions, giving Him reason for discipline. This not about Salvation, this is about perfecting our Faith..
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Post by socalexile on Nov 23, 2018 22:43:17 GMT -6
socalexile In everything I wrote I made NO mention of works. Fruit is NOT works. Perhaps we need a definition of fruit. Maybe you equate fruit to works. I do not. But there is evidence of someone who is of the Spirit. There HAS to be otherwise deception come in. Further down in Matthew 7 this is spoken:
15“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16“You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17“So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18“A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20“So then, you will know them by their fruits.
I do not see this as someone going to hell, I see this as someone constantly wandering the wilderness apart from the Lord. The fire is for refining. The more a person Walks toward or in the Light the more our refining is being perfected. This is NOT works, this is perfecting one's Faith and letting JESUS rule over your life, not the idols of the world. Did it seem I was making a works claim? I was very careful in NOT creating a sense of works to obtain anything, or that my friend needed to be doing something according to MY standards... If my friend had been responding and walking in the Light, she would have been able to commune better with the Lord which in turn would have maybe caused her to practice patience, been able to put her self aside and not put herself first over her spouse, she would not have made vanity her idol like she had been doing. These are words from her very own mouth. Her lawlessness was resulting in her inability to HEAR the Lord guiding her in her salvation walk, she was CONSTANTLY in the wilderness. Jesus was always there, but she was stumbling Her own words. Tell me where I am wrong on that thinking... You have me very confused at the moment. Lets go to those verses you posted... Matt 7 21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
Yes, and she was practicing lawlessness, that is my point. She went to church on sundays and flirted with infidelity on fridays. she cared about the world and her position in the world. Her words, not mine. yet she went to church. she was a good person, she was nice to people she thought that what was being a christian was. and she swore on his name daily.. she acted like a pharisee...her words, not mine. Luke 18 9And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: 10“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11“The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12‘I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13“But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14“I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”Amen! Again, the heart of the tax collector is bearing evidence of fruit! with my friend, there was no humility in her, no humbleness, everything was unfair to her, she desired wealth, the latest fashion, wanted to be seen where it was important to be seen. Vanity. 30 years after her reciting the salvation prayer... 2 Cor: 13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.
None of this is talking about fruit. this is all about doing things of the flesh for approval. My friend LACKED FAITH! She believed the prayer but did not repent such that she could hear. She remained in the wilderness. here is an example of fruit: 1If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.evidence that the Holy spirit is alive and well within a person and causing a change in that person.. this is NOT works. But the evidence IS works if one seeks to fruit inspect another. That's the thing. The three passages I brought up are concerning works as evidence of faith. The false teachers in Matthew 7:21-23 tried to bypass Christ by their works. The Tax Collector of Luke 18 still walked away a Tax Collector. And it seems you missed the point of the false teachers of 2 Corinthians 11. Outward performance is not an indicator of inward reality. Whether you backload or frontload 'a changed life' as evidence of faith doesn't make a difference - it's judging someone by works. Yet even the unsaved can change their lives and seek self-improvement. |
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Post by socalexile on Nov 23, 2018 23:12:56 GMT -6
ok, socal, but it ALSO is each one's "body" and the action it takes, eyes looking at impure things, mouth speaking ill will, hands being violent...and in looking at #1 where did I say something incorrect about the flesh in my original post? Are you correcting me on something? This is part of my confusion in our communication. These are the verses that come to my mind in regards to what it means to be walking in Faith by the Spirit...verses one's own desires, one's flesh. Gal 5 16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
fruit then explained: 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.First of all, you are saying the same thing I am but at another angle, and are describing the situation of my friend before she began Walking by Faith 6 years ago..she was looking to her flesh for her righteousness., that was my whole point. She believed Jesus was real but had NO FAITH or was LACKING FAITH in that belief. You are agreeing with me, but if you seem to be disagreeing with something I said, what is the disagreement? again, I am a little confused by your reply of #2 here.. as far as righteousness...it is my understanding that attaining righteousness is on ongoing active process... He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
this verbage "might become" also meaning: to emerge, become, transitioning from one point (realm, condition) to another. being a subjunctive verb tense to be real picky here, this righteousness is a definite outcome that will happen as a result of another stated action. ... another way stated, one is either obtaining righteousness or not obtaining righteousness..there is no idle spot..it is an active ongoing process... Until we receive our glorified bodies, this is always going to be an issue with our current mortal state. If it were a one and done attainment of righteous behavior then why all the letters in the NT encouraging perserverence, overcoming the desires of our flesh, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
this is a present, active statement. not passive or past tense.. If our Walk is not active why this statement about discipline? 7It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
11All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
This tells me that we are capable of not being righteous in the eyes of the Father by our actions, giving Him reason for discipline. This not about Salvation, this is about perfecting our Faith.. Look, your using language that doesn't make any sense because you're redefining how these terms are used, and the logic doesn't follow. You're saying one thing then immediately contradicting it and making a case for the opposite. First, you can't claim that the flesh refers to "one's own desires" then quote verse 17 which specifically says, "you may not do the things that you please" which means the flesh goes against their desires. Second, look at the non-believing world right now and see all the things Paul listed as deeds of the flesh, and notice how the world is obsessed with trying to be righteous through everything and anything except faith in Christ. They try to be righteous through politics, false religion, etc., and it ends up producing what Paul listed. Yet Christians who have actually rested in Christ experience the things listed as the fruit of the Spirit. You're adding to the context of 2 Corinthians 5:21, when what you are saying is NOT in the verse. That passage is about treating people who have been reconciled in Christ as a new creation; i.e. not holding past grudges or sins against them. It's not talking about doing better works so that we MIGHT be more righteous - as if the righteousness Christ gives us isn't complete. We are sanctified, aka 'set apart' as a one-time event by the cross: "By that will, we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" - Hebrews 10:10 Hebrews 12:1 is in the context of public witness, coming from the context of Hebrews 11, where the writer uses OT people as an example of good witnesses in the service of God. This section is very similar to James 2 in that it is NOT talking about evidence of faith, but about an effective witness to the world in the service of God. These things are not about US and improving ourselves, it is about getting others saved! |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Nov 24, 2018 7:38:27 GMT -6
so, how are we to know someone who is walking by the Spirit then?
I get that, and you have the word self-improvement in there, therein lies an indicator for me anyways, aren't we to die to self?. so this unsaved person to me would be demonstrate they are lacking Faith and relying on what the world has for an answer to the world's defintion of "morality" or "righteousness"
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AMEN! That is what my friend was NOT doing for nearly 25 years from saying the salvation prayer. SHE WAS NOT RESTING IN HIM! I was trying to explain that that is what I was observing.
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Post by socalexile on Nov 24, 2018 16:21:20 GMT -6
so, how are we to know someone who is walking by the Spirit then? If you mean, "how do we know someone is saved, if it is by faith"; we don't. We can only ask where their faith is, and judge the sincerity since we don't' know their heart. I get that, and you have the word self-improvement in there, therein lies an indicator for me anyways, aren't we to die to self?. so this unsaved person to me would be demonstrate they are lacking Faith and relying on what the world has for an answer to the world's defintion of "morality" or "righteousness" Right, and look at the mess it's made the world. AMEN, That is what my friend was NOT doing for nearly 25 years from saying the salvation prayer. SHE WAS NOT RESTING IN HIM! I was trying to explain that that is what I was observing. Please be careful of your terms. Even the correct terms that are misused by many preachers have become re-defined. Most people when they talk of "the flesh" refer to those things that Paul never thought good even when he was in the flesh, and them people misinterpret Romans 7-8. Even Mormons and Calvinists use different meanings for common Christian terms, and it deceives people. |
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Post by socalexile on Nov 24, 2018 20:40:41 GMT -6
She nails it clearer than I have:
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Nov 25, 2018 16:40:38 GMT -6
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Nov 26, 2018 19:34:04 GMT -6
something came to me socalexile... lend a word to those who perhaps have been burdened by the essences of religiousness with this explanation of what REST means...it would seem this goes hand in hand with Faith...right? What does Resting in Him really mean? |
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