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Post by venge on Aug 1, 2018 5:42:26 GMT -6
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Post by Natalie on Aug 1, 2018 8:09:02 GMT -6
I understand your interpretation; I've heard it before. And I will admit that you could be right, and I could be wrong. I will have to re-read Joel and study it before giving you an answer about it.
But I feel like you are not answering my original question...
What I don't understand is where you get your interpretation for earthquakes being something other than earthquakes. The text clearly says, "there was an earthquake" and yet you say it's not an earthquake. Rev 6:12-17 gives more details for Isaiah 2:19 that says God shakes the earth and men hide. Scripture interpreting Scripture. If a person interprets the words in the text to mean other things what is to keep them from saying whatever they want whenever they want? That's what I meant when I asked, "Where does it stop?" What if I wanted to interpret horses as kings or Jerusalem as Kansas City or the wilderness as the moon...I could make up whatever I wanted because that's what it means to me. I see no reason to call an earthquake something else. Unless you can provide some support for it.
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Post by mike on Aug 1, 2018 9:01:47 GMT -6
Acts 16:26 And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed.
Rev 11:13 And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand were killed in the quake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven
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Post by venge on Aug 1, 2018 10:04:48 GMT -6
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Post by gkp on Aug 1, 2018 21:18:46 GMT -6
Hi guys, I've hesitated to join this conversation as I don't have the time to do more than throw out a few thoughts without a lot of proof to support them. I can see both points of view expressed so far. My hope is to offer a bit more that might help bring the two sides together.
When I first started studying Revelation I kept getting sent back to the old Testament. Not by a human teacher but I believe the Holy Spirit took my efforts to understand seriously and made me go back and learn how the ideas in Revelation had their roots as far back as Genesis. I learned to consider how the first use of a word like "river" or "sea" or "mountain" could be a key to understanding how these words were used in Revelation. And I believe God developed these themes all through the later uses of the words. So, with a firm background in the OT, a person could have a much better chance of understanding the pictures of Revelation.
I think a person needs to consider literal first but be open to a bigger idea. The Hebrew language of the OT is very much a picture language. Think about how things are described. Very literal and physical. No one in the OT was said to be depressed. It might be said their countenance was fallen or their hands hung down. It is fun to imagine how an OT saint would describe some of the things we go through these days! Greek is a different sort of language and it is able to express abstract ideas and thoughts. I believe that transition of Bible languages from Hebrew to Greek was in part planned by God to allow the themes of the Old Testament to be developed farther than the Hebrew would allow. I could give examples but just don't have the time now.
Revelation is a book where all the themes started in Genesis and developed throughout the Bible find their completion. I think Jesus Himself was the bridge between the very literal OT and the more philosophical and abstract ideas presented in the NT. Look at the parables. Jesus used basic elements like bread and fish and flesh and wine and fields and fruit to teach deep spiritual truth. Many times people scratched their heads and drew a blank because the literal interpretation made no sense. Jesus was teaching his disciples to see how literal pictures could convey great and profound truth.
Revelation is the hardest book to understand what is literal and what is symbolic. I sure haven't got it all figured out! But what a wonderful opportunity to seek the mind of Christ and learn His thoughts!
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Post by venge on Aug 2, 2018 6:03:32 GMT -6
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Post by gkp on Aug 2, 2018 9:25:30 GMT -6
venge Thanks for your response. Another little point that I think is worth considering: there can be different approaches to studying the Bible,especially Revelation. We go into study with a purpose. We want to know how God does things, where God does things, and especially when God does or will do things. I think for me a more important goal is to learn WHY God does things. I can leave the timing with Him and whether or not things play out on earth or in heaven. An earthquake is a shaking, a awake-up call. A get real notice out of the blue. In a literal earthquake the efforts of man are destroyed and tossed about like trinkets. In a symbolic way an earthquake is something that grabs you and shakes away all the things we are so casually taking for granted. Sometimes I think both are part of the same event. For me the highest privilege is to know God. I remember the conversations Moses had with God and marvel at their relationship. I want that. I want to be the kid who asks his Father "Why?" I believe He will answer if we wait at His feet with an open heart. Job, above all else, asked God "why?" Why the torment and pain? God answered Job in a profound way even beyond Job's understanding and then restored him. I'm just sort of rambling on, but my purpose is to always look up. I am glad you all in this group are doing the same.
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Post by mike on Aug 2, 2018 14:05:10 GMT -6
Tidbit I read some time ago certainly can be applied to our time regarding Matt 24 and the topic at hand. From BibleHub - Barnes NotesEarthquakes - In prophetic language, earthquakes sometimes mean political commotions. Literally, they are tremors or shakings of the earth, often shaking cities and towns to ruin. The earth opens, and houses and people sink indiscriminately to destruction. Many of these are mentioned as preceding the destruction of Jerusalem. Tacitus mentions one in the reign of Claudius, at Rome, and says that in the reign of Nero the cities of Laodicea, Hierapolis, and Colosse were overthrown, and the celebrated Pompeii was overwhelmed and almost destroyed by an earthquake, Annales, 15. 22. Others are mentioned as occurring at Smyrna, Miletus, Chios, and Samos. Luke adds, "And fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven," Luke 21:11. Josephus, who had probably never heard of this prophecy, and who certainly would have done nothing designedly to show its fulfillment, records the prodigies and signs which He says preceded the destruction of the city.
A star, says he, resembling a sword, stood over the city, and a comet that continued a whole year. At the feast of unleavened bread, during the night, a bright light shone round the altar and the temple, so that it seemed to be bright day, for half an hour. The eastern gate of the temple, of solid brass, fastened with strong bolts and bars, and which had been shut with difficulty by twenty men, opened in the night of its own accord. A few days after that feast, He says, "Before sunsetting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities." A great noise, as of the sound of a multitude, was heard in the temple, saying, "Let us remove hence." Four years before the war began, Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, came to the feast of the tabernacles when the city was in peace and prosperity, and began to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegroom and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" He was scourged, and at every stroke of the whip He cried, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" This cry, Josephus says, was continued every day for more than seven years, until He was killed in the siege of the city, exclaiming, "Woe, woe to myself also!" - Jewish Wars, b. 6 chapter 9, section 3. |
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Post by Natalie on Aug 2, 2018 14:57:31 GMT -6
There is a passage in Haggai that I see as both a literal shaking of the earth and a figurative shaking. Haggai 2:6-8 For thus says the Lord of hosts: ‘Once more (it is a little while) I will shake heaven and earth, the sea and dry land; and I will shake all nations, and they shall come to the Desire of All Nations, and I will fill this temple with glory,’ says the Lord of hosts. ‘The silver is Mine, and the gold is Mine,’ says the Lord of hosts. I see the first part as God using earthquakes and probably volcanoes. I connect it to verses like Revelation 6:12-13 and the other earthquake verses speaking of the End Times. It is literal and physical. The second part "shake the nations" is political and a figurative shaking. I interpret it that way because the earth, heavens, sea, and land are physical things, but nations are something defined by things that aren't so physical: government and types of people and culture. God probably is not going to pick up a whole nation and shake it so it's treasures fall out.  A literal interpretation does not make sense in that case, so there must be a different way to interpret it. What I am trying to understand is how do we know when an earthquake is not the physical shaking of the earth? How do we tell that when we are reading through Scripture? Like the verses in Isaiah. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 2, 2018 22:24:31 GMT -6
AMEN! I was told not to spiritualize the Bible,, or be careful, and to stick with hermeneutics, which to this day I still don;t understand that rule.. Is it listed in the Bible? I have yet to find the rules that I see defined under the definition of hermeneutics actually IN the Bible what I do see is this:
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
granted, I do know there are many false religions created from bad interpretation, but I am talking about the sincere Christ-follower, seeking the answers..which seems to most of this forums intent..
because 1) the great sign of 2017, and the Blood Moons of this century stirred a curiosity into Feasts and the Jubilees...
AND, 2) the TIME is near, and the Lord has been calling each and everyone of us from the grips of the churches organized by man, and wants each one of as we are personally in all our humble ways and not self-righteous behaviors....hmmm sounds like those overcomers in the letters to the churches...
He wants us seeking Him directly thru His Word, and not thru other men's published analysis/writings... He wants that close and personal relationship.
Problem is, we have the internet, so man can't help himself and wants to express what God has been showing him and spreads the news or information. Other men get in the way of that man's walk with Lord, question the interpretation for fear that person is not walking in the same way so that person is a heretic. Man can't help himself on that matter because he truly wants to be right, and there are scriptures that warn us of false prophets, so what do we do?.... Nothing wrong here, but where has man lost the trust in the Lord on a matter when the Trinity is not being denied, nor the Work on the Cross, but the timeframe and understanding of seasons, times, half a time and earthquakes get challenged? We are to LOVE one another on a matter, no?
Deep personal surrender to the Holy Spirit is my guess, as one studies His Word. All thru out the Word are similar sayings, precepts, keys, elements. There is way enough scripture to intepret scripture if one digs deep enough..And from your recent Bible study, learning the character of God and WHO WHAT HOW WHEN WHY He does what He does,,,my cap letters are not words of shouting, they are those questions: Who are You, God? Why (like Job asked), How does it work, or how is an earthquake also a shaking of men? WHEN are things to happen, and WHAT is Your Time, God? (your prophetic timing) verses our time (Literal 24 hour days?) The words in the Word guide us through what is prophetic timing (seasons, feast, jubilees) verses man's timing (lunar calendar/solar calendar)...not all timings listed in the Bible are actual days but prophetic counts...but one person may see that and not another...why is that? Lord, why is that?
Nat, I know that nearly all of what I just wrote you know...you know this....I have faith in that!! I am typing it out for the reader, not so much to be a direct personal reply.
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Post by venge on Aug 3, 2018 4:27:16 GMT -6
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A literal interpretation does not make sense in that case, so there must be a different way to interpret it.