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Post by venge on Jul 28, 2018 15:31:08 GMT -6
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jul 28, 2018 16:02:11 GMT -6
Amen and it fits with the patterns of seas, waters, etc that are really about peoples. BUT at the same time, I do believe the physical aspects of the actual planet with increasing earthquakes in frequency & intensity does correspond to the struggle of the current kingdoms grasping to maintain their reign on this earth until that dreadful Day, where they will be crushed...
44“In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever. 45“Inasmuch as you saw that a stone was cut out of the mountain without hands and that it crushed the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold, the great God has made known to the king what will take place in the future
oh, look a mountain analogy..
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Post by Natalie on Jul 29, 2018 13:20:43 GMT -6
Do you have a source or other Scripture to prove that what you say is true? I know that Israel is referenced as a female and considered a harlot by running after foreign gods (the book of Hosea), but where does it show that earthquakes weren't literal? None of the verses you quoted sound figurative to me without reading meaning into them.
I think it's an interesting thing to think of; however, I have no problem seeing it as a literal earthquake. And just upfront, I am assuming that I take Revelation more literally than you two do, but I'll consider that much may also have a figurative interpretation. Maybe it's both.
Right now there are volcanoes that were "sleeping" or "extinct" that are now waking up. What would happen if earthquakes and volcanoes around the world went off all at once? I'm not talking about little spews of ash, but major eruptions. Or the whole ring of fire at once? (not sure if that's possible, but with God if could be) Would it spew enough ash in the air to make the sun look like it was wearing sackcloth? the moon like blood? (I've seen wildfires do it) Would that not make the earth shake and totter? Sure, it could be spiritual, because, yes, it will be a period of great spiritual darkness, but I think it very well could also be literal.
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Post by Natalie on Jul 29, 2018 13:43:09 GMT -6
Isaiah 2:19 They shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, from the terror of the LORD and the glory of His majesty, when He arises to shake the earth mightily. Compare that with Rev 6:12-17
Isaiah 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth will move out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts and in the day of His fierce anger.
Hebrews 12:26 ...but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven."
Sure sounds like something extremely physical is coming.
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Post by venge on Jul 30, 2018 12:20:48 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2018 12:40:19 GMT -6
Isaiah 2:19 They shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, from the terror of the LORD and the glory of His majesty, when He arises to shake the earth mightily. Compare that with Rev 6:12-17 Isaiah 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth will move out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts and in the day of His fierce anger. Hebrews 12:26 ...but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven." Sure sounds like something extremely physical is coming. That's my view, too. I see absolutely no reason, why to spiritualize the clear meaning of that verses. The OT is full of physical and astronomical calamities. Guess, no one here would place the legendary pharao events in the realm of spiritual judgements.....
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Post by venge on Jul 30, 2018 13:10:29 GMT -6
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Post by Natalie on Jul 30, 2018 17:07:10 GMT -6
I connect Isaiah 24:20 back with verses 5 and 6
"The earth is also defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore the curse has devoured the earth..."
Because of the sins of mankind the earth is under a curse, under the weight of transgression, defiled.
How do you determine when something is not literal?
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Post by fitz on Jul 30, 2018 19:19:12 GMT -6
I always like to reference Matthew 24. The disciples had asked Jesus regarding the signs of the end of the age and His coming and Jesus gave them a list of signs that were literal, physical signs, including actual 'earthquakes in divers places". These events are to occur within the framework and timing the book of Revelation spans. So I would expect many of the calamities described in Revelation to fulfill the prophecy Jesus gave His disciples in Matthew. Earthquakes included.
Most of us in the pre-trib camp have always felt that when you begin to spiritualize too many scriptures, it becomes a slippery slope where everyone can interpret scripture according to their own particular bent.
I saw an excellent article regarding this recently...I'll try to find that...but the gist was, comparing denominations that spiritualize much of scripture compared to denominations that take a more literal interpretation. What was found regarding the prophetic scriptures is that the denominations that heavily spiritualize are all over the map. 10 denominations, 10 different interpretations. Whereas the vast majority of denominations that take the literal approach have astonishingly similar interpretations. And that's exactly what I would expect the Lord to expect of His church. That we rightly divide the word and largely agree on matters of doctrine, prophecy, etc. Unfortunately, that is not the case. The church is splintered.
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Post by fitz on Jul 30, 2018 19:32:02 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2018 2:36:10 GMT -6
That's my view, too. I see absolutely no reason, why to spiritualize the clear meaning of that verses. The OT is full of physical and astronomical calamities. Guess, no one here would place the legendary pharao events only in the realm of spiritual judgements..... Not sure if your question was serious or sarcastic. I would say both. Physical but spiritual implications for Revelation. River of blood killing fish. Hail. Frogs are all symbolic of other things. What question.....?? I did never ask a question here....
I only referred to the verses, Natalie quoted.
Maybe I did not make the point clear enough, sorry for that. Written discussions are sometimes not easy...
And yes, there may be also some non literal fulfilment or implication, I always use to point the people they should consider this possibility as well as a literal fulfilment. IMO many people ignore the possibility of physical/literal fulfilments. But this depends strongly on the persons view..... BTW: the article, fitz linked above, is very helpful.
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Post by venge on Jul 31, 2018 4:59:11 GMT -6
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Post by Natalie on Jul 31, 2018 10:32:56 GMT -6
But where does it stop? If you say God shaking the earth (through earthquakes) is not really what it means, mountains aren't really mountains, etc, soon you can spiritualize everything and get a whole different God and Bible. How do you know when to spiritualize things?
Did you read the article Fitz linked?
Obviously there are times when things aren't to be taken literally, but those things are explained within the text. For example, in Daniel he has the vision of the ram and the goat. It is explained to him what those represent. John sees things and is told what they are.
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Post by venge on Jul 31, 2018 13:29:16 GMT -6
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Post by Natalie on Jul 31, 2018 20:10:54 GMT -6
I think there are creatures in the spiritual realm that look nothing like anything we have seen (like the four around the throne). I think John tries to do his best to describe what he sees. It's why he uses the word "like" when describing what he is seeing. They are "like horses prepared for battle"...but they are not horses. "They had tails like scorpions" but aren't scorpions. I believe they are something from the spiritual realm that God releases to carry out His punishment on the wicked.
Yes, I believe there is a bottomless pit somewhere in the spiritual realm that will be opened and things will be able to be visible in the physical realm.
I do also admit that I could be wrong, but taken literally, that's how I see it.
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