|
|
Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jul 14, 2018 14:15:35 GMT -6
Well...here we are, mid summer 2018...we are a few weeks past the 40th week mark since the great Rev 12 Sign. I am recalling my intensity that I had last year at this time: major insomnia, spending hours here, catching up on all who had something to say, and even starting to post stuff. End times had my attention. I held out at arm's length that the birth of jupiter meant the rapture would happen at or near that time, but still during those few days before and after Spet 23rd, I made a crick in my neck from looking up.
Then regrouped my enthusiasm as fall passed along. I started to dig into what other's were saying and deciding if I agreed or not. After all, no man can or should have it 100% accurate...the prophecies, I mean.
Hence the term Marriage Supper of the Bridegroom and His Bride. This term is used quite a bit. Recalling Rev 12 1 & 2, we have this:
1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
and skipping a few verses we have this:
5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Man-child...not Woman-child...I know there is a thread on this somewhere and some member likely already started a thread like this. So if there is, link it for me.
Back to topic: Many have said this Rev 12 sign was to indicate the rapture as we watched Jupiter go where he did after leaving Virgo..and the WOman was Israel, having given birth to Jesus, and we entered the Church age..but were we ever not in this church age? I recall Hebrews 11 and all the things where Faith was counted as Righteous..
I was reminded of some verses that have to do with this; How will God accomplish his Desire?
Answer: Clean & Restore his Creation (Eph 5:24-28)
His desire is that all be saved, all come to faith, all kneel and bow..etc..
Let's look at Eph 5:24-28
24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
In these verses, Paul is referring to the Church as a 'she.' I will add more of this context:
24But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,
26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.
28So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself;
Now, let's go to Rev 12 again...particularly this verse:
6Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
And this verse from Rev 19:
7“Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.” This verse is a song sung AFTER the destruction of the Harlot..
So what are we looking at then? Many claim that the woman in 12 is Israel, but on more than one occasion I have read prophecy scholars say that the Church is the Bride of Christ. And bring in all the metaphors of the jewish wedding to back this up. Dual prophecy perhaps? But many thought the 'birth' of jupiter/man-child was to represent the rapture...
I am tending to think it had noting to do with rapture but with the timing of it in the Fall and saying to those watching, We are leaving the Pentacost and entering into Tabernacles...prepare you heart and be ready to Tabernacle with the Lord...burn off our idols, our ways, our religions, repent and follow Him! Easy said, what does it look like in real life? That is for each of us to seek Him for that answer. Tells others, Seek Him Follow Him...not the latest published book by a reknowned pastor..but get your affairs strait with Him! In your mind and your heart! The Pharisees were so religiously/tradition-minded and outward appearance driven that could not SEE Christ or what He was saying in their day...don't we have some of the same things in some of our churches today?
See, many have written books, made videos, posted in the forums, and all seem to get things part way correct in determining what prophecy is for what group or whatever... The one thing question I have is this:
This so called Church age ending at the rapture and starting another age where Israel is dealt with... I dont know if I see it that way anymore. God is not going to change the rules as to get into heaven..It has been. and is. and will be by Faith in Him, Jesus, not by law, but by faith in the fulfillment of the law...so the church metaphor still is or will be in existence even after the bond-servant/first fruits are sealed, no? I mean, there are those who come out of the great trib in faith, correct? so how is the Church "out of here" when the "church" is still being restored/built/grown out of the tribulation? Sounds like God is still operating in a church way...
Revelation starts out with some serious accusations by Jesus in regards to His Church does He not? Why can't the Woman in Rev 12 be the so called Church that He will judge and set right at His Coming? Who is in charge of His Gospel? the church, right? What has been going on with all our churches all over? Lack of unity, works-laden salvation speak, lack of kingdom teaching (Jesus' gospel when He walked the earth was much to do about the Kingdom of God), false teachings, prosperity preaching...etc etc...
If the Church is a SHE, that has quite the metaphoric implications for many of these unfulfilled prophecies... God did this in the beginning:
18Then the LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.”
and Jesus said this: (John 15) "The Helper will come--the Spirit, who reveals the truth about God and who comes from the Father. I will send him to you from the Father, and he will speak about me.
I am not suggesting the Holy Spirit is female, because clearly Jesus says it is a he, but rather, the "flesh" of man, that rib so to speak
23The man said,
“This is now bone of my bones,
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.” this helper was the one first deceived, first tempted and believed the lie, and Adam was held into account for this. Eve acting on her flesh, her desire, her ways, her manipulation of Adam..these man-made religions, where doctrine is added to or things of truth ignored..this is the She, the Woman, the very fleshly thing that He/Jesus will destroy with the breath of is mouth..
then His Wife will be ready for that Marriage Supper, the great Tabernacle! Maranatha!!
|
|
|
|
Post by venge on Jul 15, 2018 16:24:05 GMT -6
Well...here we are, mid summer 2018...we are a few weeks past the 40th week mark since the great Rev 12 Sign. I am recalling my intensity that I had last year at this time: major insomnia, spending hours here, catching up on all who had something to say, and even starting to post stuff. End times had my attention. I held out at arm's length that the birth of jupiter meant the rapture would happen at or near that time, but still during those few days before and after Spet 23rd, I made a crick in my neck from looking up. Then regrouped my enthusiasm as fall passed along. I started to dig into what other's were saying and deciding if I agreed or not. After all, no man can or should have it 100% accurate...the prophecies, I mean. Hence the term Marriage Supper of the Bridegroom and His Bride. This term is used quite a bit. Recalling Rev 12 1 & 2, we have this: 1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.and skipping a few verses we have this:
5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Man-child...not Woman-child...I know there is a thread on this somewhere and some member likely already started a thread like this. So if there is, link it for me. Back to topic: Many have said this Rev 12 sign was to indicate the rapture as we watched Jupiter go where he did after leaving Virgo..and the WOman was Israel, having given birth to Jesus, and we entered the Church age..but were we ever not in this church age? I recall Hebrews 11 and all the things where Faith was counted as Righteous.. I was reminded of some verses that have to do with this; How will God accomplish his Desire? Answer: Clean & Restore his Creation (Eph 5:24-28)
His desire is that all be saved, all come to faith, all kneel and bow..etc.. Let's look at Eph 5:24-28 24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.In these verses, Paul is referring to the Church as a 'she.' I will add more of this context :
24But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,
26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.
28So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself;
Now, let's go to Rev 12 again...particularly this verse: 6Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
And this verse from Rev 19: 7“Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.” This verse is a song sung AFTER the destruction of the Harlot.. So what are we looking at then? Many claim that the woman in 12 is Israel, but on more than one occasion I have read prophecy scholars say that the Church is the Bride of Christ. And bring in all the metaphors of the jewish wedding to back this up. Dual prophecy perhaps? But many thought the 'birth' of jupiter/man-child was to represent the rapture... I am tending to think it had noting to do with rapture but with the timing of it in the Fall and saying to those watching, We are leaving the Pentacost and entering into Tabernacles...prepare you heart and be ready to Tabernacle with the Lord...burn off our idols, our ways, our religions, repent and follow Him! Easy said, what does it look like in real life? That is for each of us to seek Him for that answer. Tells others, Seek Him Follow Him...not the latest published book by a reknowned pastor..but get your affairs strait with Him! In your mind and your heart! The Pharisees were so religiously/tradition-minded and outward appearance driven that could not SEE Christ or what He was saying in their day...don't we have some of the same things in some of our churches today? See, many have written books, made videos, posted in the forums, and all seem to get things part way correct in determining what prophecy is for what group or whatever... The one thing question I have is this: This so called Church age ending at the rapture and starting another age where Israel is dealt with... I dont know if I see it that way anymore. God is not going to change the rules as to get into heaven..It has been. and is. and will be by Faith in Him, Jesus, not by law, but by faith in the fulfillment of the law...so the church metaphor still is or will be in existence even after the bond-servant/first fruits are sealed, no? I mean, there are those who come out of the great trib in faith, correct? so how is the Church "out of here" when the "church" is still being restored/built/grown out of the tribulation? Sounds like God is still operating in a church way... Revelation starts out with some serious accusations by Jesus in regards to His Church does He not? Why can't the Woman in Rev 12 be the so called Church that He will judge and set right at His Coming? Who is in charge of His Gospel? the church, right? What has been going on with all our churches all over? Lack of unity, works-laden salvation speak, lack of kingdom teaching (Jesus' gospel when He walked the earth was much to do about the Kingdom of God), false teachings, prosperity preaching...etc etc... If the Church is a SHE, that has quite the metaphoric implications for many of these unfulfilled prophecies... God did this in the beginning: 18Then the LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.” and Jesus said this: (John 15) "The Helper will come--the Spirit, who reveals the truth about God and who comes from the Father. I will send him to you from the Father, and he will speak about me. I am not suggesting the Holy Spirit is female, because clearly Jesus says it is a he, but rather, the "flesh" of man, that rib so to speak 23The man said,
“This is now bone of my bones,
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.” this helper was the one first deceived, first tempted and believed the lie, and Adam was held into account for this. Eve acting on her flesh, her desire, her ways, her manipulation of Adam..these man-made religions, where doctrine is added to or things of truth ignored..this is the She, the Woman, the very fleshly thing that He/Jesus will destroy with the breath of is mouth.. then His Wife will be ready for that Marriage Supper, the great Tabernacle! Maranatha!! A few replies in my typical fashion  I too sometimes find myself not as strong in areas overtime and when I see it I become focused again. The flesh tries to pull us away from the word, thoughts of the word, glorifying God and such.... Continue the race for the prize is worth it Not to offend here, I have yet to buy into the Rev 12 sign as a literal sign in outer space with Jupiter etc....Genesis and Exodus are very specific who the sun, moon, stars are. The dragon is identified as Satan and I know some here have stated looking after signs that are symbolic of the zodiac to which I’d say are Satanic in nature and should be cast out. You only need the Bible. Not star charts, telescopes or ridiculous mathematical equations to understand the word. Going the other way was not what Christ preached. I say this not to Barbie, but other readers. You only need 1 book for answers. You looking elsewhere are doing 2 things: The first is you’re too lazy to read the entire Bible over and over to gain an understanding and to be spiritually awake. The second is like it. The second is that you were looking outside the Bible to which is something the flash is pointing you to do. Do you trust him to flush or do you trust in the spirit? I suggest everyone pray on that. Is the woman in the church or is the woman Israel? Another question that has been thought through the ages. So many commentators, Bloggers, Pundits, preachers, and others have made so many conclusions on this simple thing. Again as I said above I would point you to Genesis and exodus for answers. I would not say that Israel is the church because which church are we talking about? How did the seven churches most have issues. I would say we were talking about Israel in the way that God wants Israel to be once she is pure and covered with a white garment and her loins are girded in gold. That’s not to say the physical manifestation of Israel today in 2018. The woman with the Moon under her feet in the sun over her and the 12 stars is clearly defined in those two books of the Bible. And she is Israel who brought forth the manchild to which is Christ. If you can’t find the exact chapter verse in those two books I would be happy to help you with that. For some reason, Unbeknownst to me, I continually here in churches and websites that it is the church. It seems that people assume that because that’s what they want to believe, but is that what Scripture says? We want many things being human beings send I have everything our way going into our own inclination and then reasoning in our own minds that this is what God wants for us. This is the same thing the Jews did and God told profits to tell the same Jews that they were wrong this is not coming from him and that they would be punished. I would caution people, and say study study study and then study some more. They will say how do I know when they are commentators and say it’s the church. I would reply there commentators say otherwise and provide adequate scripture to back it up but knowing that, each person is to search the Scriptures themselves to gain knowledge for themselves. I would not ever rely on a commentator as the sole example and factual truth of what the word of God says. I would use prayer and the Holy Spirit to discern what the word of God says and use commentators as a means to gauge understanding from different positions but not as the only factual interpretation. |
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Jul 15, 2018 17:56:10 GMT -6
Satan has done a great job in corrupting the things that God created. A Christian interested in astronomy is accused of dabbling in astrology. Very different things. The Psalm 19:1-3
The heavens declare the glory of God;
And the firmament shows His handiwork.
Day unto day utters speech,
And night unto night reveals knowledge.
There is no speech nor language
Where their voice is not heard.
Why couldn't God create a sign in the heavens and then record it for us in Rev 12:1-2? I think it's a bit condescending to call me too lazy to read His word over and over. It's what I've been doing since He got my attention 7 years ago. It's why I agreed to be a moderator here; because I love His Word, want to discuss it and defend it. I'm not looking for anything outside His Word. His Word says there was a great sign in the heavens. Why shouldn't we be able to see it? God's Word says it is there in the sun, stars, and moon.
|
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Jul 16, 2018 1:56:24 GMT -6
Question 1: Who named the stars?
Question 2: Are there specific constellations named in the Bible?
|
|
|
|
Post by fitz on Jul 16, 2018 5:00:33 GMT -6
Job 38...
31 “Can you direct the movement of the stars—
binding the cluster of the Pleiades
or loosening the cords of Orion?
32 Can you direct the constellations through the seasons
or guide the Bear with her cubs across the heavens?
33 Do you know the laws of the universe?
Can you use them to regulate the earth?
Psalm 8:3
3 When I look at the night sky and see the work of your fingers—
the moon and the stars you set in place—
Isaiah 40:26
Look up into the heavens. Who created all the stars? He brings them out like an army, one after another, calling each by its name. Because of his great power and incomparable strength, not a single one is missing.
Amos 5:8
It is the Lord who created the stars, the Pleiades and Orion. He turns darkness into morning and day into night. He draws up water from the oceans and pours it down as rain on the land. The Lord is his name!
Luke 21:25
“And there will be strange signs in the sun, moon, and stars. And here on earth the nations will be in turmoil, perplexed by the roaring seas and strange tides. 26 People will be terrified at what they see coming upon the earth, for the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then everyone will see the Son of Man[e] coming on a cloud with power and great glory.[f] 28 So when all these things begin to happen, stand and look up, for your salvation is near!”
|
|
|
|
Post by mike on Jul 16, 2018 6:36:24 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl which version translates Eph 5:25 as HER as the YLT and KJV show IT?
|
|
|
|
Post by venge on Jul 16, 2018 6:52:57 GMT -6
Satan has done a great job in corrupting the things that God created. A Christian interested in astronomy is accused of dabbling in astrology. Very different things. The Psalm 19:1-3 The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows His handiwork. Day unto day utters speech, And night unto night reveals knowledge. There is no speech nor language Where their voice is not heard. Why couldn't God create a sign in the heavens and then record it for us in Rev 12:1-2? I think it's a bit condescending to call me too lazy to read His word over and over. It's what I've been doing since He got my attention 7 years ago. It's why I agreed to be a moderator here; because I love His Word, want to discuss it and defend it. I'm not looking for anything outside His Word. His Word says there was a great sign in the heavens. Why shouldn't we be able to see it? God's Word says it is there in the sun, stars, and moon. Barbie, I am not calling you lazy. I was using that sentence to describe people that are not familiar with God’s word and instead of searching scripture, they search the Internet for non scriptural answers. I know most here do read as I can tell with their words and subject matter though some of us have differences in opinion. |
|
|
|
Post by venge on Jul 16, 2018 6:56:15 GMT -6
Question 1: Who named the stars? Question 2: Are there specific constellations named in the Bible? 1. Don’t recall a person making them though ancient Sumerian culture which predates most if not all known civilizations did have names for them. 2. Of course. Pleiades, Orion to name two. I am still not sold on a Cosmic planetary movement as a sign. Does not feel the spirit leads me that way. I don’t get anything from scripture to suggest it either. I don’t take that sign to be literal, but spiritual |
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Jul 16, 2018 7:52:38 GMT -6
venge , My name is Natalie.  Reread your original comment. You were directing your words at other readers. Wouldn't that include me? Look up Psalm 147:4 and Is 40:26 God named them. Calls constellations by name in Job. I don't know if He actually gave them those names or they are from some culture, but He clearly refers to constellations by name. There is nothing wrong with looking at the stars and calling the constellations by name. Could it be possible that Rev is literal and spiritual? I have no problem seeing it as Israel and the Messiah who then ascends to heaven. But it's also literal. A sign in the sun, moon, and stars. Have you looked at the alignment? I challenge you to find some other point in history where things were aligned just as spoken of in Rev 12:1-2  You are free to believe that it is not literal. However, we are also free to believe it is literal. It is not Satanic, it is not astrology, it does not go against God's word. He named the stars, He put them in place, and He said there would be signs in the heavens even describing one of them.
|
|
|
|
Post by stormyknight on Jul 16, 2018 9:06:49 GMT -6
mike, I'll let Barbio answer your question, but I noticed that the word used for 'her', 'αὐτῆς (autēs)', in Eph. 5:25, is a personal/possessive pronoun which can mean she, he, it, they, or them, but, it is a feminine pronoun, so more often than not, it would be 'her'. Similar to 'la' in spanish? Like ' La Hermana = my sister' or ' Los Hermanos = my brothers'.
Also, I really like the definition of the word used in Luke 21:25 for 'signs', 'σημεῖα (sēmeia)' or 4592 sēmeíon – a sign (typically miraculous), given especially to confirm, corroborate or authenticate.
mike, you've opened up a whole new avenue for me with Bible Hub! I was pretty stubborn using just 'the Blue Letter Bible' online. Don't know why I didn't branch out.
|
|
|
|
Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jul 16, 2018 10:54:59 GMT -6
thanks stormyknight for that assist. mike the 'her' verses are from the NASV.. I have this version of the Bible because of Precept Ministries, which uses that translation. Most of my notes are in this Bible, so I use it a lot in my postings. I know others say or have their favorites, this one happens to be my workhorse version. Incidently, the timelines promoted in this NAS are in support of a pre-trib rapture, 7 year trib/wrath, 70th week being fulfilled in this 7 year timeframe, mid point A/C abomination, end of Church age etc etc.. I set those opinions on my virtual coffee table and see if when I read the Scriptures I see it the same way or not. I will admit my initial post needs lots of editing. I dont pre-write in a pdf, I just go off the cuff and try not to hit a delete key were I would lose all my writing. In sharing with a friend what I wrote, she had some questions and in rereading my post I could make my point a little more clear. Let me step back and give a summary. Revelation is both A) a literal physical vision and B) a literal physical vision that has many elements that are Spiritual, metaphorical & full of God's patterns, ways, laws, character, etc. and full of metaphors that describe Man. Do we agree on that? The challenge is to "see" or discern or separate what is literal physical (namely things of the flesh, tangible earthly events) and what is literal spiritual metaphor (what Jesus is showing us Spiritually, the names, players, peoples, groups, nations, seas, water, earth dwellers, etc etc ) What has been landing on me to start this thread really starts with Genesis. The Woman was created by Flesh, bone of Adam's bones, Flesh of his flesh.. Adam on the other hand was made from the dust of the earth and had life Breathed into him. The Woman came from his rib. I find this no accident by God, why did he not use a part of Adam's skull? or his hand? I mean, she was to be his helper, so a long bone would have been handy, or take some his brain matter.. BUT, no, God took from his rib, which the part of the body that protect our lungs (breath/spirit?) and our heart (soul?desire?character?). Jesus was pierced thru the rib cage to the heart. I find this super significant to "undoing" what Eve did. She is the one whom the serpent tempted first, not Adam. I believe this key event and who ate the apple first sets up the whole bible with this woman character having deep meaning, and an understanding what the "Woman" represents. Women are referred to in the Bible as: virgins, wives, widows, harlots, concubines, adulteresses, maids, bridesmaids and brides, to name a few..I believe when we look to all the situations in the Bible where these names of woman are used, we will find a deeper, spiritual meaning into man's desire of the flesh leading him away from God. That is my nutshell stance. This is not sexism..This is God's pattern set from the beginning of creation. Why did He not create woman from the dust of the earth? That is going to be my first question when I get to heaven.. So in this viewpoint, the Woman of Rev 12 is more than representing "Israel" . We seem to all see the woman as the constellation Virgo. This Virgin woman to me is one that is not defiled. She is not following the desire of her flesh,,,or IS she? She can't help it because it is by her design that she operates by her "flesh"..not by faith. I will go even so far as to say our beloved jewish brethren still believe and are blinded that the Law is the atonement. That are still operating in the old fleshly covenant, for we know there is a New Covenant, Jesus. the Man-child. It has been pointed out that to me that all suffer the sin of the First Adam, so we have salvation thru the 2nd Adam. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.Eve was weak, she disobeyed. The Law was established later down the road with Moses, only to show how weak the Law is for man. But the SPIRIT, ah glorious Breath of Truth! that God overcame the weakness of the flesh and its sinful nature, thru His Death on the cross..ok, we all know the rest of the story. That Born Again, that renewed Man, the Man-child of God! The very creation He made with the Breath of His mouth is restored by the Holy Spirit, Praise Jesus! yet, here we are, currently in unglorified, shamed bodies of flesh, that "woman". Before the fall she was naked and unashamed. Revelation is showing to me this overcoming of the "flesh" and "ashamed" state of man will manifest in the New Linen we will receive upon the raptures/harvests into His Kingdom. When the "woman" is completely cleansed, by the blood of the final harvest, the Winepress, she will be able to wash clean her garments, her filthy rags, and be ready for that Marriage Supper, a Bride, THE Eve, as Adam called her his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living (NIV). presented without blemish, and unashamed. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2018 11:25:37 GMT -6
Just a sidenote: Here is a very interesting and profound comment on the topic "The raptures in the book of Revelation".
This comment also touches the symbols of Rev 12 (search for "The Symbols Of Revelation 12" within the linked comment) and of course the famous and widely debated woman. Maybe this can shed some more light on some of the discussed topics of this thread.
|
|
|
|
Post by stormyknight on Jul 16, 2018 11:54:59 GMT -6
This is one of many reasons why I know the Judeo-Christian bible is truth. One can dig deeper and deeper in to the meanings and find more truth and more profound meanings to verses. Try that with any other religious writings and I guarantee you will hit a stonewall, meaning; you will find something that doesn't jive with something else and therefore make the whole writing questionable. Not so with the Bible. If you have to bend a verse to make it fit somewhere else, then you are missing it's meaning. But with diligence and an open mind, and the help of the Holy Spirit, you can find the truth.
barbiosheepgirl, you have perhaps laid before us a very succulent piece of filet mignon. I for one, will savor every bite. I have to admit that I have always thought of the "Church" as feminine, just as I still can't shake the belief that the Harlot riding the dragon is the Catholic Church and her daughters are all the denominations that have come out of her. I put the 'male child' thing of Rev. 12 on the back burner for the time being because I just didn't know why it could be both Jesus and the Church. There are more than a few scriptures that I have thought, 'well, our Heavenly Father will explain it someday'. |
|
|
|
Post by venge on Jul 16, 2018 16:43:00 GMT -6
venge , My name is Natalie. Reread your original comment. You were directing your words at other readers. Wouldn't that include me? Look up Psalm 147:4 and Is 40:26 God named them. Calls constellations by name in Job. I don't know if He actually gave them those names or they are from some culture, but He clearly refers to constellations by name. There is nothing wrong with looking at the stars and calling the constellations by name. Could it be possible that Rev is literal and spiritual? I have no problem seeing it as Israel and the Messiah who then ascends to heaven. But it's also literal. A sign in the sun, moon, and stars. Have you looked at the alignment? I challenge you to find some other point in history where things were aligned just as spoken of in Rev 12:1-2 You are free to believe that it is not literal. However, we are also free to believe it is literal. It is not Satanic, it is not astrology, it does not go against God's word. He named the stars, He put them in place, and He said there would be signs in the heavens even describing one of them. Natalie, I wouldn’t want you to put all your eggs into one basket. I know you feel sure about it, but many people over the last 2k years have said Aha! And they point to something saying it’s a sign. I’m not discounting it as 100% fallible. I’m just not sold on it. I question everything on the net that I don’t see from the Bible. Does the Bible talk about the sun, moon, stars and some constellations....yes. Does it name em all? No. Does it need to? Nope. Christ’s birth was a sign right? If the women giving birth is in literal heaven, and a dragon is another sign in heaven? Is the beast from the sea with the horn‘s and the seven heads also in heaven?, and as we continue reading we see the Christ is born with the Ironrod. Is this also in heaven? And then he is caught up to heaven to escape the beast that’s about to swallow him. Is it also in heaven? Because to me it appears that the woman is israel gives birth to the Messiah and that the beast with seven heads and 10 horns at the time was the Roman empire. That’s not a sign in heaven that’s a sign on planet earth. Am I not understanding the logic in the YouTube videos on this subject? I understand the constellations in the alignment and where the planets all meet. But it matters not to me because all of this happened almost 2000 years ago. I view Rev 12:1-5 as the past. Don’t you? |
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Jul 16, 2018 18:01:30 GMT -6
I see it as representing something that physically happened 2000 years ago just as you described because it is used to explain the woman that flees into the wilderness. (It's not the church.) However, I also believe that John was shown a literal sign in the heavens involving the sun, moon, and stars. I don't think anything John was shown once he was called up was in the past. It's a revelation about the time of the end. I don't think he was shown a vision of Mary giving birth. And yes, I think the dragon is Satan (Rev 12:9) who tried to stop the birth of the Messiah through Herod and others. I also think that it will be a sign in the heavens. However, there are not the details that are described in the sign of the woman. Many have guessed as to what the sign will be. Maybe we will somehow see Satan cast down? I have no idea.
I'm leaving it at that...agreeing to disagree.
|
|
Reread your original comment. You were directing your words at other readers. Wouldn't that include me?