|
|
Post by mike on Jul 3, 2018 10:49:41 GMT -6
Going about my normal routine of thinking, thinking and more thinking (a few days back). Wondering about what all the signs mean and how they relate to current events and just basically praying the Lord's Prayer - "thy kingdom come, thy will be done..." and I was reminded of the verse below "the kingdom of God is within you". I hesitated with an "what do you mean by that Lord? It is within but we await your return and establishment of your kingdom"...
So I went to Luke 17 to read the passage and ensure I have it in context and although this is (in my opinion) a debated area of scripture as when it is applicable, what really struck me was the way the script is written in plural in a few places.
Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see [it]. 23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after [them], nor follow [them]. 24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one [part] under heaven, shineth unto the other [part] under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. 25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. 26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together.
What are the "days" being referred to here? I figured I would open this up for others to chime in. I have some opinions
* Days = death, burial, resurrection, ascention
* Days = second coming and 1000 yr reign
but I also want to hear what others have studied and searched on this as well if at all. GO!
|
|
|
|
Post by sesquipedalian on Jul 4, 2018 0:28:40 GMT -6
Interesting approach to this passage. A thought occurred to me: could "the days of the Son of man" mean the church age?
So one could interpret it to mean the days will come when those on Earth will desire to see a Christian, but will not see one. And in the days of Noah, things proceeded as they always had until Noah boarded the Ark, and then came the flood. Similarly, in the days of Lot, things proceeded normally until Lot left, and then came destruction.
|
|
|
|
Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jul 4, 2018 13:02:34 GMT -6
mike you know I will take a bite out of this...lol... Here is from the NAS where most of my notes are.. 22And He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23“They will say to you, ‘Look there! Look here!’ Do not go away, and do not run after them. 24“For just like the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day. The question I have is: Who is Jesus addressing in his reply here? Someone who longs to see the days, but will not see it... Why would they not see it? Jesus was standing right in the midst of the pharisees and said: “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; 21nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”I will share a study that someone has been continuing elsewhere and this very topic has been addressed multiple times: And I believe this is why the Jesus said those who long to 'see' will not see because He knows that many to this day struggle with their flesh (idols of their heart, how they view others, how they want to be perceived etc etc ) and are not walking in faith that GOD can Himself teach a soul to hear him, refine him, discipline like a Loving father, etc etc. That He Himself can do a work within each one of us thru our faith. Not thru a fig leaf covering. Remember @ mike you and I talked briefly in a thread that perhaps the rapture is not what we think it is, or will happen the way we think it is. Yes we will be changed in a twinkling of an eye, but what are the bond-servants? Is there a possibility that the first fruits enter into the Kingdom then a portion of them are commissioned to witness to the world, moving about like Philip? Moving about like Christ? THere must be something Godly magical that would cause the enemy to try and copy it, hence these warnings: 5And Jesus began to say to them, “See to it that no one misleads you. 6“Many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He!’ and will mislead many.And we see in Hebrews Ch 11 the whole cloud of witnesses teaching/ along with Exekiel 44 where there is the out court where work is done, but rest within the inner court 17“It shall be that when they enter at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with linen garments; and wool shall not be on them while they are ministering in the gates of the inner court and in the house. 18“Linen turbans shall be on their heads and linen undergarments shall be on their loins; they shall not gird themselves with anything which makes them sweat. 19“When they go out into the outer court, into the outer court to the people, they shall put off their garments in which they have been ministering and lay them in the holy chambers; then they shall put on other garments so that they will not transmit holiness to the people with their garments.
In revelation we see this: 1Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, “Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. 2“Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months.
|
|
|
|
Post by MikeTaft on Jul 4, 2018 17:11:52 GMT -6
Excellent observation mike. The thing is we are so expectant for a coming kingdom that is already present via the Spirit. Just as Barb has presented, there is a physical kingdom. The Stone Kingdom (Daniel’ Statue vision) that will crush all the kingdoms connected to Mystery Babylon. There are a few of us that believe we are seeing that start to happen now. Linking back to the original Sep. 23rd sign. I don’t believe that events will play exactly out as mainstream Christians preach. God’s grace goes much farther than what us humans have speculated. It makes the only work needed to be done on the cross so much more amazingly, beautifully, wonderfully significant. What we have to understand is where the Kingdom of God is spiritually (in each on of us via the Holy Spirit) which can physically manifest through us and the Kingdom of God being established on earth physically via the 2nd Advent a.k.a. the return of our Lord and King Jesus Christ for a millennial reign and beyond. Many who have read the Bible have taken Revelation so literal I think they have lost sight of the spiritual aspect of the Kingdom and the spiritual players involved now and in the soon future. |
|
|
|
Post by venge on Jul 5, 2018 18:38:42 GMT -6
Excellent observation mike. The thing is we are so expectant for a coming kingdom that is already present via the Spirit. Just as Barb has presented, there is a physical kingdom. The Stone Kingdom (Daniel’ Statue vision) that will crush all the kingdoms connected to Mystery Babylon. There are a few of us that believe we are seeing that start to happen now. Linking back to the original Sep. 23rd sign. I don’t believe that events will play exactly out as mainstream Christians preach. God’s grace goes much farther than what us humans have speculated. It makes the only work needed to be done on the cross so much more amazingly, beautifully, wonderfully significant. What we have to understand is where the Kingdom of God is spiritually (in each on of us via the Holy Spirit) which can physically manifest through us and the Kingdom of God being established on earth physically via the 2nd Advent a.k.a. the return of our Lord and King Jesus Christ for a millennial reign and beyond. Many who have read the Bible have taken Revelation so literal I think they have lost sight of the spiritual aspect of the Kingdom and the spiritual players involved now and in the soon future. Mike Taft... Amen! Well said. You are correct saying too many look at Revelation as literal when it is spiritual. Many will never understand that book if they don’t: Pray. Read the entire Bible. Study. And think of it spiritually instead of a horror movie. |
|
|
|
Post by mike on Jul 6, 2018 7:26:28 GMT -6
MikeTaft I am happy to see you posted. I was thinking of you the day I started this thread, you responded the next. God is wonderful. Yes the kingdom has been here 2000 yrs. And we need to (or at least I need to) grab hold of that truth. The kingdom is within me and the King comes soon
|
|
|
|
Post by stormyknight on Jul 6, 2018 14:17:33 GMT -6
I was thinking on history as I was reading the posts in this thread. If you think about it, satan has been trying to put a ... what's the word... a dark twist, throw shade, on God's plan for a long, long time. In many wars throughout history, it was the practice of a lot of the conquering soldiers to rape the women of the conquered. One reason was to put the next generation of that country or people into a sort of chaotic state. Those born of the raping most likely received much humiliation because of their heritage. Some probably even escaped to the conquering country only to be cast out for the same reasons.
But, here we are, Children of God. Not because of nefarious means, but because we chose, through His calling and sealing, to be His children. And when the time comes, we will rise up, literally, and become that which we so desperately want to be now, "The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man," Luke 17:22 I'm sure I'm not the only one, but I ache to be completely changed into the incorruptible that grows "within" right now.
|
|
|
|
Post by grandpaskitzo on Jul 6, 2018 15:33:15 GMT -6
I’m riding in the car at the moment so I can’t post much, but I think it would help to look at the two words ‘see’ in verse 22. Both words are different. One implies a physical seeing and the other not so much.
|
|
|
|
Post by mike on Jul 7, 2018 9:03:18 GMT -6
I’m riding in the car at the moment so I can’t post much, but I think it would help to look at the two words ‘see’ in verse 22. Both words are different. One implies a physical seeing and the other not so much. Intent of the thread GPS is on the plural Days. Perhaps the seeing you're thinking of is both physical and spiritual which could cover 2 events or days? |
|
|
|
Post by davewatchman on Jul 7, 2018 9:26:00 GMT -6
Going about my normal routine of thinking, thinking and more thinking (a few days back). Wondering about what all the signs mean and how they relate to current events and just basically praying the Lord's Prayer - "thy kingdom come, thy will be done..." and I was reminded of the verse below "the kingdom of God is within you". I hesitated with an "what do you mean by that Lord? It is within but we await your return and establishment of your kingdom"... So I went to Luke 17 to read the passage and ensure I have it in context and although this is (in my opinion) a debated area of scripture as when it is applicable, what really struck me was the way the script is written in plural in a few places. Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
but I also want to hear what others have studied and searched on this as well if at all. GO!I saw this thread when it first came out. But i see it as something different Mike. I don't think i should say it here. Or if i can think of a way of watering down my idea of it. Luke17 has a lot on the go, these are like excerpts from other parts of the Q source. But the pharisee scene was for the first century, i don't think it's what we're thinking it is. The pharisees were DEMANDING to know WHEN the Kingdom of God would come. But no sign was given to them. They weren't asking humbly. They needed to humble themselves. There was something big going on between Jesus and the pharisees that was specific to the first century. Their chance at the Kingdom was about to be taken from them and given to a nation that would bear it's fruit. Look at what Barbio said here and then i'll tell you what i think it is: The question I have is: Who is Jesus addressing in his reply here? Someone who longs to see the days, but will not see it... Why would they not see it? Jesus was standing right in the midst of the pharisees and said: “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; 21nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”Sometimes Jesus is speaking to us, but other times He is speaking specifically to certain other people at certain other times and other times He is speaking to just a blind old pharisee. Peter questioned the similar situation in Luke 12: “Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for all?” Look at the various ways that the Greek 1787 "entos" is translated. English Standard Versionnor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.” King James BibleNeither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Contemporary English VersionThere is no use saying, 'Look! Here it is' or 'Look! There it is.' God's kingdom is here with you." International Standard VersionPeople won't be saying, 'Look! Here it is!' or 'There it is!' because now the kingdom of God is among you." - Is in the midst of you.
- Is within you.
- Is here with you.
- Is among you.
And i thought it was curious that in the only two times "entos" is used in the NT, each time Jesus is speaking to the "blind pharisees": Strong's Number G1787 matches the Greek ἐντός (entos), which occurs 2 times in 2 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV Mat 23:26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within <G1787> the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Luk 17:21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within <G1787> you. www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?ot=KJV&strongs=g1787&t=kjv#lexSearchJesus also had used the phrase Kingdom of God in another peculiar way. The kingdom of God has suffered violence: "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. I wonder here if He is using the phrase to refer to the actual members of the Kingdom, the prophets, who had been slain in their service. "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. But something else was going on with the pharisees and the Old time Jewish people of the first century. The Kingdom of God was at hand. The Kingdom of God was dwelling among them and living in their midst. But they had to do more than just observe. The Kingdom of God was not coming through observation. They had to ACT fast and accept their Messiah. But they missed the time of their Visitation and their first century chance at the Kingdom was taken from them. It was right within their grasp, but they let it slip between their fingers. "Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.” hLook what you get when you click on that footnote " h: h21 Or within you, or within your grasp Jesus was telling the pharisees that the Kingdom of God was standing right in front of them, speaking to them, dwelling among them and was everyday in their midst. They could reach out and touch the Kingdom of God. But they were missing it. He was within their grasp but they were not recognizing the times of it. "The time is fulfilled, the Kingdom of God is at hand.What "time" was fulfilled when He said that? The Daniel Nine Time. Until Messiah the Prince. Peaceful Sabbath. |
|
|
|
Post by stormyknight on Jul 8, 2018 8:15:41 GMT -6
I’m riding in the car at the moment so I can’t post much, but I think it would help to look at the two words ‘see’ in verse 22. Both words are different. One implies a physical seeing and the other not so much. I went back and forth over those two words, 'idein' and 'opsesthe', used as 'to see' and 'you will see (it)', and near as I can understand, the first, idein, is to perceive, to see in your mind, like Jesus is telling them there will be a time when you want to imagine what it's like when the Son of Man is here in charge and all is golden. The second word, opsesthe, refers to actually physically seeing something. I understand it like He tells them they will try to perceive it, imagine it, daydream about it(guilty of that myself), but the picture in their mind is not accurate, they won't "see" it, it will be nothing like they/we can imagine. "Let the wicked man forsake his own way and the unrighteous man his own thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that He may have compassion, and to our God, for He will freely pardon. “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts.…" Isaiah 55:7-9
That verse also seems to fit with the scene of the Pharisees. Tradition being a strong trait among the Jews(correct me if I'm wrong), they couldn't see Jesus being the Messiah because they were brought up on the stories of pillars of fire and clouds and a loud booming voice, so they just couldn't fathom that the Man standing there in front of them could be the Son of the Most High God.
The fact that we can see that now is a credit to the Holy Spirit within us as there are multitudes that still do not understand the scriptures and believe that Jesus is the Messiah.
This whole concept gives me a trembling fear that the expectations I have are wrong. That what is coming is nothing like anything we can imagine. It is beyond our scope of perception. But it will be glorious!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2018 9:23:50 GMT -6
Not to derail this, mike , but while scrolling through this thread I was reminded of an fascinating fact that can be applied to the understanding of the scriptures as well. Light can be seen (with the eyes of a scientist) as a wave but also as a stream of particles. Depending on the type of experiment you perform, light shows either the one characteristics or the other. And both views are correct and true, although they seem to contradict each other....! Sounds crazy? This applies IMO also to the Book of Revelation (and many other prophecies and scriptures as well). Some say it must be interpreted literally, some say it must be interpreted spiritually. I am pretty sure, that lots of followers will be surprised how much was and still is to be fulfilled in a spiritual way and on the other hand there will be also a big crowd of followers be surprised to see literal/physical fulfilment of many verses. The bible is a multilayered and multidimensional book we can never grasp in its entirety this side of our existence and I believe that it is part of Gods plan that there are several camps of interpretation. Rant over....go ahead  |
|
|
|
Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jul 8, 2018 20:53:29 GMT -6
AMEN, @stephan
|
|
|
|
Post by mike on Jul 9, 2018 12:46:27 GMT -6
@stephan - any wise insight from you is always welcome my friend! Subject of the thread was about possible multiple days of the Lord. I think the context of other posts here taken together all tie in. The kingdom was here right before the Jews 2000 yrs ago. Could they have received Him, this world would not be as it is today. However that is not the plan as God's plan does not depend on us but we on Him/His (plan). Another debate for another thread for sure! On another note as I was reading earlier 1John 4:17 really jumped out at me. I will not be able to get into much detail on it at this time as I am getting ready to relax poolside on my final 2 days of a much needed vacation but; 17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. Really the first part is what I'm focusing on. This is so loaded for me and verse 18 makes me go hmmmm barbiosheepgirl, but that may come via PM. When we love one another we are most like Him. Even though there is nothing we can do or not do to earn a pass at judgment, why are we permitted to have boldness? |
|
|
|
Post by douwant2go2heaven on Jul 9, 2018 17:14:49 GMT -6
Blessings brother Mike! To answer your question about 1 John 4:17 the reason why we have boldness in the day of judgment is because we are perfected on that very day! John tells us that whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwells in him, and he in God! Thus all of us who have an abiding relationship with God, by our new birth in Jesus Christ, will have BOLDNESS perfected by love to stand on that day! We will shine forth on the day of judgment because we are made ONE with our head! Jesus Christ the head is united with His body on our wedding day that begins on the cloudy day!
The cloudy day is the day of judgment and God says that FEAR will be upon all those who have no boldness! Yes, fear will be upon ALL the inhabitants of the earth! Those who were not made perfect in love so that they might have boldness to STAND on the day of judgment will be in the torments of the Great Tribulation. 2 times in the Old Testament, in Jeremiah and Isaiah, God says that the "Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth." And both passages of scripture are in relation to the judgment of the end times that begin on the day of the LORD aka the cloudy day!
The following verse in 1 John 4:18 states that: "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." All those who are caught up on the cloudy day have nothing to fear! We are perfected forever! Thus while everything else shakes on the day the judgment begins, the body of Christ is able to STAND with BOLDNESS before the throne of God! We are ONE with Messiah! We are CO-heirs with Christ! We have received a kingdom that can't be shaken! Thus our boldness rests in His boldness! For the LORD is our light and our salvation; whom shall we fear? The LORD is the strength of our life; of whom shall we be afraid?
John, who wrote the book of Revelation, is a model of the same boldness we will have when everything transpires on the earth! Not once did John say he was in fear or in torment while recording the events of the end times! Rather he was BOLDLY declaring everything while it was happening before his very eyes! Likewise we also will be BOLD as we judge the world and glory in our King by singing praises to His name for being a just and righteous judge! Just as Revelation 19:1-9 describes for us!
Amen and Hallelujah!
|
|
