|
|
Post by palladin56 on Jun 10, 2018 8:39:19 GMT -6
How can Jesus have been in heaven with the thief and yet still not have ascended to the Father days later?
John 20 KJV 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. Luke 23 KJV 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. |
|
|
|
Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jun 10, 2018 9:38:41 GMT -6
Hey welcome, palladin56Very good question. This makes me think then that there is something to Jesus "descension"...He went there..what did he DO there? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2018 11:33:39 GMT -6
I am not a theological expert but I don't see any contradiction.
The scripture in John is a complete different context. We have a scene before and after his death and resurrection.
Jesus just rose from death and met the woman with his resurrection body:
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father [after rising from death]...
(Brackets and emphasis mine....)
This does not exclude that He met His father in paradise together with the thief.
|
|
|
|
Post by fitz on Jun 10, 2018 12:01:38 GMT -6
Stephan is correct in his explanation comparing these two verses. His dead mortal body didn't limit or prevent Him from being in Paradise during those three days. Also, remember Jesus is God. One of His attributes is Omnipresence and He can be anywhere at any time...at the same time. www.gotquestions.org/God-omnipresent.html |
|
|
|
Post by venge on Jun 10, 2018 15:52:07 GMT -6
Lol bare with me....
If the soul returns to the one who gave it.....
Technically, they both died. Both souls go to heaven. Thief soul stays in heaven, Jesus soul is returned and his body changed incorruptible.
So, yeah....what he said can be true.
|
|
|
|
Post by rstrats on Dec 17, 2018 5:30:15 GMT -6
venge,
re: "If the soul returns to the one who gave it....."
Actually, it's the spirit which returns to the one who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)
|
|
|
|
Post by kjs on Dec 17, 2018 13:11:58 GMT -6
palladin56 There can be several different theories offered -- that could show these statements are not contradictions.... possibly to "closes to truth" is that according to Jewish belief/customs the souls who died went to Abraham's Bosom -- also known as paradise ... Therefore that "first day" -- would see both Jesus and the thief all together in paradise........ As people already pointed out -- one statement is made Pre-death and the other statement is after resurrection (3 days Later)...... So simply based on the simple reading you have a space of three days -- to get everyone together -- wherever they belong.............. with no contradictions
|
|
|
|
Post by hopeful on Dec 24, 2018 11:49:04 GMT -6
Ancient Greek didn't really have punctuation as we know it, so when Jesus is answering the thief it could just as easily be read this way, "Assuredly I say to you this day, you shall be with Me in paradise." Little comma, big difference!
|
|
|
|
Post by fitz on Dec 24, 2018 15:22:02 GMT -6
Ancient Greek didn't really have punctuation as we know it, so when Jesus is answering the thief it could just as easily be read this way, "Assuredly I say to you this day, you shall be with Me in paradise." Little comma, big difference! Point taken, but let's consider...I just checked 20 different commonly used English translations and not one of them put the comma in this place. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. Now, Jesus used this phrase "Verily I say unto thee..." many times. I don't believe there is a single instance of Him saying "Verily I say unto thee today, ..." My .02, GBY |
|
|
|
Post by hopeful on Dec 24, 2018 17:01:08 GMT -6
Hey Fitz, I'm going from memory a little bit. That is my limited understanding about Greek, that they didn't use punctuation as we do today. I haven't pulled out my Greek Bible to double check - and I'm not going to today because I have to make stuffing  . I'd stick around to figure things out but I don't want to get in trouble with my mother! Merry Christmas, everyone! |
|
|
|
Post by fitz on Dec 24, 2018 17:17:52 GMT -6
Hey Fitz, I'm going from memory a little bit. That is my limited understanding about Greek, that they didn't use punctuation as we do today. I haven't pulled out my Greek Bible to double check - and I'm not going to today because I have to make stuffing . I'd stick around to figure things out but I don't want to get in trouble with my mother! Merry Christmas, everyone! Yep, I totally get that. But, what I am saying is all these English bible translators, scholars in ancient Greek and Hebrew, surely know this, yet almost all (if not all) put the comma before "today". Merry Christmas! |
|
|
|
Post by kjs on Dec 27, 2018 15:27:24 GMT -6
Also, Part of the answer may lay in the fact "paradise" is on the eternity time line (which is as near as my limited understanding can grasp -- is no timeline at all -- cause eternity basically means without time)
With both of Jesus answers appearing on the earth Time-Line .......
So the answer to the thief -- is that you will be with me in the eternity time frame -- we will be together
And the answer to the woman -- is I am not of this earth time-line any longer -- so I need X (Jesus used word ascended -- but I think it might need to be reconnected -- but what do I know) - before you can touch me....
|
|
. I'd stick around to figure things out but I don't want to get in trouble with my mother! Merry Christmas, everyone!