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Post by venge on Jun 3, 2018 14:02:59 GMT -6
While in Church today, I came across something that sparked an idea in my head: It made too much sense so I figure I'd write something up and post it for you.
1st Trumpet
The trumpet was an instrument used to sound for war before destruction came. We learn in Ezekiel 33:1-5 that God tells man what to do when the trumpet is sounded and what the sound represents:
God is specific in His command. If God brings his own sword (wrath) upon the earth and the watchman (Believer) see it, the trumpet should be blown.
Anyone (good or bad) that hears the trumpet (aware of an incoming calamity from God) should then repent and change otherwise God's wrath will come to take his life and he will be responsible for it himself. Hearing/or knowing the trumpet coming preparing will save your life.
Trumpets by God are equated to God's judgment.
Fire & Hail
People read of hail and fire mingled with blood, and recall scenes of meteorites descending with strength causing a fire to surround it upon entering earth's atmosphere. But the fire is actually representative of lightning. Fire comes from the Koine Greek word for Pur. It simply means: fire; the heat of the sun, lightning; fig: strife, trials; the eternal fire.
In Exodus 9:23-25 we see the same thing as a shadow of things to come:
And in Verse 29, we see what fire in the sky is.
The fire in the sky is lighting coming down. It may ignite and cause a fire, but the Koine Greek shows the correct interpretation is literally lightning. A large amount of lightning striking the earth rapidly while hail reigns upon the earth destroying trees, grass, beasts, homes etc..
In Ezekiel 21:32, God tells Ezekiel we are the fuel for the fire. Our blood is that fuel.
Those who are wicked, their blood is a sacrifice. Leviticus 6:30 says,
These people who remain after the rapture, are wicked and left behind. Because they cannot enter into the tabernacle of God, they shall be burnt.
We see the warning sign of the trumpet blow. Who listens and who ignores it?
God's judgment is about to be poured on the earth. It comes in the form of meteorites upon the earth. Its purpose is to destroy the wicked on the earth that did not take heed of His warnings.
Lastly, we see 1/3rd of the Trees are burnt and all the green grass is burnt.
People are trees. There are tree's that bear fruit and tree's that do not.
Jeremiah 17:8 says,
Psalms 1:3
1 Chronicles 16:33
Psalm 52:8
1/3rd of human life will be destroyed that believed not in God and his son Jesus Christ. 1/3rd of the trees that never bore fruit.
When we look at the green grass, the verse mentioned all the green grass would be burnt up.
Isaiah 40:6
Isaiah 40:7
Psalm 90:5
2 Kings 19:26
Psalm 129:6
Isaiah 37:27
Matthew 13:30
I will repeat what I said prior:
God's judgment is about to be poured on the earth. It comes in the form of hail upon the earth. Its purpose is to destroy the wicked on the earth that did not take heed of His warnings. The 1/3rd of trees that will die are people that bore no fruit. All the grass that will be burnt up is not people in this instance because the trees are identified, but as Psalm 129 showed, all people left during this time will never grow up. They are devoured spiritually and will never change their wicked ways.
Christ shows in Matthew 13:30, the wheat had been gathered already, these tares/grass/weeds/trees are left to be burned; another way of saying to be destroyed.
I hope you enjoyed my quick lesson on an unliteral way to interpret the 1st Trumpet. If you agree with this interpretation or would like me to look at others, I will study and write something up.
Before I wrote this, I have to be honest: I just assumed it killed trees and vegetation. Now, I am not so sure and I think this is closer to reality. But to each his own! =P I wont be here when it happens haha
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Post by mike on Jun 3, 2018 16:36:40 GMT -6
I like the tree/humanity connection, makes sense
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Post by witness1 on Jun 3, 2018 20:20:56 GMT -6
I also have been thinking that trees are people. I first had this thought back in January when we were looking at the Jewish holiday Tu BiShvat on the super blue blood moon on Jan 31. Tu BiShvat is “the birthday of the trees”, and I felt like God was telling us that we are the trees who would be born soon. There was a verse He showed me which I can’t remember now but will share if I remember what it was. So I’m in agreement that people are trees. But venge, how would you support your statement that, “The 1/3rd of trees that will die are people that bore no fruit.”? |
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Post by venge on Jun 4, 2018 9:18:52 GMT -6
It precedes the green grass. If the trumpet is wrath, believers are gone. If there is no more green grass because all of it was devoured, there is no more spiritual growing. Why? Because believers are not here. Bearing fruit is a process of being green grass. As green grass, when we bear fruit it is like flowers. Here, the statement of ALL green grass is gone demonstrates that. There is no fruit on these trees. Any tree that does not bear fruit is hewn (cut) down hence the 1/3rd here by hail and lightning similar to the Egyptian plague.
What’s exciting is the unliteral view of trumpet 2 and 3!!
Think Egypt plagues times 2. But they were also a shadow of things to come. Boils, hail, pestilence, locust army, are the rivers actually blood or is it a metaphor? 😮
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Post by witness1 on Jun 4, 2018 12:03:18 GMT -6
I think we're thinking along very similar lines, and I am looking forward to your view of trumpets 2 and 3 because I also think they are metaphors, although perhaps for a different reason than you do.
A few things to think about though:
1) Saying the trumpets are wrath is quite different than the typical pre-wrath view. The trumpets occur within the first 1260 days of the tribulation, coinciding with the 2 witnesses. How do you justify the trumpets being God's direct wrath? Many only attribute the 7 bowls of wrath to His direct wrath.
2) The green grass is burned up in the same trumpet as 1/3 of the trees, and the text lists the grass being burned AFTER the trees are burned. If green grass represents spiritual growing, the trees which are burned COULD be the trees which are bearing fruit. The text would then say that the fruit-bearing trees are burned, which is all of the green grass at that point in time.
3) "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." Matthew 7:19
However in Revelation 8 we see that these trees have already been burned by fire. How can non-fruit bearing trees be thrown into the fire if we are also saying that they have been burned up by fire?
4) We see more green plants and trees further down in the 5th trumpet. So if trees and green plants represent spiritual growth, spiritual growth is not done on earth at the 1st trumpet. "Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth. They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who dod not have the seal of God on their foreheads." Rev 9: 3-4
So these verses are further support that trees, grass, and plants are people like you're saying. And the 1st trumpet says that all of the green grass is burned up, that 1/3 of the trees, and 1/3 of the earth are burned up. But then later we see more green plants, and these people are protected from the locusts. So there must be spiritual growth after the 1st trumpet.
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Post by venge on Jun 4, 2018 12:38:30 GMT -6
I think we're thinking along very similar lines, and I am looking forward to your view of trumpets 2 and 3 because I also think they are metaphors, although perhaps for a different reason than you do. A few things to think about though: 1) Saying the trumpets are wrath is quite different than the typical pre-wrath view. The trumpets occur within the first 1260 days of the tribulation, coinciding with the 2 witnesses. How do you justify the trumpets being God's direct wrath? Many only attribute the 7 bowls of wrath to His direct wrath. 2) The green grass is burned up in the same trumpet as 1/3 of the trees, and the text lists the grass being burned AFTER the trees are burned. If green grass represents spiritual growing, the trees which are burned COULD be the trees which are bearing fruit. The text would then say that the fruit-bearing trees are burned, which is all of the green grass at that point in time. 3) "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." Matthew 7:19 However in Revelation 8 we see that these trees have already been burned by fire. How can non-fruit bearing trees be thrown into the fire if we are also saying that they have been burned up by fire? 4) We see more green plants and trees further down in the 5th trumpet. So if trees and green plants represent spiritual growth, spiritual growth is not done on earth at the 1st trumpet. "Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth. They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who dod not have the seal of God on their foreheads." Rev 9: 3-4 So these verses are further support that trees, grass, and plants are people like you're saying. And the 1st trumpet says that all of the green grass is burned up, that 1/3 of the trees, and 1/3 of the earth are burned up. But then later we see more green plants, and these people are protected from the locusts. So there must be spiritual growth after the 1st trumpet. 1) Saying the trumpets are wrath is quite different than the typical pre-wrath view. The trumpets occur within the first 1260 days of the tribulation, coinciding with the 2 witnesses. How do you justify the trumpets being God's direct wrath? Many only attribute the 7 bowls of wrath to His direct wrath. I don't hold that the trumpets have to be in the first 1260 days. I have always maintained, in my opinion, the trumpets come after the AoD is setup which happens in the proximity to the middle of the 7 year Tribulation. If the AoD was setup 30 days prior to the actual 1260 day mark, I suppose a trumpet could be within the window of the 1st half for 30 days...more likely the 2nd half though.2) The green grass is burned up in the same trumpet as 1/3 of the trees, and the text lists the grass being burned AFTER the trees are burned. If green grass represents spiritual growing, the trees which are burned COULD be the trees which are bearing fruit. The text would then say that the fruit-bearing trees are burned, which is all of the green grass at that point in time. Remember, the green grass that is burned up has many meanings. Devoured is one of them. It is symbolic of the green grass being gone. It does not have to be "killed" to be gone but absent from the world. I take it spiritually from the verses I quoted.
The people are like grass but they wither before they grow. I take it as is talking about changing into the new man. Perhaps someone else takes it differently?
3) "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." Matthew 7:19 However in Revelation 8 we see that these trees have already been burned by fire. How can non-fruit bearing trees be thrown into the fire if we are also saying that they have been burned up by fire?
The Fire was lighting, not actual fire. Fire in the sky is a term to denote lighting strikes/flashes. They are cut down (killed) and later they are thrown into the fire (lake of fire). This is the cutting down. All of the Tribulation is the cutting down. The fire comes later. The word Pur (fire) used in the text was defined as: fire; the heat of the sun, lightning; fig: strife, trials; the eternal fire.
4) We see more green plants and trees further down in the 5th trumpet. So if trees and green plants represent spiritual growth, spiritual growth is not done on earth at the 1st trumpet. "Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth. They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who dod not have the seal of God on their foreheads." Rev 9: 3-4 If spiritual growth is not possible at the first trumpet, then going back to your question of why they say in Rev 9:20-21
That would make sense and backup what happened in the 1st trumpet.
The verse in Rev 9:3-4 is interesting because as you point out, the locusts are not to hurt tree's or any green grass. But if the green grass was all withered as the 1st trumpet said, how could green grass exists after it? I think the answer lie when it said only those who were not sealed...ie. the 144k are the trees with fruit, the green grass that remains along with the 2 witnesses. At least, that is how I take it right now, but I need to study it more. We cannot have all the green grass destroyed and yet after this...possibly months later, have green grass in that trumpet. All that remains was the 144k. I cannot infer that it is tribulation saints outside of the 144k because "the rest of mankind...…..did not repent of their ……" in Rev 9:20-21.
But that is jumping ahead =P
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Post by stormyknight on Jun 4, 2018 13:46:21 GMT -6
I have noticed the comparison of people to trees before, but I was still of the mind that those verses were talking about destruction of literal trees and grass. Now that you point out the connection that people are also grass, it really comes into focus. The destruction of the wicked, those that refuse to repent. It only being a 1/3 of mankind, that leaves approx. 5 billion who turn to God in the tribulation, correct? Not counting those who were caught up beforehand, of course. Thanks, venge, that was enlightening. |
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Post by witness1 on Jun 4, 2018 14:38:26 GMT -6
I think we're thinking along very similar lines, and I am looking forward to your view of trumpets 2 and 3 because I also think they are metaphors, although perhaps for a different reason than you do. A few things to think about though: 1) Saying the trumpets are wrath is quite different than the typical pre-wrath view. The trumpets occur within the first 1260 days of the tribulation, coinciding with the 2 witnesses. How do you justify the trumpets being God's direct wrath? Many only attribute the 7 bowls of wrath to His direct wrath. 2) The green grass is burned up in the same trumpet as 1/3 of the trees, and the text lists the grass being burned AFTER the trees are burned. If green grass represents spiritual growing, the trees which are burned COULD be the trees which are bearing fruit. The text would then say that the fruit-bearing trees are burned, which is all of the green grass at that point in time. 3) "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." Matthew 7:19 However in Revelation 8 we see that these trees have already been burned by fire. How can non-fruit bearing trees be thrown into the fire if we are also saying that they have been burned up by fire? 4) We see more green plants and trees further down in the 5th trumpet. So if trees and green plants represent spiritual growth, spiritual growth is not done on earth at the 1st trumpet. "Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth. They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who dod not have the seal of God on their foreheads." Rev 9: 3-4 So these verses are further support that trees, grass, and plants are people like you're saying. And the 1st trumpet says that all of the green grass is burned up, that 1/3 of the trees, and 1/3 of the earth are burned up. But then later we see more green plants, and these people are protected from the locusts. So there must be spiritual growth after the 1st trumpet. 1) Saying the trumpets are wrath is quite different than the typical pre-wrath view. The trumpets occur within the first 1260 days of the tribulation, coinciding with the 2 witnesses. How do you justify the trumpets being God's direct wrath? Many only attribute the 7 bowls of wrath to His direct wrath. I don't hold that the trumpets have to be in the first 1260 days. I have always maintained, in my opinion, the trumpets come after the AoD is setup which happens in the proximity to the middle of the 7 year Tribulation. If the AoD was setup 30 days prior to the actual 1260 day mark, I suppose a trumpet could be within the window of the 1st half for 30 days...more likely the 2nd half though.The trumpets do have to be in the first 1260 days because the text makes it clear. The 5th trumpet (locusts) is the 1st woe and the 6th trumpet (angels of death) is the 2nd woe. Then we see the witnesses:
"But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them. And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.
The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come." Rev 11:11-14
So the witnesses ascend right at the same time as the 2nd woe, which is the 6th trumpet. Which means the first 5 trumpets happened within the first 1260 days.
2) The green grass is burned up in the same trumpet as 1/3 of the trees, and the text lists the grass being burned AFTER the trees are burned. If green grass represents spiritual growing, the trees which are burned COULD be the trees which are bearing fruit. The text would then say that the fruit-bearing trees are burned, which is all of the green grass at that point in time. Remember, the green grass that is burned up has many meanings. Devoured is one of them. It is symbolic of the green grass being gone. It does not have to be "killed" to be gone but absent from the world. I take it spiritually from the verses I quoted.I agree that it does not have to be "killed", even though God makes it clear that death is exceedingly merciful during this period of time. My point is that you cannot say definitively that the trees who are burned up are the ones who don't bear fruit.The people are like grass but they wither before they grow. I take it as is talking about changing into the new man. Perhaps someone else takes it differently?3) "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." Matthew 7:19 However in Revelation 8 we see that these trees have already been burned by fire. How can non-fruit bearing trees be thrown into the fire if we are also saying that they have been burned up by fire? The Fire was lighting, not actual fire. Fire in the sky is a term to denote lighting strikes/flashes. They are cut down (killed) and later they are thrown into the fire (lake of fire). This is the cutting down. All of the Tribulation is the cutting down. The fire comes later. The word Pur (fire) used in the text was defined as: fire; the heat of the sun, lightning; fig: strife, trials; the eternal fire. We can't say for sure that this fire is lightning. It could also be the figurative meaning of trials. The word for fire in Matthew 7:19 is the same as the word in Rev 8:7. Is Jesus saying that trees that do not bear fruit will be thrown into lightning? Or are both the figurative fire of God, ie trials?
4442 pýr – fire. In Scripture, fire is often used figuratively – like with the "fire of God" which transforms all it touches into light and likeness with itself
I think both of the fires in Matthew and Revelation are figurative. Jesus says that "every tree that does not bear good fruit is thrown into the fire". We see these fires being thrown to earth in the 1st trumpet. This is trial and strife: the fire of God. Once a non-fruit bearing tree begins to bear fruit however, it has been consumed by the fire and has been "burned up". Trees that do not bear fruit (ie do not publicly profess Jesus) are left in the fire until they are consumed. So the 1/3 of trees who have been "burned up" in the 1st trumpet are the fruit-bearing trees, and the 2/3 left need more time in the fire to bear fruit.
4) We see more green plants and trees further down in the 5th trumpet. So if trees and green plants represent spiritual growth, spiritual growth is not done on earth at the 1st trumpet. "Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth. They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who dod not have the seal of God on their foreheads." Rev 9: 3-4 If spiritual growth is not possible at the first trumpet, then going back to your question of why they say in Rev 9:20-21I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I do think spiritual growth is possible at the first trumpet. I meant that spiritual growth on earth has not finished at the 1st trumpet because we see more green plants later.That would make sense and backup what happened in the 1st trumpet. Yes... Rev 9:20-21 does back up what happened at the 1st trumpet. I think the trumpets are progressively removing believers from the earth. At the 1st trumpet, all green grass is removed. But then there are more green plants by the time of the 5th trumpet, so more people have come into God's Kingdom between trumpets 1 and 5. It is only after the 6th trumpet when there is no one left on earth who worships God. After this, we see the 7th trumpet where "God takes His power and begins to reign" and pours out His wrath on the beast system.
I look forward to hearing your view on the 2nd and 3rd trumpets. The verse in Rev 9:3-4 is interesting because as you point out, the locusts are not to hurt tree's or any green grass. But if the green grass was all withered as the 1st trumpet said, how could green grass exists after it? I think the answer lie when it said only those who were not sealed...ie. the 144k are the trees with fruit, the green grass that remains along with the 2 witnesses. At least, that is how I take it right now, but I need to study it more. We cannot have all the green grass destroyed and yet after this...possibly months later, have green grass in that trumpet. All that remains was the 144k. I cannot infer that it is tribulation saints outside of the 144k because "the rest of mankind...…..did not repent of their ……" in Rev 9:20-21.I answered this above, but I think more people come into the Kingdom between trumpets 1 and 5. The tribulation is about God's refining fire to draw men to Himself. These trumpets and this fire bring a "Great Multitude" into the Kingdom. If no one on earth believed in God after the 1st trumpet, the text would have said so. But it doesn't say that until the 6th trumpet. Yet the first trumpet also says the green grass was gone... so more come to believe in God in between. We especially see this when the witnesses ascend:
"And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come."
At the earthquake with the 2 witnesses, 7,000 people were killed and the rest gave glory to God. So more people come into the Kingdom here. We also see that this coincides with the 2nd woe (the 6th trumpet angels of death, after which no one else gives glory to God). So in the final moments before the angels of death come, the rest of the people in the city with the 2 witnesses give glory to God. And then after the angels of death, there is no one who repents...
But that is jumping ahead =P
Looking forward to it! |
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Post by witness1 on Jun 4, 2018 14:56:37 GMT -6
I have noticed the comparison of people to trees before, but I was still of the mind that those verses were talking about destruction of literal trees and grass. Now that you point out the connection that people are also grass, it really comes into focus. The destruction of the wicked, those that refuse to repent. It only being a 1/3 of mankind, that leaves approx. 5 billion who turn to God in the tribulation, correct? Not counting those who were caught up beforehand, of course. Thanks, venge , that was enlightening. I think it's important to notice though that "people" are not grass and trees. "Believers" are grass and trees. We see this here: "They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads." Rev 9:4 (This is regarding protection from the stinging locusts). This presents some problems with the way most people interpret the tribulation and the purpose of it. Because yes, I am saying that it is BELIEVERS who are consumed by God's holy fire. We have never seen unbelievers referred to as trees or green grass. There are numerous verses about trees relating to God's people throughout the Bible. Not all of them bear fruit, but they are all trees. Only the trees planted by streams of living water bear fruit each season. But I am especially encouraged by these verses in Job regarding these trees we see who are not bearing fruit right now: “For there is hope for a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that its shoots will not cease. Though its root grow old in the earth, and its stump die in the soil, yet at the scent of water it will bud and put out branches like a young plant." Job 14:7-9 |
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Post by venge on Jun 4, 2018 17:57:44 GMT -6
Witness,
Yeah, this is some exciting stuff. I’m actually enjoying it. In relation to what you’re talking about about the two witnesses, I understand that you meant since they have to be on earth for 1260 days. Therefore, if they have to be here for 1260 days, then if they die and they resurrect you have to go back 1260 days. And that’s logical. I’m not denying that. But who is to say when the first trumpet starts? We don’t know when the witnesses start at what time we only know that they are here for 1260 days. It is very possible that they come before the first trumpet and they still die within the trumpets. We don’t know the total amount of time from the first trumpet to the last trumpet. What if the two witnesses came before the AOD was set up. Why they were here he was part of the ministry of the 1260 days. The AOD is set up, and the great tribulation begins. We have trumpets one through five. The two witnesses die. The thing is we don’t know when they start we only know the total amount of their ministry. So it is possible that they start before the trumpets and still fall in the 1260 days. Because they have a 1260 day ministry does not mean they have to start at the first seal and it does not mean they have to start the first trumpet they could start halfway in to the First half of Daniel 70 week and continue halfway into the second half of Daniel 70th week.
Think of it this way, what if the Trumpet one through five is only five months long out of a 42 month ministry. What about the rest of the months? They would’ve had to happen before the first trumpet into the seals. Right?
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Post by witness1 on Jun 11, 2018 14:44:32 GMT -6
I suppose it's possible that the witnesses don't start on day 1 but rather some undetermined time after that. I think that would be strange though... I feel like God has given us everything we need to understand the end times, and there is nothing in scripture that would indicate when they start if it isn't day 1. Do they start on day 47? Day 226? Day 843? How are we supposed to know? I feel like all necessary information should be in scripture already, and there is nothing to indicate a day count in the middle of the first 1260 days.
Also, I find the double reference to the time of their testimony interesting:
"Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” Rev 11:1-3
It is interesting to me that time periods are given in two separate ways: 42 months and 1260 days. I find it fascinating that the negative situations are given as 42 months whereas the positive situations are given as 1260 days.
Negative:
The beast is allowed to exercise authority for 42 months.
The holy city is trampled for 42 months.
Positive:
The woman is protected in the wilderness for 1260 days.
The 2 witnesses prophesy for 1260 days.
(Note that no other time period for the great tribulation is mentioned... only these 4 situations.)
This seems, to me, to relate the trampling of the holy city to the time of the beast's authority, suggesting that the holy city is trampled while the beast has authority. Both of those periods are given as 42 months.
Likewise, I relate the time of the witnesses to the time the woman is protected, since both of these are given as 1260 days. I think the witnesses prophesy while the woman is protected.
Furthermore, Rev 11:1-3 seems to correlate the period of 42 months and the 1260 days as the same time. The holy city will be trampled for 42 months, and God will grant power to His witnesses for 1260 days. These seem like the same period of time to me since they are connected in verses 2 and 3 of chapter 11 with the word "and".
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Post by venge on Jun 15, 2018 8:20:00 GMT -6
I suppose it's possible that the witnesses don't start on day 1 but rather some undetermined time after that. I think that would be strange though... I feel like God has given us everything we need to understand the end times, and there is nothing in scripture that would indicate when they start if it isn't day 1. Do they start on day 47? Day 226? Day 843? How are we supposed to know? I feel like all necessary information should be in scripture already, and there is nothing to indicate a day count in the middle of the first 1260 days. Also, I find the double reference to the time of their testimony interesting: "Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” Rev 11:1-3 It is interesting to me that time periods are given in two separate ways: 42 months and 1260 days. I find it fascinating that the negative situations are given as 42 months whereas the positive situations are given as 1260 days. Negative: The beast is allowed to exercise authority for 42 months. The holy city is trampled for 42 months. Positive: The woman is protected in the wilderness for 1260 days. The 2 witnesses prophesy for 1260 days. (Note that no other time period for the great tribulation is mentioned... only these 4 situations.) This seems, to me, to relate the trampling of the holy city to the time of the beast's authority, suggesting that the holy city is trampled while the beast has authority. Both of those periods are given as 42 months. Likewise, I relate the time of the witnesses to the time the woman is protected, since both of these are given as 1260 days. I think the witnesses prophesy while the woman is protected. Furthermore, Rev 11:1-3 seems to correlate the period of 42 months and the 1260 days as the same time. The holy city will be trampled for 42 months, and God will grant power to His witnesses for 1260 days. These seem like the same period of time to me since they are connected in verses 2 and 3 of chapter 11 with the word "and". I get what you’re saying. It is fascinating to say the least. I had suggested the 2 witnesses may be between the dates because atm, I tend to follow a method that the seals and trumpets are seperate. That they also follow each other (they don’t stack), and that they are all future (not throughout history). If this is true, as it is 1possibility I hold to, the 2 witnesses dieing before the bowls and before the end of trumpets would have to put the start of their ministry of 42 months/1260 days before the midpoint of the 70th week. It is only logical with that paradigm. It is not important when they start. Only that they do, and when people see them, they know they have 1260 days and then they die and places the trumpet at a specific time frame then allowing those on the earth to see the next plague before it happens. They must be removed prior to the bowls because “in them is filled the wrath of God”, yet the trumpets are wrath too but scripture seems to show on those that have not the seal of God in their foreheads. With the Holy Spirit sealing them. That is not to negate the fact that we read those on the earth repent not of their wicked ways. |
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