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Post by venge on Feb 3, 2020 11:15:59 GMT -6
disciple4life - i believe Nelson hols a pre-wrath view. For the record my point in sharing his info is to help others at the least consider other possibilities. If we are caught up at the beginning of a 70th week (assuming we still have 3.5 or 7 yrs to go after that) I am all for it! However it does me (personally) to not be caught off guard, and not be asleep and consider other potential rapture timing events. venge has also shared some solid arguments with me on this too! Again its just me but I gain nothing by stating "the rapture must come before (Trib, Anti-Christ, etc)". I'll be caught up or raised to life either way 😃 I appreciate your candor mikeI remember our talks and it is still my heartfelt belief that those who hold onto whatever interpretation they believe, that they remain open to things possibly playing out different to their current understanding. I don’t want anyone caught off guard. Just a question for Disciple4life only: Do you find it interesting that the appearing of Christ happens at the wedding, the judgment, the reward, the 1k year reign, the sealing of Satan and the door closes afterwards all at the same time. The coincidence is remarkable. There is a scholar, I suppose he could be called so, that recognized this in the 1600s. He goes on to show correlation between such things in scripture. At any rate, I saw your post above and was curious what correlation you find with the wedding as you link it with the rapture. |
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Post by disciple4life on Feb 4, 2020 21:31:54 GMT -6
disciple4life - i believe Nelson hols a pre-wrath view. For the record my point in sharing his info is to help others at the least consider other possibilities. If we are caught up at the beginning of a 70th week (assuming we still have 3.5 or 7 yrs to go after that) I am all for it! However it does me (personally) to not be caught off guard, and not be asleep and consider other potential rapture timing events. venge has also shared some solid arguments with me on this too! Again its just me but I gain nothing by stating "the rapture must come before (Trib, Anti-Christ, etc)". I'll be caught up or raised to life either way 😃 I appreciate your candor mike I remember our talks and it is still my heartfelt belief that those who hold onto whatever interpretation they believe, that they remain open to things possibly playing out different to their current understanding. I don’t want anyone caught off guard. Just a question for Disciple4life only: Do you find it interesting that the appearing of Christ happens at the wedding, the judgment, the reward, the 1k year reign, the sealing of Satan and the door closes afterwards all at the same time. The coincidence is remarkable. There is a scholar, I suppose he could be called so, that recognized this in the 1600s. He goes on to show correlation between such things in scripture. At any rate, I saw your post above and was curious what correlation you find with the wedding as you link it with the rapture. Hello brothers and sisters.
I lean strongly to the Pre-Trib position, completely closed to the notion of post-Trib - and I'm trying to have someone explain in a very basic level how the Pre-Wrath is similar and different to the Mid-Trib. I think you would agree that you hold a pre-wrath position, am I right, venge . It seems that what it has in common with the mid-trib, is that with both mid-trib and pre-wrath, we the Christians are here for part of the tribulation, "little t tribulation" but the Great Tribulation - last 3 1/2 years are when God's wrath is poured out and there is great and terrible judgement. and it is in the second half of the 7 years, The Great Tribulation, but Christians are raptured.
Is that part correct, as you see it, Venge? I'm really not arguing, or trying to trap anyone -as I don't know enough about the pre-wrath position. The Post-Trib has more holes than cheese, IMO, and falls apart like wet paper bag.
Re your question, I positively agree that Christ is there for all of these, the wedding, the harpazo, the judgement, the 1000 yr reign, and the door - [ I think you're referring to the passage in Rev 4, where the door of heaven is open and the angel says Come up Here? ] So in that sense, - yes, I am tracking with you - Christ is present in all these, but I see multiple scriptures that some are completely separate events. Some closely linked, maybe by a few seconds,/hours, very short gap, and others years apart. To me, - and the pre-trib position in general - I think they would agree - The Harpazo /Rapture / Day of Christ is - when "we who are alive and remain are caught up quickly with Christ in the clouds" at the Last Trump." and this is the door opening and the angel saying come up here. ***Note that the church- real physical congregations are all in Turkey, and the church is mentioned until Rev ch 4 when we see Come up Here, and then the church is not mentioned again until the end of Revelation. This is when Christ comes back With His Bride, and sets his feet on the MT of Olives. After this - the 7 year Tribulation is the 1000 year reign - So this 1000 year reign could be 3 1/2 years after the harpazo or 7.
Regarding how I see the wedding linked to the rapture -- Wow - that's super super exciting. I see it linked in multiple very huge ways. - The parable of the 5 wise and 5 foolish bridesmaids is a rapture parallel, and it's explicitly also a wedding. Bride comes with a Shout. ***That ones important, class. ;-)
- Paul also says of the rapture/ that the Lord comes with a Shout. Hmmm.
- The word for Feasts is "Moadim" or literally appointed times, and this word is also translated as 'rehearsal'. What is a rehearsal and what things do we have rehearsals for??
 - Paul said the feasts are a shadow of things to come,
- We are the bride of Christ, the Christians, and he provokes Israel to jealousy by taking a Gentile bride, on one of the Moadim - the appointed times, the rehearsal, - specifically on the Day of Shouting - which is also the Last Trump.
- In the traditional Jewish wedding, the Groom comes for his bride and then he takes her in to the Chuppah, the wedding chamber for 7 days, hmmm. Then, he comes out WITH his bride, and they go to the celebration - the wedding feast together.
- Jews believe that the Great Resurrection of the dead will happen on Feast of Trumpets/Yom Teruah Rosh Hashanah
- One of the themes of this feast day is Wedding.
If the Rapture doesn't happen at the beginning, of the tribulation, something triggers the beginning - I think all Christians will recognize it when it happens - the event will be so colossal, like WW III or a massive attack on Israel, and a massive earthquake and Damascus being totally destroyed and uninhabitable -- and millions of Christians all say, "Wow, so Mike and Venge were right" all in the same language. Just kidding about the language part. ;-) '
So then we re-calibrate our views, and we all buy water filters and fuel stoves, and stock up on ramen noodles and peanut butter and mild powder.
In a nutshell- I think we will be raptured, but my brother, I also think we have to keep it in our mind that things may not play out exactly like I thought or wished or was taught, -- so then, I'm prepared, and we have an exact day count, and the 144,000 witnesses, will be here, and also the two Godzilla brothers, and we do everything we can to warn others.
I hope that answers your question - and I sincerely am open and eager if you or Mike or others can give me a simple version of how Pre-wrath is similar/ different from Mid -Trib. Nelson Walters seemed to indicate year 6. Pretty specific -- I'm especially curious if this is common view and how he comes to that.
Maranatha -
Disciple4life
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Post by mike on Feb 5, 2020 6:22:00 GMT -6
disciple4life said: This viewpoint pre-supposes that the book is written in chronological order. Personally I am not of that persuasion. There are many reasons for this, but I will ask you to consider a simple one D4L. Rev12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. If the book is written chronologically in its entirety and you believe the Great Sign of 9/23/17 was in fact the verses above, we are well past chapter 4 at this point. Just something to keep you awake at night brother  EDITRe - Nelson - He has many videos supporting his view and for the most part they all make very good sense. When I was viewing one of them I realized that some things I may have learned from others previously were not necessarily correct. Here is one: Daniel 7-8 is and has been to my knowledge associated with 4 kingdoms and ultimately Alexander the Great, his generals and how that 'kingdom' is divided. However it is proposed and I am now persuaded that Daniel 8 is happening NOW! Listen to this explanation and consider Dan 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end [shall be] the vision.
Also as I was searching for the above, I stumbled on this short explanation of his regarding the rapture timing and how it can't be Pre-Trib. I'm not trying to persuade you or anyone else. Just as I once was staunch on Pre-Trib, I have relaxed that position as in all honesty I don't care when it is. The rapture will be when He says it will be and I am delighted beyond words to be a part of that family that He will raise and/or change in an instant! Interested to hear your feedback D4L
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Post by mike on Feb 5, 2020 9:02:26 GMT -6
disciple4life sorry to be flooding this thread with videos but some of this type of content hasnt really appeared in the time I've been on site. The reason I share videos like this is to help views be more well rounded regarding our times. For example if I were lazer focused on Rome being the final beast kingdom, or the pope must unequivocally be the anti-christ I could miss the possibility that the AC comes out of Islam and if it were happening right in front of me, I would miss it. Much like the Jews did when He came! This is the vid I was thinking of earlier regarding Daniel 8 and Alexander the Great. Though he touches on it briefly in the previous post, this is more detailed and worth a listen.
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Post by disciple4life on Feb 5, 2020 13:46:20 GMT -6
Thanks mike. I really appreciate it. The other one you posted by Nelson Walters was very interesting and his research was incredible. I look forward to seeing more of his stuff. In his personal reply he confirmed that he sees the Day of Christ and the Day of the Lord as two distinctly different events. |
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Post by mike on Feb 5, 2020 14:14:52 GMT -6
Thanks mike. I really appreciate it. The other one you posted by Nelson Walters was very interesting and his research was incredible. I look forward to seeing more of his stuff. In his personal reply he confirmed that he sees the Day of Christ and the Day of the Lord as two distinctly different events. Sweet bro! Glad you like it. Not sure if you remember Sam, but hes the one who pointed me to Nelson. Of course we may not agree 100% on all things but he does make a lot of good points, very sound! |
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Post by disciple4life on Feb 5, 2020 18:16:54 GMT -6
The other video you posted mike was also fantastic -- "The Neglected Rapture Passage". You said earlier, - you had some stuff for me that might keep me awake at night. Well, it's working, buddy. LOL.
Since this thread is on the Rapture vs the Second coming - I thought this one is really top notch. This is two end-times scholars, who both share rock-solid evidence - 8 differences between the Rapture and Second coming. It's phenomenal.
While all these 8 reasons/ differences are explicitly clear, I don't agree with the one guy's [Reynard Showers] assertion that the rapture is imminent [Can happen at any moment/any day]
It not only doesn't line up with the clues from Paul and Christ himself, but furthermore, it doesn't match at all with the model that Christ gave - a woman in labor.
Your wife is 2 months pregnant, and you both enrolled in a birthing class. You decide to share this amazing news in your Church Bible Study group of five couples, and "Fred" a single guy.
When the meeting is over, and you're having snacks - your wife announces that she is pregnant.
The whole group claps and cheers and the hostess breaks out the sparkling grape juice. Fred comes up and says' Congratulations, to both of you - I'm so happy for you -- Just think - the baby can come at any minute." Every woman in the group - is thinking "Oh brother, Fred really needs a wife to explain childbirth to him."
This first link, is for the John Ankenburg website, and there is a link for the full chart with all 8 differences and all the scriptures in PDF format. www.jashow.org/articles/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Prophecy_chart_v3.pdf
The video is about 21 minutes long, and they discuss the 8 differences.
I'm also attaching the pdf file here directly . 8 differences between Rapture and Second Co....pdf (115.16 KB)
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Post by venge on Feb 6, 2020 13:48:29 GMT -6
disciple4life, I think you would agree that you hold a pre-wrath position, am I right, venge . I am not 100% Pre Wrath. There are things, I suppose, that I agree with based upon scripture from different theories. There are things in the Pre Wrath, Post TB and Pre TB that I disagree with as well.
It seems that what it has in common with the mid-trib, is that with both mid-trib and pre-wrath, we the Christians are here for part of the tribulation, "little tribulation" but the Great Tribulation - last 3 1/2 years are when God's wrath is poured out and there is great and terrible judgement. and it is in the second half of the 7 years, The Great Tribulation, but Christians are raptured. Is that part correct, as you see it, Venge? I am still unsure if the entire event of the end days is 7 years. If the covenant made is for 7 years, 7 years do not need to take place if its cut short for the elects sake. Revelation only mentions 3.5 years. I can write a lot about this, but to keep it small - I will just say atm, I think the persecution will be when Christians are here as they are the ones with Jews who are persecuted and they cry out to God for vengeance. The greater persecution is the 3.5 years of the 70th week; but is it at the end of the beginning and the last 3.5 is cut short? I do not see the greater persecution as the outpouring of God's wrath. I see God's wrath poured out at the beginning of Christ millennial reign. When he must remove all those that work iniquity from his kingdom, for he must reign in order to do that. Placing the bowls in the millennial reign when he and we rule with a rod of iron. The 3.5 years persecution is judgment on Babylon only, not man. But it is the catalyst to brining the DotL close. Joel states the DotL is after the astral changes. And he says it is "near" the harvest and another says "near" the wedding linking the 2 events together. The implication is the DotL, which we are saved from (under no condemnation), happens within the persecution based about previous texts.
I see Christians raptured as the great multitude from every nation, tongue and tribe when multiple things happen at the same time which scripture identifies.
1. the Wedding
2. Last Day
3. Christ reigning
4. Trumpet of God blows
5. Last trumpet blows
6. Satan sealed
7. First resurrection
8. Flood covenant
9. Reward
10. Judgement (Bema seat)
11. Archangel cries
12. Mystery of God is finished, than the end comes
13. the door closing
14. DotL location
15. Like it was when Noah lived
16. the harvest
17. Fall festivals
Hope I didn't miss any from my notes. I can link all of this on the same day.
The Post-Trib has more holes than cheese, IMO, and falls apart like wet paper bag. I am not sure which part's you are referring.
Re your question, I positively agree that Christ is there for all of these, the wedding, the harpazo, the judgement, the 1000 yr reign, and the door - [ I think you're referring to the passage in Rev 4, where the door of heaven is open and the angel says Come up Here? ] So in that sense, - yes, I am tracking with you - Christ is present in all these, but I see multiple scriptures that some are completely separate events. Some closely linked, maybe by a few seconds,/hours, very short gap, and others years apart. To me, - and the pre-trib position in general - I think they would agree - The Harpazo /Rapture / Day of Christ is - when "we who are alive and remain are caught up quickly with Christ in the clouds" at the Last Trump." and this is the door opening and the angel saying come up here. ***Note that the church- real physical congregations are all in Turkey, and the church is mentioned until Rev ch 4 when we see Come up Here, and then the church is not mentioned again until the end of Revelation. This is when Christ comes back With His Bride, and sets his feet on the MT of Olives. After this - the 7 year Tribulation is the 1000 year reign - So this 1000 year reign could be 3 1/2 years after the harpazo or 7. I meant do you think they are all part of the rapture. I am not referring to Rev 4. I believe Rev 4 demonstrates the same thing it did to Ezekiel, Daniel and others. They experienced a vision of the heavenly place while on earth. John explains a vision earlier on. I recognize presbyter does not show up but it was not the only word used for the church. Saint was also used in the NT and continued to be used in the following chapters. I, myself, tread carefully when looking at scripture that I don't assume more than I think I know. If we are identified as saints, could that be the church? Yes. Is it us? Some say yes and others no. But all recognize it either is us or others like us. So the truth behind it changes to its either the church and we haven't been raptured yet, or the church has been raptured and it must be some other people who accept Christ because they are called saints and that is reserved for us. The latter explanation is formed deducing from the assertion we are not here therefore we have to contend with what they are. The original example doesn't take issue with the saints. It takes issue with: that means we go through persecution. If we go through it, the church has work to do during this time.If the Rapture doesn't happen at the beginning, of the tribulation, something triggers the beginning - I think all Christians will recognize it when it happens - the event will be so colossal, like WW III or a massive attack on Israel, and a massive earthquake and Damascus being totally destroyed and uninhabitable -- and millions of Christians all say, "Wow, so Mike and Venge were right" all in the same language. Just kidding about the language part. ;-) ' Remember, the day doesn't come with calamity. They were eating and drinking and given into marriage. Its not going to look different to many. Some will be drunk and it'll be normal life, others will see it. When the land is enveloped in darkness, how do the heathen see it? They don't see it today. This is why those with a light can walk in darkness because we can see our steps. In the parable of the 10 virgins he comes at midnight in the blackest of darkness. But it isn't dark for 5 of them. We wrestle against spiritual things. I think what will come to pass will be spiritual, perhaps not all of it but I think most of it. And those in darkness will not see it or understand it. And it will take them at surprise. So then we re-calibrate our views, and we all buy water filters and fuel stoves, and stock up on ramen noodles and peanut butter and mild powder. Whoever seeks to save their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for his sake will save it. Trust in God. he feeds the lilies. He provides for the birds of the air. Wait on him.
In a nutshell- I think we will be raptured, but my brother, I also think we have to keep it in our mind that things may not play out exactly like I thought or wished or was taught, -- so then, I'm prepared, and we have an exact day count, and the 144,000 witnesses, will be here, and also the two Godzilla brothers, and we do everything we can to warn others. I think we continue to do what we are commanded. To be a testimony to others and to preach the gospel. We are also to sound the trumpet when we see these things happen because those in darkness will not "see" them. The trumpet can be a metaphor for "last call". Last chance to correct oneself, to repent and get right with God. The 2 witnesses that breathe fire, I don't take as literal fire from their mouth. Consider the 2 verses below:
Revelation 11:5
And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Jeremiah 5:14
Therefore this is what the Lord GOD of Hosts says: "Because you have spoken this word, I will make My words a fire in your mouth and this people the wood it will consume.
Barnes commentary states on the subject: It is, of course, not necessary that this should be taken literally. The meaning is, that they would have the power of destroying their enemies as if fire should proceed out of their mouth; that is, their words would be like burning coals or flames.
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Post by venge on Feb 7, 2020 9:31:56 GMT -6
In continuation from above:
Here is a verse I rarely see quoted. In 2 Timothy, Paul identifies the reward with the crown of immortality, which we receive at the last trump, with Christ appearing in 2 Timothy 4:8. Yet in verse 1, we must stand before the bema seat first.
“I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom.”
Christ judges the live and dead at his appearance and his Kingdom. Do you find it interesting that his kingdom doesn’t begin till the 7th Trumpet? That places his appearance with his kingdom (7th Trumpet) and the last Trumpet (in a chronological sequence) at the same time. The correlation is uncanny.
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Solo
New Member
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Post by Solo on Mar 2, 2020 5:07:22 GMT -6
Natalie, Hi Dr Gene Kim did a great video on this very subject. You may fin interesting. GB
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Post by mike on Mar 2, 2020 7:17:51 GMT -6
Hello there Solo and welcome to unsealed. Suppose you've been following as a 'guest' and wanted to share what you are seeing, so thank you! Something I'm not sure I've heard yet is 2 raptures...or at least the way he spells them out. We have had shadows in Elijah and Enoch, perhaps a few others (Philip translated...) I'm not sure I agree with his take here, but one to consider for those interested. I find a couple of conflicting pieces in his analysis. I also find that he is very set in his take on this view, to which attitude I am personally not in favor as no one knows the way this will unfold |
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Post by disciple4life on Mar 2, 2020 22:32:41 GMT -6
Welcome to the Forum, Solo. Really glad to have your on board. Disciple4life here - Your brother in Tennessee. There were a few points he made that I agree with, and several that I didn't, and I agree with mike, that several points were weak/conflicting. I can see how/ why he used the example of Enoch [being caught up quickly, into heaven, and did not die, and the example of Phillip was caught up quickly - Here, in the passage of Phillip and the Ethiopian eunuch, we have the exact same word "Harpazo" - the Greek word for the Latin 'rapturo' which is where we get rapture. I think this is a stretch to use these as examples of multiple raptures. I think it's fair to say that most Bible Scholars and people on all ends of the Tribulation timeline would agree that "The Rapture" is the catching up with Christ which also corresponds with and immediately follows the resurrection of the dead. The resurrection of the dead, and the subsequent rapture- [To be caught up quickly, by force] of "We who are alive and remain". I think the biggest point is that wherever a person lands on the timing of the rapture- pre, mid or post, what the common link is that it's always seen as "Rapture of the church/Christians and resurrection of the dead" - Those dead who were Christian. For me personally, several different reasons, he is just very hard to follow, and I thought the same re him being very set in his way, and "if you don't accept that, that person is not a Bible-believing Christian." I know some people are not fans of the 'style' of Perry Stone, or JD Farag, or Sid Roth, or Robert Breaker. I guess that's why some like cats and some like dogs. heheh. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2020 10:58:43 GMT -6
Gene Kim is mental. He believes that Hell is under the ocean, that reptiles are inherently evil and there will be none in the MK, and that mermaids existed because Nephilim.
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