Job19
Layman
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Posts: 62 
|
Post by Job19 on Apr 12, 2018 4:44:39 GMT -6
My primary Bible text for this post is 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.
I know that we are all pretty familiar with this text as prophecy watchers and I for one find the words very interesting when I compare them to the state of the world in these last days. I see all of the events in the Olivet discourse unfolding in a pattern of peaks and valleys equating to the pattern of the birth pangs of a woman in child birth. They increase in frequency and intensity as the birth approaches. Earthquakes are a great example of this and it has been shown that earthquakes over the last 100 years have indeed increased in frequency and intensity. In terms of peace and safety I also find myself living in a world where one month we seem to be looking at the prospect of war, and the next month we seem to be in a state of relative peace. For example a few months ago we were all feeling that there was a very real possibility of war with North Korea (a peak) and then all of a sudden young Kim is playing nice and to everyone's surprise is talking of peace with South Korea and the USA (a valley). Now we seem to have climbed another "peak" with a very real prospect of a strike on Syria by the USA and possible retaliation by Russia.
My point is this. I firmly believe that scripture teaches that we will be raptured in a valley, when the world is talking of peace and safety, and not on a peak. Many people will get caught out, including many Laodiceans, when the Lord comes as a thief in the night. This is one of the reasons that I do not believe we will be here for any of the seals in Revelation 6. The rider on the red horse was granted to take peace from the earth and from thereon in the world descends into war and anarchy and wickedness the likes of which the world has never seen or will see again. With the Holy Spirit in His role as restrainer gone (2 Thes 2) I don't believe that the world can ever return to a state of "peace and safety" until the prince of peace returns (with us) in Rev 19:11. I would like to focus on a particular Greek word in 1 Thess 5:6 which hit me like a thunderbolt the first time I read it. The word "Others" in verse 6 is the Greek word "Loipos" (Strongs G3062) which means those remaining or left behind. So when the world is talking peace and safety, in their little pseudo valleys, then sudden destruction will come upon them (them being the unsaved world) and they will not escape. But we the Saints of the most High GOD will escape and will be caught up to GOD and His throne (Rev 12:5) & (1 Thess 4:13-18).
As I write this post its 11.30am (BST) on 12th April and warships are being deployed from the USA and Cyprus, Russia are moving warships from bases in Syria and the world is nervous. I personally believe that we will not be raptured at a time such as this but rather when "they" are talking about peace and safety. I certainly believe that what is happening right now is another major birth pang and I am quite stunned at the way the players involved in Isaiah 17, Psalm 83, Ezek 39-39, Jer 49 et al are all in place and posturing themselves exactly how scripture said that they would in the last days.
Maranatha & many blessings David
|
|
|
|
Post by kjs on Apr 12, 2018 12:23:55 GMT -6
This is an interesting theory -- and I am by no means saying it is wrong ....
But it may be possible that your putting too much emphasis on the "peace and safety" (or the peak and valley in your statement) then what is being declared.
For example the "THEY" is implied in this scripture -- it is the word legó (Strong's 3004): to say
3004 légō (originally, "lay down to sleep," used later of "laying an argument to rest," i.e. bringing a message to closure;
To Me -- the word légō is some official argument or resolution made by a Governing Body (or organization) that is trying to bring about the result (ie Peace and Safety) by fiat -- or declarative Power.
Interestingly enough the UN -- Late last year made just such a declarative statement.....
I think we are "IN THE TIME" now -- and it is simply just a matter of WHEN -- not dependent upon some events.
Just my two cents...........
|
|
Job19
Layman
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Posts: 62
|
Post by Job19 on Apr 14, 2018 5:54:27 GMT -6
Hi kjs,
I may not have ordered my words very well in this thread. I am not equating the "Peace & safety" in 1 Thess 5 to mean "peaks & Valleys". My use of peaks & valleys was just to illustrate that the world seems to go from one state of war or near war to relative calm. So the peace & safety is the Calm (or valley) and the war, or threat of war, are the peaks.
The whole theme of this passage of scripture is the DAY OF THE LORD. This is the tribulation period and it is my opinion that scripture is teaching us that just prior to that period the world will be in a relative state of calm, and THEY will being talking about peace & safety. I get your point regarding the Greek word "lego" in 1 Thess 5:3 but may I just re-emphasize that in verse 6 it commands us (the Bride) not to sleep as do others (unsaved folk). Others here is the Greek word "loipos" which means those remaining or left behind.
|
|
Job19
Layman
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Posts: 62
|
Post by Job19 on Apr 14, 2018 6:06:36 GMT -6
When I wrote this post war ships were heading for the Middle East in order to launch attacks on Syria. The attacks have now been launched and with the possibility of Russian reprisals, the world, including many Christians, are in a state of considerable fear of the future at this time and I know that many Christians are saying things such as "is this leading to Armageddon" or I don't think the second coming is far off" and things like that. In other words the world (INCLUDING CHRISTIANS) is on a high state of alert. My reading of scripture is that the Rapture will happen when the world IS NOT on a high state of alert.
Jesus will come like a thief in the night and will catch those Christians who are not watching by surprise.
|
|
Job19
Layman
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Posts: 62
|
Post by Job19 on Apr 17, 2018 0:40:16 GMT -6
I just listened to JD Farag being interviewed by Todd Hampson and they discussed this very topic. I thought it may be helpful. Here are the 2 links :
|
|
|
|
Post by mike on Apr 17, 2018 7:41:28 GMT -6
about the 18th minute JD states "pre-trib is doctrinal" and is also shown in the OT. He doesnt go into detail due to time, but I find that an interesting statement nonetheless.
|
|
|
|
Post by mike on Apr 17, 2018 8:31:05 GMT -6
Ok in video 2 JD says something very profound that struck me and I wanted to point it out to all. As we dialogue here and in other threads we are trying to determine if we are in week 69.5 already or waiting for 70 to begin, 3.5 years in the tribulation or 7, if the anti-christ/beast is a person or empire, is Jerusalem/Israel spiritual or physical, if we go to heaven when we die or sleep and on and on. Thos dialogues have some merit as we want to know more about the times that are approaching BUT...Please humor me and listen to the below around 22:55 and onward (I've queued it to start around there) for about 3-4 minutes. You decide what is of the utmost importance
|
|
|
|
Post by witness1 on Apr 17, 2018 9:13:13 GMT -6
A very, very good reminder Mike. Thank you.
34 "But watch yourselves lest your hearts be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and cares of this life, and that day come upon you suddenly like a trap.
35 For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man." - Luke 21:34-36
|
|
Job19
Layman
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Posts: 62
|
Post by Job19 on Apr 18, 2018 2:13:07 GMT -6
I totally agree that sometimes we don't prioritise the various elements of our Christian walk correctly. Prayer is so powerful and I always ask God every morning to enlighten my understanding of His Word. I also agree that some Christians can be a tad unkind, unteachable or condescending etc in debating Biblical issues and I for one often find myself treading that fine line between being passionate and getting my point across and being polite & loving to my fellow Brother or Sister in Christ.
On a related note I would like to share that my wife & I have recently moved home to the south coast of England and as you would expect we have been church hopping and searching for a spiritual home. I think that for evangelical Christians this if more difficult than in the USA since the UK has a far longer and wider base of Catholic, Church of England & Anglican churches where the gospel is very week and many are not even saved, just doing church sadly. We are obviously looking for a good Evangelical Church and over the last few months we have found that most of the Christians, Elders & Pastors have a stance of not wishing to preach or talk on Bible prophecy or the Second coming for fear that it causes division. To hear preachers say things like "I'm pan millennial...it will all pan out in the end" really bugs me and to me it reflects a great disrespect for the bible.
I wonder which is the greater sin, to ignore a quarter of Gods word, or to debate it and fall out over it. I say lets talk about it with passion, love and respect for one another. The study of bible prophecy is one of the greatest thrills and joys of my life.
Many blessings and let us all keep sharpening each other. David
|
|
|
|
Post by fitz on Apr 18, 2018 3:34:26 GMT -6
I have always thought it is a relatively peaceful time as well, a lull in the fighting and rhetoric, a "normal" time.
Just last Dec. when Trump announced that the US would be moving our embassy to Jerusalem, both he and Netanyahu delivered speeches where they used the "peace and security (safety)" phrase multiple times.
Thing is, it seems like it's getting more difficult by the day for this peaceful time to come about. Many years ago it would be several months (even years) between mention of significant conflict occurring between the various warring factions. But now, it seems like it's weekly that we hear of some country/group attacking another. Having said that, if you don't live in one of the hot spots, such as Syria, you can see how people are just going about business as usual. Here in America, war is something that happens elsewhere, in far away distant lands. Though we are involved "over there", people are just going about their lives, as it was in the days of Noah. We see war on the evening news, but it is far removed from us, almost like watching a movie.
This is probably another evidence that it will happen soon, before the state of the world gets much worse. But I know God is controlling all of these events and will make it come about at the perfect time.
|
|
|
|
Post by Joecool on Apr 18, 2018 4:34:33 GMT -6
I have always thought it is a relatively peaceful time as well, a lull in the fighting and rhetoric, a "normal" time. Just last Dec. when Trump announced that the US would be moving our embassy to Jerusalem, both he and Netanyahu delivered speeches where they used the "peace and security (safety)" phrase multiple times. Thing is, it seems like it's getting more difficult by the day for this peaceful time to come about. Many years ago it would be several months (even years) between mention of significant conflict occurring between the various warring factions. But now, it seems like it's weekly that we hear of some country/group attacking another. Having said that, if you don't live in one of the hot spots, such as Syria, you can see how people are just going about business as usual. Here in America, war is something that happens elsewhere, in far away distant lands. Though we are involved "over there", people are just going about their lives, as it was in the days of Noah. We see war on the evening news, but it is far removed from us, almost like watching a movie. This is probably another evidence that it will happen soon, before the state of the world gets much worse. But I know God is controlling all of these events and will make it come about at the perfect time. Yea most American's don't care what is going on in the middle east as long as it doesn't effect them. I have heard multiple people state they don't care, because fighting has always been going on over there or that they don't care because it doesn't affect them. I could see the rapture happening in a lull, but since when has there been a lull over the entire planet? Also we are concerned with what is going on in Syria, because we are watching the times, but most Americans and I wager other people on the planet are only concerned with getting by and making it through the work week. |
|
|
|
Post by mike on Apr 18, 2018 5:42:15 GMT -6
so true Joecool, so true. Its the "me first", "selfie" generation where many cant see beyond the cell phone in their hand and are only concerned with what others think about them. This battle for us is real too as we must remember each day that we need to be concerned about God thinks about us! |
|
|
|
Post by Joecool on Apr 18, 2018 9:14:32 GMT -6
so true Joecool , so true. Its the "me first", "selfie" generation where many cant see beyond the cell phone in their hand and are only concerned with what others think about them. This battle for us is real too as we must remember each day that we need to be concerned about God thinks about us! Can't see beyond the cell phone is definitely true. When I was at a restaurant last night I would say at least half the people were looking a their phones instead of the people next to them. They were paying no attention to their surrounding as if they were asleep and as the world sleeps so shall the "thief in the night" catch them off guard. Thanks for the reminder about being concerned what God thinks about us. It can give us the courage in this daily spiritual battle to share the gospel, even though we may be riddiculed for doing so. Any ridicule/harrassment we recieve is but a vapor in light of eternity. What does the instant 15min fame of facebook/internet mean to our Heavenly father? I am reminded of Matthew 16:26 "For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" |
|
|
|
Post by barbiosheepgirl on Apr 18, 2018 9:29:11 GMT -6
I am wondering though, there is trib and then there is Trib...I will have to check it out mike. I would like to know what part of Revelation is hands down, no argument considered parts of the Big T...what is the start of it...if we see Jerusalem attacked, would we still be thinking "pre-trib" rapture? 2 Thes : 1Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed,I go back and forth on this one, but the man of lawlessness being revealed and the apostasy happen FIRST, before we are gathered, no? Either the apostacy is the "departure" or it is a mass number of people losing their faith, perhaps because there is tribulation that discourages them...? feel free to move this comment to another thread, I am short on time. JD is always fun to listen to, and so I will try to finish the whole message you posted. Maranatha! |
|
|
|
Post by mike on Apr 18, 2018 9:46:08 GMT -6
I understand the "back and forth" part barbiosheepgirl . I have resolved to continue to dialogue about these with the understanding that despite my efforts (and those of others) I may never fully understand these things while still in this body. I am ok with that, which ties back to my (2nd?) post about what JD said in video 2 or the second half of the interview. I'm not going to get into in "heated" debates about some of these things as they profit none of us if they are in the wrong spirit, and take our focus off where it should be (no accusations). If such debates turn into Titus 3:9 or 1Tim 1:4 then I have a differing opinion, and will follow Paul's instruction  In the end we are stronger when praying for each other, for our families, friends, co-workers (except yours Babs-cant help the sheep  ),here and wherever we can! Lord I ask you give each of us the strength, courage and boldness to go against the flow of this world! Bring the right words to us at the right time Holy Spirit! How we need you Lord. Forgive us for repeatedly failing You! |
|
),here and wherever we can!