Job19
Layman
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Posts: 62 
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Post by Job19 on Apr 4, 2018 3:33:05 GMT -6
I have thought very carefully about my wording of this thread since it could easily be misinterpreted that I am suggesting that our Lord is playing games with us. I have seen many times over the years of my bible studies that the Lord did actually toy with, manipulate, and change words. I do not believe for one moment that He did this to play games or to deceive us in any way but rather for our edification and to reward the diligent student with spiritual nuggets. Proverbs 25:2 springs to mind: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter". One of my favourite examples of this is in the Olivet discourse.
Matthew 24:36-44 36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven,[e] but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour[f] your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
The People taken away during the flood were all taken away in judgement (Greek word is Airo-Strongs G142). From a straight reading of our English bibles we would have to admit that the people in verse 40 (end times folk) are also taken away in judgement. However Jesus changed the word for "taken" from Airo to Paralambano (Strongs G3880). Jesus changed the word from a sense of judgement to a sense of blessing which I believe refers to being taken away in the Rapture.
I have thought for many years about Jesus' language in verse 36 about his return and quite frankly its always seemed a little strange to me. If I were planning a trip to Australia which was somewhat open ended I may say to family & friends something along the lines of "I am going to Australia but I don't know when I will be back" or "I am going to Australia and will return when my conference is over but I don't know when that will be". I think that my family and friends would think it strange if I said something like " I am going to Australia and I don't know at what day or hour I will return". I believe that Jesus deliberately used the language of a Jewish idiom that was directly connected to the Feast of Trumpets. I know that Gary has written an excellent article on the Day & Hour but I just wanted to chip in my opinion and ask for the views of my fellow prophecy students regarding Jesus' specific use of words. The new month could not officially begin until two witnesses reported to the High Priest that they had seen the sliver of the new moon. Once the first two sightings were confirmed, the priests would sound the shofar to declare the start of Rosh HaShanah. But until these two witnesses came forth, the response from the priests would always be "no one knows the day or the hour" of when the holiday would begin. Thus the words of Yeshua become significant here with this understanding. (Matthew 24:36) Yeshua was saying that He would come for His bride at Rosh HaShanah (Feast of the Ingathering or Feast of Trumpets). His disciples would have understood immediately what He meant. But the meaning has been lost over the centuries as the Scriptures have been separated further and further from its Hebrew roots. Yeshua was saying that we would not know which [of the two] days or at what hour [which watch during that night (Mark 13:35)], or which year that He would come. However, He did insist that we know the times and the season. This is why He gave us so many signs to look for.
I have listened to all the arguments for a Passover rapture and a Pentecost rapture but they do not fit with the language of Jesus or Paul in 1 Thes 4 or 1 Cor 15 and I get a sense that every year when Rosh HaShanah comes and goes many start trying to hang their rapture hat on other feast days or days within those feast day periods but I am convinced from Jesus' choice of words that we will be raptured on one of the two days of Rosh HaShanah and I would challenge anyone to prove that I am violating any part of scripture by holding to that belief. Scottie Clarke has a good Video presentation on this :
My hope and my prayer is that this September our blessed hope with be finally realised.
Many blessings David
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Post by gkp on Apr 4, 2018 6:32:25 GMT -6
Hi David, Thank you for the very thoughtful post! I appreciate that you are seriously looking past the limitations of English translations as well as trying to understand the cultural setting of what Jesus was saying. You bring up good points. Let me respond by offering two alternative conclusions.
I think you are completely accurate by recognizing the clear connection of Jesus's words with the Feast of Trumpets. But rather than being a way to pin down our Rapture to a two day time slot, Jesus may have been using the way the Jews anticipated Trumpets as a way for us to anticipate an even greater event. In other words the Trumpet Feast required diligent watching so as to honor God and celebrate it on the right day. So our watching the signs helps us and motivates us to use these remaining days effectively.
The second thing I think might be useful is to notice what these witnesses were actually looking for. They would every night see the moon get smaller and smaller until only a bare sliver was visible. Then they would tell the authorities that it was soon to be invisible. No one on earth has ever seen a new moon (if I understand this accurately). It is invisible. The application for us is that the signs we have been noting equate to the moon growing smaller every day. None of us has seen the rapture but we know it is very near when the barest sliver of "moon" remains.
I am shooting from the hip this morning but will welcome better thoughts from others if I have missed something. Thanks again for your insight and for waking me up to a good project to consider!
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Post by venge on Apr 18, 2018 9:51:57 GMT -6
I have thought very carefully about my wording of this thread since it could easily be misinterpreted that I am suggesting that our Lord is playing games with us. I have seen many times over the years of my bible studies that the Lord did actually toy with, manipulate, and change words. I do not believe for one moment that He did this to play games or to deceive us in any way but rather for our edification and to reward the diligent student with spiritual nuggets. Proverbs 25:2 springs to mind: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter". One of my favourite examples of this is in the Olivet discourse.
Matthew 24:36-44 36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven,[e] but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour[f] your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
The People taken away during the flood were all taken away in judgement (Greek word is Airo-Strongs G142). From a straight reading of our English bibles we would have to admit that the people in verse 40 (end times folk) are also taken away in judgement. However Jesus changed the word for "taken" from Airo to Paralambano (Strongs G3880). Jesus changed the word from a sense of judgement to a sense of blessing which I believe refers to being taken away in the Rapture.
I have thought for many years about Jesus' language in verse 36 about his return and quite frankly its always seemed a little strange to me. If I were planning a trip to Australia which was somewhat open ended I may say to family & friends something along the lines of "I am going to Australia but I don't know when I will be back" or "I am going to Australia and will return when my conference is over but I don't know when that will be". I think that my family and friends would think it strange if I said something like " I am going to Australia and I don't know at what day or hour I will return". I believe that Jesus deliberately used the language of a Jewish idiom that was directly connected to the Feast of Trumpets. I know that Gary has written an excellent article on the Day & Hour but I just wanted to chip in my opinion and ask for the views of my fellow prophecy students regarding Jesus' specific use of words. The new month could not officially begin until two witnesses reported to the High Priest that they had seen the sliver of the new moon. Once the first two sightings were confirmed, the priests would sound the shofar to declare the start of Rosh HaShanah. But until these two witnesses came forth, the response from the priests would always be "no one knows the day or the hour" of when the holiday would begin. Thus the words of Yeshua become significant here with this understanding. (Matthew 24:36) Yeshua was saying that He would come for His bride at Rosh HaShanah (Feast of the Ingathering or Feast of Trumpets). His disciples would have understood immediately what He meant. But the meaning has been lost over the centuries as the Scriptures have been separated further and further from its Hebrew roots. Yeshua was saying that we would not know which [of the two] days or at what hour [which watch during that night (Mark 13:35)], or which year that He would come. However, He did insist that we know the times and the season. This is why He gave us so many signs to look for.
I have listened to all the arguments for a Passover rapture and a Pentecost rapture but they do not fit with the language of Jesus or Paul in 1 Thes 4 or 1 Cor 15 and I get a sense that every year when Rosh HaShanah comes and goes many start trying to hang their rapture hat on other feast days or days within those feast day periods but I am convinced from Jesus' choice of words that we will be raptured on one of the two days of Rosh HaShanah and I would challenge anyone to prove that I am violating any part of scripture by holding to that belief. Scottie Clarke has a good Video presentation on this :
My hope and my prayer is that this September our blessed hope with be finally realised.
Many blessings David
Also Luke 17 has clues that answer Matthew 24 and vice versa. Line by line, precept by precept, here a little there a little. Plenty of signs given but some imo do not want to see. It’s difficult to look at. But I am ready from my good job, my nice house, all the treasures I have as I count them for dung. I am ready to be persecuted. I am ready to take up my cross. I am ready to lose my life to save it. What will I do? Only God knows, but I say I am ready because I know the truth of His son. |
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