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Post by kjs on Sept 16, 2017 16:42:34 GMT -6
I was just asking because it looked like you had a good handle on what he was saying. I actually did go back and try to watch it, but the link didn't work. So, to bring this around again to the OP, why do Christians insist that the 'rapture' is a supernatural event? Scripture makes more sense to interpret it is a natural gathering (not 'whisked away'). When Matt 24 says that word 'angels' in Greek, 'angelos', just means 'messengers'. Who are the messengers? We know from Rev 14 that these messengers are the 144,000 or the 2 witnesses and/ or the supernatural angels. Paul is the only one to use the 'meet the Lord in the air' expression, and even here, does it really mean 'whisked away'? Here is Paul using the word 'harpazo' (the word people go crazy for, the 'whisking away') 2 Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. the 'caught up to' is the Greek 'harpazo'/ seizing. And as we can see, he is decidely non-commital about it meaning 'whisked away'. I think the safer conclusion is that it means a natural gathering meeting Jesus spiritually, esp when Jesus said in John 17:15 Frankly, it's embarrassing to see people wondering if babies will be whisked away raptured, or what the age limit is for accepting Jesus into your heart, or arguing over how much you have to accept Jesus into your heart before you will be raptured. Doesn't it just make more sense to understand it in this manner: 'Don't worship the abomination statue or join with the apostate church / Jezebel and you will be safe from the Satanic system that will be created soon?' Seems pretty straightforward, as opposed to arguing over the equivalent of how many angels dance on the head of a pin. And just to defend my framework detailed in my prior response (to the general audience), I think it still works. The 1st woe should have started dusk Sept 14/ day Sept 15. The people of the ruler to come (aka the locusts belonging to Apollyon, the one who will physically & spiritually destroy the city and the sanctuary (at the 1st woe & 6th Trumpet/ 2nd woe) are the armies encompassing 'Jerusalem'/ Christianity/ USA? (see Luke 21:20-25, the analog to Matt 24's Olivet discourse where he equates the abomination to the armies/ locusts) the great tribulation will not begin until Feb 9, 2018 when the false prophet pretends to cast out demons using pharmakia/ hallucinogenic drugs for sorcery via disaster aid drugs. the armies are already taking shape in the form of alt -right Nazis, Leftist Antifa & Black Lives Matter, Republican Satanists (the upside down pentagram / stars on the elephant logo signify their allegiance to Satan), and dozens of other factions We know that there is tribulation before the sign of the son of man (Sept 23, 2017) and then the natural gathering occurs. Here's where it is interesting to me: it says that those days were shortened for the elect's sake. In the context of the start of the tribulation, they have been - it should have started yesterday! So when would it really start? On Sept 21, 2017, the UN's day of peace, safety and security. This is 2 days, the bare minimum of tribulation days (has to be a plural amount of days) before Sept 23's sign of the son of man. Also, in 2021, Sept 21 will be when the wrath goes out as per Zech 14 and is the basis for the world wide holiday described in Zech 14:16-21. (feast of booths/ tabernacles) Blur you seem to be passing on some information as though it was fact... Maybe a few more in my opinions would help, but it reads to me like your lecturing us with some pretty tall fantasies you developed .... Most which I reject out of hand. But you did raise one question, that deserves an answer....the rapture is a supernatural event because that is how it reads... Dead rising first, meeting Jesus in air and we who are alive meeting Jesus in The air, I say that is pretty supernatural event ...that is straight from the text... If you have a problem with it it up with the text, not try to reword it to suit your fancy. as far as Paul being caught up to the third heaven, that was a supernatural event in itself... Paul had a Near Death experience (as we would say now days) ... When He was Stoned at Phillippi .... They took him outside the city and left him for dead... The entire account is written in Acts for your reading pleasure...While He was dead - he was caught up to the third heaven ... That is pretty supernatural. While dead, He learned many things, some which he shared and some which he felt was forbidden to share.... |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2017 19:44:50 GMT -6
blur, As a second to kjs - the rapture is a supernatural event because that is how it reads ... changing in the twinkling of an eye.
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Post by watchmanjim on Sept 16, 2017 22:00:03 GMT -6
Yeah I'm having a hard time following your reasoning there, blur. . . . kind of sounds like you may be ignoring some fairly straightforward truths from Scripture, as kjs pointed out.
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blur
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Post by blur on Sept 17, 2017 10:14:35 GMT -6
I actually did go back and try to watch it, but the link didn't work. So, to bring this around again to the OP, why do Christians insist that the 'rapture' is a supernatural event? Scripture makes more sense to interpret it is a natural gathering (not 'whisked away'). When Matt 24 says that word 'angels' in Greek, 'angelos', just means 'messengers'. Who are the messengers? We know from Rev 14 that these messengers are the 144,000 or the 2 witnesses and/ or the supernatural angels. Paul is the only one to use the 'meet the Lord in the air' expression, and even here, does it really mean 'whisked away'? Here is Paul using the word 'harpazo' (the word people go crazy for, the 'whisking away') 2 Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. the 'caught up to' is the Greek 'harpazo'/ seizing. And as we can see, he is decidely non-commital about it meaning 'whisked away'. I think the safer conclusion is that it means a natural gathering meeting Jesus spiritually, esp when Jesus said in John 17:15 Frankly, it's embarrassing to see people wondering if babies will be whisked away raptured, or what the age limit is for accepting Jesus into your heart, or arguing over how much you have to accept Jesus into your heart before you will be raptured. Doesn't it just make more sense to understand it in this manner: 'Don't worship the abomination statue or join with the apostate church / Jezebel and you will be safe from the Satanic system that will be created soon?' Seems pretty straightforward, as opposed to arguing over the equivalent of how many angels dance on the head of a pin. And just to defend my framework detailed in my prior response (to the general audience), I think it still works. The 1st woe should have started dusk Sept 14/ day Sept 15. The people of the ruler to come (aka the locusts belonging to Apollyon, the one who will physically & spiritually destroy the city and the sanctuary (at the 1st woe & 6th Trumpet/ 2nd woe) are the armies encompassing 'Jerusalem'/ Christianity/ USA? (see Luke 21:20-25, the analog to Matt 24's Olivet discourse where he equates the abomination to the armies/ locusts) the great tribulation will not begin until Feb 9, 2018 when the false prophet pretends to cast out demons using pharmakia/ hallucinogenic drugs for sorcery via disaster aid drugs. the armies are already taking shape in the form of alt -right Nazis, Leftist Antifa & Black Lives Matter, Republican Satanists (the upside down pentagram / stars on the elephant logo signify their allegiance to Satan), and dozens of other factions We know that there is tribulation before the sign of the son of man (Sept 23, 2017) and then the natural gathering occurs. Here's where it is interesting to me: it says that those days were shortened for the elect's sake. In the context of the start of the tribulation, they have been - it should have started yesterday! So when would it really start? On Sept 21, 2017, the UN's day of peace, safety and security. This is 2 days, the bare minimum of tribulation days (has to be a plural amount of days) before Sept 23's sign of the son of man. Also, in 2021, Sept 21 will be when the wrath goes out as per Zech 14 and is the basis for the world wide holiday described in Zech 14:16-21. (feast of booths/ tabernacles) Blur you seem to be passing on some information as though it was fact... Maybe a few more in my opinions would help, but it reads to me like your lecturing us with some pretty tall fantasies you developed .... Most which I reject out of hand. But you did raise one question, that deserves an answer....the rapture is a supernatural event because that is how it reads... Dead rising first, meeting Jesus in air and we who are alive meeting Jesus in The air, I say that is pretty supernatural event ...that is straight from the text... If you have a problem with it it up with the text, not try to reword it to suit your fancy. as far as Paul being caught up to the third heaven, that was a supernatural event in itself... Paul had a Near Death experience (as we would say now days) ... When He was Stoned at Phillippi .... They took him outside the city and left him for dead... The entire account is written in Acts for your reading pleasure...While He was dead - he was caught up to the third heaven ... That is pretty supernatural. While dead, He learned many things, some which he shared and some which he felt was forbidden to share.... When I present things as 'fact', that is because the Bible says that it will be so. Maybe you don't agree with the Bible, or maybe aren't aware of what the verses say? Rev 12 It says that Satan will be thrown out of heaven before the birth occurs, Sept 23, 2017. What fantasy have I concocted? The stars falling from heaven are the 6th Seal/ 1- 4 Trumpets. Yes or no? Yes? What is my elaborate fantasy that I have constructed? Or have I just read the Bible? If I have misunderstood something, why don't you correct me? When the Bible says that the 1st woe lasts for 5 months, I take the bible at its word. That puts the 2nd woe, 6th Trumpet start at early Feb 2018 on a winter Sabbath, just like Matt 24:20-21 says. It definitely is my opinion that the pharmakia will be delivered via disaster aid drugs. It is definitely my opinion that the pharmakia/ drugs for sorcery 'works' by making people think that the false prophet is 'casting out demons'. But if you are going to say that 'pharmakia' is a 'fantasy', the Bible disagrees with you. The Bible (Rev 18:23) says that pharmakia / drugs for sorcery deceives the nations. That is not an elaborate fantasy. the 'strong delusion' is not a fantasy. Any more 'fantasies' that are straight out of the Bible that you would like to reject? I'm the one that posted the exact verse! How am I 'rewording' it? Wow Having a spiritual experience does not equate to being whisked away. |
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blur
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Post by blur on Sept 17, 2017 11:19:17 GMT -6
Yeah I'm having a hard time following your reasoning there, blur. . . . kind of sounds like you may be ignoring some fairly straightforward truths from Scripture, as kjs pointed out. You don't believe me, hopefully you will believe Jesus? John 17 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. 6 “ I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
biblehub.com/greek/684.htm 'destruction' here is apoleais, same root word as 'apollymi' - this is 'Apollyon'/ Abaddon / 'destroyer' of the 5th Trumpet/ 1st woe13 But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.
Jesus says, God please don't whisk them away, but protect them from the evil one, the son of destruction, aka Apollyon!!!
16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. |
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Post by whatif on Sept 17, 2017 12:46:11 GMT -6
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Post by kjs on Sept 17, 2017 12:50:14 GMT -6
Blur: You come onto to this website acting like a “Mr. Know-It-All” spouting nonsense without an ounce of scriptural support. You are gently rebuked, that some of your wild ideas are fantasies and should be rejected out of hand.
In return, you gave an aggressively hostile response, that came very close to breaking Rule Three of this website (some feel you actually broke it) … Here we will let you decide….
Here is RULE THREE
3. Don't invalidate a fellow member's thoughts. It is ok to express a disagreement, but this shouldn't be done along the lines of "you're just wrong" or "if you believed the Bible than you would agree with me",
Here is what you said:
Maybe you don't agree with the Bible, or maybe aren't aware of what the verses say?
See how you challenge my belief in the Bible, or that I am not as well studied as you?
So let us give some concrete examples – I will show some of your weird views (by quote) and how there are no scriptural references even close to these views….
Quote: “the great tribulation will not begin until Feb 9, 2018 when the false prophet pretends to cast out demons using pharmakia/ hallucinogenic drugs for sorcery via disaster aid drugs.”
There is no scripture reference for the DATE. There is no reference for the “pretend act”. Sounds more like a conspiracy theory found on some internet chat rooms. But nothing from the Bible to even support it.
Quote: “the armies are already taking shape in the form of alt -right Nazis, Leftist Antifa & Black Lives Matter, Republican Satanists (the upside down pentagram / stars on the elephant logo signify their allegiance to Satan), and dozens of other factions”
Again no scripture is given, not even a paraphrased version. Again seems to come from some conspiracy theory website – regardless of actual facts.
Quote: “Also, in 2021, Sept 21 will be when the wrath goes out as per Zech 14 and is the basis for the world wide holiday described in Zech 14:16-21. (feast of booths/ tabernacles)”
Hey finally got a scripture verse – BUT there is NOT one reference to a specific DATE.
So out of the three examples I give – only one has scripture associated with it --- AND that one makes a claim about a specific DATE --- yet no scripture to prove it… Think someone needs to go back to their drawing board – or at least to the BIBLE.
Your response is “What is my elaborate fantasy that I have constructed? “
I given your three examples already – you really want more?
You respond “If I have misunderstood something, why don't you correct me?”
Hmm, I did – I responded that the rapture is a supernatural event …
I showed how the TEXT itself shows it is a supernatural event …..
NOT one response to that correction…….
BLUR … we are less than five days away from the SIGN. Monitors like I have no wish to go around validating every theory coming down the pike … we want to enjoy getting ready to meeting Jesus.
Please do not make us Lock this thread or warn of banning --- simply cause you have some theories that have no scriptural support – but you just know for sure what will happen and when.
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