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Post by mike on Apr 10, 2018 11:36:31 GMT -6
venge what youre stating makes this a works based salvation which is not only false but not supported here. There is no amount of repentance that saves you. Just like being baptized doesnt save you (See Acts 2:38). Repent means to change you mind, attitude towards something, not a requisite for salvation. I sincerely ask you to read the dialogue here starting on page 3 (the link should take you there) second post down where Socalexile explains the difference and does so very well. He clearly demostrates the parable of the ten virgins is not about the rapture. If we need to continue to discuss we can move to a new thread
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Post by witness1 on Apr 10, 2018 11:46:53 GMT -6
I will add though that I still have a hard time saying that repentance isn't needed. I see the argument, and I see that it can lead to a road of works. But how can one rightly believe in Jesus if one doesn't acknowledge one's sin and turn from it? Maybe another thread is in order? This is something I have really been wrestling with lately.
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Post by venge on Apr 10, 2018 12:02:10 GMT -6
venge what youre stating makes this a works based salvation which is not only false but not supported here. There is no amount of repentance that saves you. Just like being baptized doesnt save you (See Acts 2:38). Repent means to change you mind, attitude towards something, not a requisite for salvation. I sincerely ask you to read the dialogue here starting on page 3 (the link should take you there) second post down where Socalexile explains the difference and does so very well. He clearly demostrates the parable of the ten virgins is not about the rapture. If we need to continue to discuss we can move to a new thread No Mike. I am not saying works gets you into heaven. Only grace by faith in Christ. But, without repentance you cannot change. As far as works go, Paul said faith without works IS DEAD. If you have great faith you will do works. As God asked us to be a peculiar people ZEALOUS of good works. Faith with no works and only faith is a Christian whose faith is weak. That is biblical. But, let me remind readers, not by works of righteousness thou hath done gets you to heaven. It is also said not by works let’s any man should boast. But, your works are done because of that faith. I hope that clean s it up. Even John 3:16 said whosoever believeth on him should not perish but have everlasting life Edit: Christ asked us to put on the new man. Turning from sin and striving for good. Christ testimony is that. Prayer, brotherly love, meekness, helping the poor, the sick, the widows, preaching the good news. We are called to the same. Selfless servitude to others. |
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Post by mike on Apr 10, 2018 12:07:08 GMT -6
I will add though that I still have a hard time saying that repentance isn't needed. I see the argument, and I see that it can lead to a road of works. But how can one rightly believe in Jesus if one doesn't acknowledge one's sin and turn from it? Maybe another thread is in order? This is something I have really been wrestling with lately. This is where we end being the judge and not God. Thats is not my role nor yours to determine who is and isnt saved. A heart change is certainly solid evidence for a believer, yet there are many deceivers in this world, yet none can fool God |
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Post by mike on Apr 10, 2018 12:13:39 GMT -6
No Mike. I am not saying works gets you into heaven. Only grace by faith in Christ. But, without repentance you cannot change. As far as works go, Paul said faith without works IS DEAD. If you have great faith you will do works. As God asked us to be a peculiar people ZEALOUS of good works. Faith with no works and only faith is a Christian whose faith is weak. That is biblical. But, let me remind readers, not by works of righteousness thou hath done gets you to heaven. It is also said not by works let’s any man should boast. But, your works are done because of that faith. I hope that clean s it up. Even John 3:16 said whosoever believeth on him should not perish but have everlasting life Edit: Christ asked us to put on the new man. Turning from sin and striving for good. Christ testimony is that. Prayer, brotherly love, meekness, helping the poor, the sick, the widows, preaching the good news. We are called to the same. Selfless servitude to others. Venge - James said Faith without works is dead. What that chapter means is "why have faith if you dont exercise it". If I see someone who is hungry, and dont feed them where is my faith? Many translate this into a works gospel and say "if you have faith you'll do works, you're not showing evidence of works so you're not saved" WRONG! Lets take this to the cross. There were two sinners, criminals hanging there on either side of our Lord. Which one of those had evidence of repentance? What works did one do more than the other to show he had faith? I agree that we should turn from sin. Paul lists many of those habitual sins that drag us down in 1Cor that we should do as the unbelievers do. |
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Post by witness1 on Apr 10, 2018 12:52:42 GMT -6
I will add though that I still have a hard time saying that repentance isn't needed. I see the argument, and I see that it can lead to a road of works. But how can one rightly believe in Jesus if one doesn't acknowledge one's sin and turn from it? Maybe another thread is in order? This is something I have really been wrestling with lately. This is where we end being the judge and not God. Thats is not my role nor yours to determine who is and isnt saved. A heart change is certainly solid evidence for a believer, yet there are many deceivers in this world, yet none can fool God Hopefully you know by now that I'm not trying to determine who is saved and who isn't. Asking for help working through a difficult topic doesn't mean I'm trying to judge anyone. It means I need help in understanding how I am supposed to share the Gospel with someone. Am I to just say, "Once there was this guy named Jesus. In order to be saved, you need to hold the opinion that he died and came back to life. If you do that, you're good to go." Or do I say, "I have good news and bad news. The bad news is that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and you and I are both included in that 'all'. And the worse news is that the wages of sin is death. But the GOOD NEWS is that while we were sinners, Christ died for us. If you believe that God will accept you because of your faith in Jesus, you will be saved." Like I said originally, this is nit picky and it is true that scripture and the Lord will determine who is saved and who isn't. But we also need to understand as much as we can if we are to present a true Gospel to the world. |
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Post by mike on Apr 10, 2018 13:25:49 GMT -6
witness1 I'd say the second one is the better choice. Sometimes we get the time to expound other times maybe not. But a point to consider is that one plants, one water, another reaps. We do what we can and are supposed to. I had a friend who used to say "pray this prayer with me and you'll go to heaven when you die"...I had a problem with that. Some of the people may have believed but others just wanted him to go away. God judges the heart. I didnt mean to come across like you were judging. Yes I think I know you well enough by now. I was speaking in generic terms to the wider audience not singling you out. Sorry if it seemed that way. Convincing a sinner they need a savior is one thing, discipleship is another and the proper step forward. But determining who is saved and who may not is beyond our pay scale. Those who are disciples are even difficult to determine. We each individually know if we believe or not 
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Post by venge on Apr 10, 2018 15:03:07 GMT -6
No Mike. I am not saying works gets you into heaven. Only grace by faith in Christ. But, without repentance you cannot change. As far as works go, Paul said faith without works IS DEAD. If you have great faith you will do works. As God asked us to be a peculiar people ZEALOUS of good works. Faith with no works and only faith is a Christian whose faith is weak. That is biblical. But, let me remind readers, not by works of righteousness thou hath done gets you to heaven. It is also said not by works let’s any man should boast. But, your works are done because of that faith. I hope that clean s it up. Even John 3:16 said whosoever believeth on him should not perish but have everlasting life Edit: Christ asked us to put on the new man. Turning from sin and striving for good. Christ testimony is that. Prayer, brotherly love, meekness, helping the poor, the sick, the widows, preaching the good news. We are called to the same. Selfless servitude to others. Venge - James said Faith without works is dead. What that chapter means is "why have faith if you dont exercise it". If I see someone who is hungry, and dont feed them where is my faith? Many translate this into a works gospel and say "if you have faith you'll do works, you're not showing evidence of works so you're not saved" WRONG! Lets take this to the cross. There were two sinners, criminals hanging there on either side of our Lord. Which one of those had evidence of repentance? What works did one do more than the other to show he had faith? I agree that we should turn from sin. Paul lists many of those habitual sins that drag us down in 1Cor that we should do as the unbelievers do. Excuse me. Yes It was James not Paul. That does not change the fact that I never said works gets you to heaven. Quite the contrary As far as 2 sinners on the cross, only God knows. How can I know their heart? I did not say a Christian that is weak will not be saved or go to heaven. A Christian will want to do righteousness because of their faith. To say that is not true is wrong. Now, a Christian who has faith as small as a mustard seed is able to move mountains...is he not? A Christian that houses the Holy Spirit within him can do all things thru Christ which strengthens him. But there are Christians who slack. There are those who do iniquities. There are those Christ warns in Revelation be careful or I will bolt out your name from the book of life. |
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Post by mike on Apr 10, 2018 15:23:17 GMT -6
Thanks for helping me understand and clear that up Venge, I do appreciate it. I don't want to be in that position when I stand in front almighty God being judged for my works. I do fear some of my works will burn but I will escape the flame. But I can't undo my past, only move forward. You are correct about knowing the hearts of the two thief's, but Jesus told one "this day you will be with me in Paradise" so we can know  |
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Post by venge on Apr 10, 2018 16:15:29 GMT -6
Thanks for helping me understand and clear that up Venge, I do appreciate it. I don't want to be in that position when I stand in front almighty God being judged for my works. I do fear some of my works will burn but I will escape the flame. But I can't undo my past, only move forward. You are correct about knowing the hearts of the two thief's, but Jesus told one "this day you will be with me in Paradise" so we can know Haha but Mike, Jews did not use commas! That’s a discussion for another day |
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Post by witness1 on Apr 11, 2018 15:19:22 GMT -6
witness1 I'd say the second one is the better choice. Sometimes we get the time to expound other times maybe not. But a point to consider is that one plants, one water, another reaps. We do what we can and are supposed to. I had a friend who used to say "pray this prayer with me and you'll go to heaven when you die"...I had a problem with that. Some of the people may have believed but others just wanted him to go away. God judges the heart. I didnt mean to come across like you were judging. Yes I think I know you well enough by now. I was speaking in generic terms to the wider audience not singling you out. Sorry if it seemed that way. Convincing a sinner they need a savior is one thing, discipleship is another and the proper step forward. But determining who is saved and who may not is beyond our pay scale. Those who are disciples are even difficult to determine. We each individually know if we believe or not I see what you are saying now. I am sorry for taking it the wrong way. I try hard to put my best foot forward here and got upset thinking I had come across wrong. Thank you for clarifying |
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Post by fitz on Apr 11, 2018 19:01:15 GMT -6
It interesting that Mike mentions the thief on the cross. This fellow has come to my mind many, many times over the past few months. It's because I hear so many people today preaching a "partial rapture"...or literally trying to scare the hell out of people with a "Jesus is coming soon! Repent, for the day is at hand!" message. Heavy on "repentance", light on grace.
Faith without works is dead. The evidence we are true believers is that we act, at least somewhat, Christ-like. If we look no different than we looked before we were saved, chances are good there has been no genuine conversion. But it's a slippery slope when we try to look at others and make that determination. However, if we have received the Holy Spirit, we do change, and we do exhibit good works. You can't help but become more like Jesus, because He is changing you, and that is the key here. It just happens to everyone that really loves the Lord. And we also do it out of our own strength, because we just really want to serve God and feed His sheep.
I'll say it again...It's all a work of God. Justification, Sanctification and Glorification. Praise God...He has done it all, because we cannot.
So the thief is a great example. He didn't have time to change. He didn't have time to serve at the soup kitchen, or give to the poor, or help a little old lady across the street. He didn't even get baptized! Nope, he died the same day Jesus died.
As to the comma...big debate:
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Here's my take on it: To me it means the thief went to heaven the second He died. The comma belongs right where it is. Jesus knew they both would die that very day, so there was no need for him to use the word "Today" in that sense. Jesus was fond of saying "Verily I say unto thee..."...like a lot...so, why would he change that signature phrase on this one instance (on the cross no less)? I don't think he did.
Also, Jesus is God...omnipresent. He can be in billions of places at the same time (and He is). But strictly speaking...His body was in the tomb, not His soul/spirit. It's the same for believers that die in Christ. Absent from the body, present with the Lord. Body in the grave, soul/spirit in heaven. The comma is in the right place.
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Post by brandon on Apr 11, 2018 19:51:03 GMT -6
Regarding the thief on the cross, I read this from embassyofjesus.com last year.
Luke 23: 39-43
39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done
nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee,
To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
“We receive the due reward of our deeds”: He confesses his sins,admitting his wrongs, and that they are worthy of death.
“Lord”: He recognizes Jesus as Lord.
“Remember me”: He puts his hopes in Jesus’s mercy.
“When thou comest into thy kingdom”: He recognizes Jesus to be the King of the jews, the eternal Messiah who must resurrect and
enter in his kingdom.
“To day shalt thou be with me in paradise”: Jesus promises him a place with him in paradise, that very day.
This man, who lived a life worthy of death, was not baptised, did not have good works, all he had was his Repentance (to admit his wrongs toward God) and his Faith in Jesus: that Jesus can “remember him”.
Jesus only saves those who admit that they need him to be saved!
My Conclusion - As seen in Romans 3:25, its all about faith in Jesus blood. Do you agree with God's assessment that you are a sinner deserving of death and have you received the faith to understand that Jesus died not for any sins he committed, but rather for our sins?
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