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Post by fitz on Apr 8, 2018 14:08:26 GMT -6
Oh, actually most of us here are pretty serious. We are watching for Jesus. Most of us here are Pre-trib. Now, I know that you lean more Post-Trib. With all due respect, there is nothing to watch for if you are Post-Trib. Just wait for STHTF, then count 7 years.  But Jesus said to "watch". Because we aren't reserved for God's wrath. The Tribulation is for Jacob, not the church. So, he is coming for us soon, and we are trying to figure out when that might be. Nothing for me to watch for? I am watching for the signs as we are told to watch and not to lose our loins. Keep them girdled. The time of Jacobs trouble is not till the AoD goes up. Christ said in Matthew 24 after the AoD THEN there will be great Tribulation. Daniel said after Michael stands up there would be a time of trouble like no other, the same words Christ used. Both times reflect the time following the AoD. All the time before that you will experience. Blessed is he that makes it to the 1335 day. That is after the AoD. He comes with power and great glory. Our blessed hope of salvation from a period of persecution. With the sound of a trumpet, the last trump, the trump of God. Gathering together his elect from the 4 winds or basically from one side of heaven to the other. Or the following verses that follow the above verse, Verse 40 and 41 describe the rapture. 1 taken and 1 was left. If it isn't rapture what is it? Even Tim LaHaye of his left behind Pre Trib movie shows that. In the days of Noah what happened? Wickedness was on the earth but so was Noahs family that did good. Noah wasn't taken yet. People were living their lives out with marriage and eating etc but wickedness still was around. UNTILL the day Noah entered in the ark and knew not the flood came. So we will be in a wicked world till the rapture comes but the flood and Gods wrath does not happen till the trumpets. Remember, we are children of the light therefore he wont come on us like a thief in the night when they say peace and safety then sudden destruction. We will know it and see it because we study it showing ourself approved, putting on the whole armor of God seeking righteousness and sanctification. Thank you. I am a bit confused on your position. In the other thread I asked if your rapture theory was Mid-Trib or Pre-Wrath. You said you leaned toward Post-Trib. In my mind Post-Trib would essentially be no rapture as this is the second coming, then the Millennial reign. A "Post-Trib rapture" has never made any sense to me because why would Jesus come, rapture us into the clouds, then set his feet down on the Mount of Olives, us following. That's a quick up/down trip. If His saints follow him at the second coming, doesn't that necessitate us being in heaven for some time prior to this event? I think one thing muddling this is that I believe in a 7 year tribulation. 3 1/2 years > AoD > 3 1/2 years with the final 42 months being the "Great Tribulation". You seem to be saying the entire tribulation period is 3 1/2 years (what I see as the last half). Do I have this correct? |
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Post by venge on Apr 8, 2018 14:40:25 GMT -6
Nothing for me to watch for? I am watching for the signs as we are told to watch and not to lose our loins. Keep them girdled. The time of Jacobs trouble is not till the AoD goes up. Christ said in Matthew 24 after the AoD THEN there will be great Tribulation. Daniel said after Michael stands up there would be a time of trouble like no other, the same words Christ used. Both times reflect the time following the AoD. All the time before that you will experience. Blessed is he that makes it to the 1335 day. That is after the AoD. He comes with power and great glory. Our blessed hope of salvation from a period of persecution. With the sound of a trumpet, the last trump, the trump of God. Gathering together his elect from the 4 winds or basically from one side of heaven to the other. Or the following verses that follow the above verse, Verse 40 and 41 describe the rapture. 1 taken and 1 was left. If it isn't rapture what is it? Even Tim LaHaye of his left behind Pre Trib movie shows that. In the days of Noah what happened? Wickedness was on the earth but so was Noahs family that did good. Noah wasn't taken yet. People were living their lives out with marriage and eating etc but wickedness still was around. UNTILL the day Noah entered in the ark and knew not the flood came. So we will be in a wicked world till the rapture comes but the flood and Gods wrath does not happen till the trumpets. Remember, we are children of the light therefore he wont come on us like a thief in the night when they say peace and safety then sudden destruction. We will know it and see it because we study it showing ourself approved, putting on the whole armor of God seeking righteousness and sanctification. Thank you. I am a bit confused on your position. In the other thread I asked if your rapture theory was Mid-Trib or Pre-Wrath. You said you leaned toward Post-Trib. In my mind Post-Trib would essentially be no rapture as this is the second coming, then the Millennial reign. A "Post-Trib rapture" has never made any sense to me because why would Jesus come, rapture us into the clouds, then set his feet down on the Mount of Olives, us following. That's a quick up/down trip. If His saints follow him at the second coming, doesn't that necessitate us being in heaven for some time prior to this event? I think one thing muddling this is that I believe in a 7 year tribulation. 3 1/2 years > AoD > 3 1/2 years with the final 42 months being the "Great Tribulation". You seem to be saying the entire tribulation period is 3 1/2 years (what I see as the last half). Do I have this correct? Not really. The text is certain it is 7 years. But the AoD is not set up in the middle like you have it. 3.5 then AoD then 3.5. The text states in the "midst". That is proximity to the middle. But not an exact mid point. It could fall in the end of the first 3.5 or the beginning of the last 3.5. The entire Tribulation is not 3.5 years in my opinion. Seals 1-4 are called Time of Sorrow or the Birth Pangs. We could call it little tribulation I suppose. But the Great tribulation spoken of by Daniel as "there will be a time ...that has never been..." and Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24, that is the Great Tribulation and it happens after the AoD is set up, not before. We don't know the length of it but it is cut short! Therefore, knowing that it is a short period of time, it will not be 3.5 years. Jesus then says, Immediately after the Tribulation (the great tribulation) we have the astral events in Rev Chapter 6. You still have the Trumpets and Bowls to go thru. Which need more time. The issue is we don't know when the AoD starts in relation to what seal. That causes a problem. If the AoD happens in seal 2 for example, then we know from seal 2-6 is Great tribulation but it still isn't the entire 3.5 years. We do know this, from the time the daily is taken away and the AoD is set up, there will be 1290 days....45 days later at 1335 ...blessed is he who makes it there. So 45 days after it is up could be the answer as in 45 days of Great Tribulation which followed the 1200 and whatever many days of little tribulation. |
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Post by fitz on Apr 8, 2018 15:26:26 GMT -6
Thank you. I am a bit confused on your position. In the other thread I asked if your rapture theory was Mid-Trib or Pre-Wrath. You said you leaned toward Post-Trib. In my mind Post-Trib would essentially be no rapture as this is the second coming, then the Millennial reign. A "Post-Trib rapture" has never made any sense to me because why would Jesus come, rapture us into the clouds, then set his feet down on the Mount of Olives, us following. That's a quick up/down trip. If His saints follow him at the second coming, doesn't that necessitate us being in heaven for some time prior to this event? I think one thing muddling this is that I believe in a 7 year tribulation. 3 1/2 years > AoD > 3 1/2 years with the final 42 months being the "Great Tribulation". You seem to be saying the entire tribulation period is 3 1/2 years (what I see as the last half). Do I have this correct? Not really. The text is certain it is 7 years. But the AoD is not set up in the middle like you have it. 3.5 then AoD then 3.5. The text states in the "midst". That is proximity to the middle. But not an exact mid point. It could fall in the end of the first 3.5 or the beginning of the last 3.5. The entire Tribulation is not 3.5 years in my opinion. Seals 1-4 are called Time of Sorrow or the Birth Pangs. We could call it little tribulation I suppose. But the Great tribulation spoken of by Daniel as "there will be a time ...that has never been..." and Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24, that is the Great Tribulation and it happens after the AoD is set up, not before. We don't know the length of it but it is cut short! Therefore, knowing that it is a short period of time, it will not be 3.5 years. Jesus then says, Immediately after the Tribulation (the great tribulation) we have the astral events in Rev Chapter 6. You still have the Trumpets and Bowls to go thru. Which need more time. The issue is we don't know when the AoD starts in relation to what seal. That causes a problem. If the AoD happens in seal 2 for example, then we know from seal 2-6 is Great tribulation but it still isn't the entire 3.5 years. We do know this, from the time the daily is taken away and the AoD is set up, there will be 1290 days....45 days later at 1335 ...blessed is he who makes it there. So 45 days after it is up could be the answer as in 45 days of Great Tribulation which followed the 1200 and whatever many days of little tribulation. Edit: I am under the opinion that the daily will be taken away in Seal 1 when the antichrist on the white horse goes forth conquering and to conquer. he is already established in his empire and now he is pushing his agenda on other countries. So if you look at it that way, say he starts day 1 at the 1st seal, add 1290 days. puts is 30 days past the mid point. 45 days later or 45+30 = 75 days over the mid point into the 2nd half of Daniels 70th week is one possibility. Leaving the rest for 14 judgements Ok, thank you again. I think I see where you are coming from. For me, the Pre-Trib position (i.e. NO Tribulation...be it "little" or Great) makes the most sense. In Luke 21:28 Jesus seems to indicate that "our redemption"...I think a clear reference to the rapture...occurs when the preceding mentioned events "begin" to take place. Many, myself included, believe we are already seeing birth pangs. We've always had "tribulation" in this sinful world, but we can see that evil is increasing, as are earthquakes, wars and rumors of wars, etc. But, even a "little" tribulation, that first 3 1/2 year period it seems would be much more severe than what we are experiencing at the present time. Also in Luke 21:36 Jesus tells us that we may, through prayer, be able to escape "all these things that shall come to pass" and stand in His presence. That sounds a lot like a pre-trib rapture to me. No? Paul tells the Thessalonians in 1 Thess. 4:18 to "comfort one another" regarding these end times events...directly following his description of the rapture. So I wonder, what comfort do we find in suffering through even a single minute of the tribulation? And furthermore, what would God accomplish in making this particular generation endure it? We know that Christians for 2000 years have at times suffered persecution/tribulation. But Jesus sets this time apart from all others saying it as has never been, nor shall be since the creation. Sounds like a time of suffering beyond comprehension. Indeed, the judgments coming as described in Revelation are nothing less than horrific...unimaginable. Far worse than anything men have endured to this time. So why make His bride suffer through any part of it? |
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Post by venge on Apr 8, 2018 17:56:02 GMT -6
Not really. The text is certain it is 7 years. But the AoD is not set up in the middle like you have it. 3.5 then AoD then 3.5. The text states in the "midst". That is proximity to the middle. But not an exact mid point. It could fall in the end of the first 3.5 or the beginning of the last 3.5. The entire Tribulation is not 3.5 years in my opinion. Seals 1-4 are called Time of Sorrow or the Birth Pangs. We could call it little tribulation I suppose. But the Great tribulation spoken of by Daniel as "there will be a time ...that has never been..." and Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24, that is the Great Tribulation and it happens after the AoD is set up, not before. We don't know the length of it but it is cut short! Therefore, knowing that it is a short period of time, it will not be 3.5 years. Jesus then says, Immediately after the Tribulation (the great tribulation) we have the astral events in Rev Chapter 6. You still have the Trumpets and Bowls to go thru. Which need more time. The issue is we don't know when the AoD starts in relation to what seal. That causes a problem. If the AoD happens in seal 2 for example, then we know from seal 2-6 is Great tribulation but it still isn't the entire 3.5 years. We do know this, from the time the daily is taken away and the AoD is set up, there will be 1290 days....45 days later at 1335 ...blessed is he who makes it there. So 45 days after it is up could be the answer as in 45 days of Great Tribulation which followed the 1200 and whatever many days of little tribulation. s Ok, thank you again. I think I see where you are coming from. For me, the Pre-Trib position (i.e. NO Tribulation...be it "little" or Great) makes the most sense. In Luke 21:28 Jesus seems to indicate that "our redemption"...I think a clear reference to the rapture...occurs when the preceding mentioned events "begin" to take place. Many, myself included, believe we are already seeing birth pangs. We've always had "tribulation" in this sinful world, but we can see that evil is increasing, as are earthquakes, wars and rumors of wars, etc. But, even a "little" tribulation, that first 3 1/2 year period it seems would be much more severe than what we are experiencing at the present time. Also in Luke 21:36 Jesus tells us that we may, through prayer, be able to escape "all these things that shall come to pass" and stand in His presence. That sounds a lot like a pre-trib rapture to me. No? Paul tells the Thessalonians in 1 Thess. 4:18 to "comfort one another" regarding these end times events...directly following his description of the rapture. So I wonder, what comfort do we find in suffering through even a single minute of the tribulation? And furthermore, what would God accomplish in making this particular generation endure it? We know that Christians for 2000 years have at times suffered persecution/tribulation. But Jesus sets this time apart from all others saying it as has never been, nor shall be since the creation. Sounds like a time of suffering beyond comprehension. Indeed, the judgments coming as described in Revelation are nothing less than horrific...unimaginable. Far worse than anything men have endured to this time. So why make His bride suffer through any part of it? In regards to Luke, Jesus spoke of not being children of light but falling away and then being in darkness to where you would be overcome like a thief in the night. So he is telling you to not lose face and stay the course even in adversity and you will make it. Remember the. Parable of the 10 virgins. Five virgins knew of God but did not take the Oil. And when the Son of Man came because they did not have any oil the door was shut. They were not raptured. And the Lord says depart for me ye who work iniquity. They were sinners even though they might’ve had some belief. Now I realize we are all sinners but these particular virgins did not leave their sin. They were not trying to repent or put on the new man. 1 Thess 4:18 If you start at verse 13 then you will see that Paul is talking to his disciples at that specific church because they are worried that they will never see their loved ones again those who have fallen asleep. But as it goes down he talks about Christ coming back in the resurrection. And after he describes Christ and he describes the resurrection he’s telling them comfort yourself with these words. You will see your lost love ones again you can have faith that those who labored with you in Christ will be in heaven . Sadly, this verse is use wrongly in a different context that was not meant to be. But reading it from verse 13 to 18 carefully you will see that he was writing to them to let them know not to worry about those who died it’s a comfort themselves knowing that they will be in heaven |
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Post by fitz on Apr 9, 2018 4:29:53 GMT -6
Ok Venge. I see your position, though I cannot agree with it. For me, the whole Post-Trib line of thinking becomes a matter of degrees of sanctification, in and of ourselves. I mean, to what degree shall we suffer to prove our worthiness? How much oil in our lamps is enough? How do we know? Do I need to be martyred or is just suffering through some really awful hardship enough? How many weak ones (think women and children) will not be able to refuse taking the mark under such extreme duress, the threat of starvation, torture and presumably execution? This horror show makes this age of Grace seem a whole lot less graceful, doesn't it? For what purpose would God allow this? If He saved Lot (who was kind of a loser), why wouldn't He save his bride?
You see, it becomes a works based thing. It becomes me and my righteousness rather than His righteousness. But, this I know...I am the righteousness of God in Christ, right now...today. Not because of anything I have done or can do, but because of what Christ has done. And I think that applies to my Justification AND Sanctification AND ultimate Glorification. It's all about Jesus, and zero about me. So again I ask, what purpose is there for God to require His bride to go through the tribulation? The Church knows who the Messiah is and have gladly believed and received. It is finished! However, the Jews have not. They rejected Him. This time is for them (and the heathen), not for us.
We could go back and forth forever, but these things have been debated in the Church for years and years, ad nauseum. No point in replicating that debate here. Let us agree to disagree. If you are right, I'll be a sad puppy, but I'll understand what is required. If I am right, you'll be standing in heaven in the twinkling of an eye, quite surprised.
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Post by disciple4life on Apr 9, 2018 6:13:19 GMT -6
Oh, actually most of us here are pretty serious. We are watching for Jesus. Most of us here are Pre-trib. Now, I know that you lean more Post-Trib. With all due respect, there is nothing to watch for if you are Post-Trib. Just wait for STHTF, then count 7 years. But Jesus said to "watch". Because we aren't reserved for God's wrath. The Tribulation is for Jacob, not the church. So, he is coming for us soon, and we are trying to figure out when that might be. Nothing for me to watch for? I am watching for the signs as we are told to watch and not to lose our loins. Keep them girdled. The time of Jacobs trouble is not till the AoD goes up. Christ said in Matthew 24 after the AoD THEN there will be great Tribulation. Daniel said after Michael stands up there would be a time of trouble like no other, the same words Christ used. Both times reflect the time following the AoD. All the time before that you will experience. Blessed is he that makes it to the 1335 day. That is after the AoD. He comes with power and great glory. Our blessed hope of salvation from a period of persecution. With the sound of a trumpet, the last trump, the trump of God. Gathering together his elect from the 4 winds or basically from one side of heaven to the other. Or the following verses that follow the above verse, Verse 40 and 41 describe the rapture. 1 taken and 1 was left. If it isn't rapture what is it? Even Tim LaHaye of his left behind Pre Trib movie shows that. In the days of Noah what happened? Wickedness was on the earth but so was Noahs family that did good. Noah wasn't taken yet. People were living their lives out with marriage and eating etc but wickedness still was around. UNTILL the day Noah entered in the ark and knew not the flood came. So we will be in a wicked world till the rapture comes but the flood and Gods wrath does not happen till the trumpets. Remember, we are children of the light therefore he wont come on us like a thief in the night when they say peace and safety then sudden destruction. We will know it and see it because we study it showing ourself approved, putting on the whole armor of God seeking righteousness and sanctification. Hello my brother, venge. You make some very good points. I'm not a moderator - so I may be mistaken on this. It's not required to hold a pre-trib rapture view, although I would say most do. I would really like to know more about this view. I agree with your point and concerns about numerology, and I would add in Strong's numbers, pyramid angles, and combining parts of numbers from Hebrew years with license plates that have 33 or 153, etc.
This is only my take - I don't speak for anyone else. ;-) The thing about the Abomination of Desolation you mention, is that scripture refers to the second half as the "Great Tribulation" Second 3 1/2 year period. This second half is when the Barsch hits the fan. For the 1st half, the Jewish people will be deceived by the AntiChrist and when the Abom of Desolation happens, their eyes will be open - Don't forget, we have the two witnesses in the first half - Godzilla brothers breathing fire and can't be killed.
***This is a question that none of the mid -trib or pre-wrath people can answer. We have instagram, twitter and FB and dozens of other picture and social media platforms. This would be world news in 12 hrs. - We also have all the tools and instruments and priests for the Temple, but no actual temple construction started. - Damascus is almost a ruinous heap, but is not uninhabitable. When you think about it, this is why there are two different day counts. 1260 = 3 1/2 Hebrew years 3 x 360 + 180 [half a year] and then we also have 1290 = 3 1/2 Hebrew or prophetic years with a leap month. This is because the leap year comes 9 times in 19 years. This also perfectly parallels Christ's ministry of 3 1/2 years, and is a perfect parallel of the Hebrew wedding where the Bridegroom - Bridegroom comes with a shout (Same Hebrew word Teruah, which means both Shout and Blast as of a Trumpet - thus Yom Teruah. Feast of Trumpets/ Day of Shouting.
- Bridegroom takes his bride and hides her away - hidden in the chupa for 7 days. hmmmmm and
- then returns with his bride for the marriage supper.
- On the Feast of trumpets, - it is the "day that no one knows the day or hour" -- Why ?? Because this is the only feast - that begins on the sighting of the new moon. And there has to be two witnesses in Jerusalem, and then they sound the trumpets. 99 blasts-- 3 distinctly different sound patterns, and then there is "the Last Trumpet" which has a specific name in Hebrew, and is the last 100Th blast, - it goes as long as the trumpeter has breath. ;-)
- The only thing that Sodom and Noah/ Great Flood have in common besides sin is that there was a warning for the righteous - for those watching.
Just like you said - my brother. ;-) Paul said that we are children of the day- and that for us - the Day of Christ, /rapture / harpazo will not surprise us like a thief.
Maranatha
Disciple4life.
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Post by witness1 on Apr 9, 2018 6:51:16 GMT -6
disciple4life , wondering if you could tell me what scripture supports the idea that the Jews will be deceived by the antichrist and that their eyes will be opened when the AoD happens. I feel frustrated with these ideas that seem to be so prevalent amongst the churches when I don't see any evidence of this scripturally. Don't get me wrong... I'm 100% pre-trib... we will be in heaven for seals 1-7, but I just don't see this anywhere. Do you know where this idea comes from?
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Post by witness1 on Apr 9, 2018 7:26:50 GMT -6
Thank you. I am a bit confused on your position. In the other thread I asked if your rapture theory was Mid-Trib or Pre-Wrath. You said you leaned toward Post-Trib. In my mind Post-Trib would essentially be no rapture as this is the second coming, then the Millennial reign. A "Post-Trib rapture" has never made any sense to me because why would Jesus come, rapture us into the clouds, then set his feet down on the Mount of Olives, us following. That's a quick up/down trip. If His saints follow him at the second coming, doesn't that necessitate us being in heaven for some time prior to this event? I think one thing muddling this is that I believe in a 7 year tribulation. 3 1/2 years > AoD > 3 1/2 years with the final 42 months being the "Great Tribulation". You seem to be saying the entire tribulation period is 3 1/2 years (what I see as the last half). Do I have this correct? But the AoD is not set up in the middle like you have it. 3.5 then AoD then 3.5. The text states in the "midst". That is proximity to the middle. But not an exact mid point. It could fall in the end of the first 3.5 or the beginning of the last 3.5. The entire Tribulation is not 3.5 years in my opinion. Seals 1-4 are called Time of Sorrow or the Birth Pangs. We could call it little tribulation I suppose. But the Great tribulation spoken of by Daniel as "there will be a time ...that has never been..." and Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24, that is the Great Tribulation and it happens after the AoD is set up, not before. We don't know the length of it but it is cut short! Therefore, knowing that it is a short period of time, it will not be 3.5 years. Jesus then says, Immediately after the Tribulation (the great tribulation) we have the astral events in Rev Chapter 6. You still have the Trumpets and Bowls to go thru. Which need more time. The issue is we don't know when the AoD starts in relation to what seal. That causes a problem. If the AoD happens in seal 2 for example, then we know from seal 2-6 is Great tribulation but it still isn't the entire 3.5 years. We do know this, from the time the daily is taken away and the AoD is set up, there will be 1290 days....45 days later at 1335 ...blessed is he who makes it there. So 45 days after it is up could be the answer as in 45 days of Great Tribulation which followed the 1200 and whatever many days of little tribulation. , I am really, really loving your ideas. Thank you so much for joining us and taking the time to explain the beast kingdoms so well. It really is a breath of fresh air, and everything you've said has been excellent in pushing back with scripture against what I believe to be some very false beliefs about how things will shape up. And I say this without a hint of disdain toward anyone who holds the views that have been accepted thus far... these are difficult prophecies we are dealing with, that God Himself said were sealed, and I think we will only understand things fully when we all come together in love and learn what piece of the puzzle God has given to each person. I think He gave you the piece of the beasts, which is something I've been scratching my head at for 6 months. But since you've done such a great job of pushing back with scripture, I would like to do the same here. Can you tell me where it is clear that the tribulation is 7 years? Because I just don't see it anywhere. I repeatedly see a time, times, and half a time. 1260 days. 42 months. It is important to see that the beast ONLY has power for 42 months. How can we reconcile this with 7 years? Does he have authority in the first half of the 7 years or the second? Or is it possible that the entire thing is only 3.5 years? I am wondering if you have read my ideas that the 1st half of Daniel's 70th week was fulfilled with Jesus' 3.5 year ministry and if so, what you think of it. I believe that the church age has been a grand pause in the middle of Daniel's 70th week, which means that the kingdom you have described will arise soon, that the abomination of desolation will occur soon, and perhaps that the antichrist will be revealed soon. And in "soon" I mean within the next 3 years. BUT, I think the antichrist will become the 11th horn like I just learned from you AT the 1st seal, and I firmly believe that we are the 24 elders who are in heaven to witness Jesus opening the seals. Most people can't understand how I can be pre-trib but also believe that we will see the antichrist revealed and believe that we will see the abomination of desolation before the rapture. But, if we can give a good hard look at Daniel 9:27 (I have studied this as extensively as it sounds like you have studied the beast kingdoms), we can see that perhaps all of our ideas and hills we are each willing to die on, in fact, reconcile with each other. Interestingly, the word "cease" in Daniel 9:27 is "shabath" and often means "sabbath rest". It is used in reference to God resting on the 7th day of creation, letting the land rest on the 7th year, and the commandment to keep the sabbath. It was used when the manna ceased to fall from heaven because other food was available (Joshua 5:12), and it is used in Ezekiel 16:41 when Israel stops playing the whore. It does have other meanings as well, but it seems often to be used that something ceases because it has been completed. Daniel 9:27, to me, says that sacrifice and offering cease because it has been completed. The sacrifice and offering can rest because the work has been accomplished. This is not about the antichrist putting an end to abominable sacrifices in a rebuilt temple. It is about Messiah ceasing the need for sacrifice and offering IN THE MIDDLE OF THE 70th WEEK, when He was cut off. This happened 2000 years ago, and I believe we have been "on pause" since then. When the pause button is pushed again, we, as first fruits of creation, will resurrect in the rapture just like Jesus and those who rose with Him. Then He will open the 1st seal, the antichrist will join the beast kingdom, and the Great Tribulation will begin. unsealed.boards.net/post/20313/thread |
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Post by boraddict on Apr 9, 2018 7:35:37 GMT -6
Thank you Venge for your posting. One thing that you mentioned is the 1335 days. I guess it was the way you said it that made me think that it is possible for the count for the 1335 days to be at the beginning of the seven years.
ie. Venge said "Nothing for me to watch for? I am watching for the signs as we are told to watch and not to lose our loins. Keep them girdled. The time of Jacobs trouble is not till the AoD goes up. Christ said in Matthew 24 after the AoD THEN there will be great Tribulation. Daniel said after Michael stands up there would be a time of trouble like no other, the same words Christ used. Both times reflect the time following the AoD. All the time before that you will experience. Blessed is he that makes it to the 1335 day. That is after the AoD.
"
I had always assumed that the 1335 days was at the end of the seven years. So the question pertains to the AoD. Does the AoD take place at the beginning, mid point, or the end of the seven years of tribulation? That is, if the 1335 is from the beginning of the seven years and the mid point is 1260, then blessed are those that make it 75 days past the mid point. Venge, am I understanding you correctly?
I like this conclusion although I have not worked out the details.
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Post by mike on Apr 9, 2018 8:47:25 GMT -6
D4L you are correct in your assumption that it is not required of this site to hold a pre-trib belief. It is a believe that the rapture is pre-millennial. The three forum rules can be found here for those not familiar. As i'm reading through this and a few of the other threads the idea of setting up and pinning three separate "Rapture" posts came to mind. One each for Pre, Mid (including pre-wrath) and Post. Thoughts? would that keep the thought processes to a single topic and the 'debates' of which to other areas? |
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Post by venge on Apr 9, 2018 9:07:30 GMT -6
Just saw both your comments. Will try to address them when I get home. Hopefully tonight so that I may present them with scripture. I prefer it that way so you can read it and decide if it’s correct yourself.
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Post by brandon on Apr 10, 2018 9:23:57 GMT -6
Shouldn't studying scripture be fun? How do you define numerology?
I am quite serious about watching for the return of Jesus Christ. If studying how God uses numbers in the Bible is a crime, then you may sentence me guilty. I believe the Bible shows repeated patterns of numbers for a purpose and the purpose is to give Him the glory. Even if such speculation cannot be known by us to right in advance, that doesn't mean that some lost soul after the rapture might not in hindsight look back at such speculative research and come to see God's hand at work. Alternatively, maybe someone reading such speculation may consider the possible nearness of Jesus's return and be motivated to witness to that person that they just keep putting off.
In my opinion, there is a very large difference between say the horoscope following, Zodiac nutcases that believe in a pagan misrepresentation of the stars, versus the wise men in the Bible who sought out the Messiah by knowing the Bible and watching the stars. Those following the "Revelations 12 Sign" follow on the heels of the wise men during Jesus birth.
Likewise, there is a difference between looking at the foreshadowing God has put forth in his Word and how he uses numbers, verses the satanic flip everything over and inside out crowd, that tries to connect everything to Saturn and Satan. The mathematical precision that God has used to make this world and his awesome utilization of numbers in not only creation, but also in history, and also in the Bible, just proves how incredibly sovereign, omniscient, and omnipotent He is, wouldn't you agree?
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Post by mike on Apr 10, 2018 9:53:21 GMT -6
I must have missed this earlier but I want to point out that this appears to be missing some defining elements
While I do understand this topic can be touchy and I certainly do not want to derail this thread, but I must comment.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
There is no amount of trying to repent that saves someone. It is only and will always be ONLY the blood of Christ. Some struggle with sin everyday and wake up feeling condemned due to statements like "you didnt repent of your sin, cuz youre still doing it, so you should examine your relationship with God, maybe youre not saved". Paul tackles this issue in Romans 8 to begin verse 1 says [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Venge you said in another post (False Prophet thread) that when "people who twist Gods word into things it is not acceptable...It is insulting to God and I take offense." I am not saying you are doing that at all, but as you feel that way, I do take offense as well. We either believe and are saved or we dont (believe). God judges our hearts, I certainly do not. Again I am not saying you are deliberately doing that. If we need to take that topic to a new thread we can discuss or I can link to areas where we've discussed in times past and continue on an existing thread. However I dont others reading along to think that they "are bad Christians" or "maybe I'm not saved" because they didnt try hard enough.
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Post by venge on Apr 10, 2018 10:25:32 GMT -6
I must have missed this earlier but I want to point out that this appears to be missing some defining elements While I do understand this topic can be touchy and I certainly do not want to derail this thread, but I must comment. Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. There is no amount of trying to repent that saves someone. It is only and will always be ONLY the blood of Christ. Some struggle with sin everyday and wake up feeling condemned due to statements like "you didnt repent of your sin, cuz youre still doing it, so you should examine your relationship with God, maybe youre not saved". Paul tackles this issue in Romans 8 to begin verse 1 says [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Venge you said in another post (False Prophet thread) that when " people who twist Gods word into things it is not acceptable...It is insulting to God and I take offense." I am not saying you are doing that at all, but as you feel that way, I do take offense as well. We either believe and are saved or we dont (believe). God judges our hearts, I certainly do not. Again I am not saying you are deliberately doing that. If we need to take that topic to a new thread we can discuss or I can link to areas where we've discussed in times past and continue on an existing thread. However I dont others reading along to think that they "are bad Christians" or "maybe I'm not saved" because they didnt try hard enough. Mike, The Lord says to them: depart from me ye who work iniquity. They were still sinful. That means they did not repent because we all sin even after salvation but those who don’t repent and live in their sin find no mistake in it and love the sin more then truth. For by the wages of sin is death. Sin is separation from God. The 5 virgins had a lamp and in proverbs it is defined as the commandments of God but they took no oil at the end. Oil in proverbs is defined as wisdom, knowledge and instruction. And the beginning of wisdom is the fear of God. Lastly, the light in the lantern once someone has oil is Christ, the word of God. He keeps you in the light and out of darkness ie. Wickedness. The door shuts on them because they have no light. How can you truley have Christ and live in sin without repentance? For God said true repentance is with a broken and contrite heart. When we look at the wedding feast that only believers can attend, why does God ask one who came where is your clothes? Because the righteous saints are given white linen robes. He has none. And it is said he will be cast into utter darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. |
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Post by witness1 on Apr 10, 2018 11:12:40 GMT -6
The issue here is one that has been circling around for awhile now and I also have been struggling with. Does one need to repent to be saved? Many say no. Many say that all verses about salvation merely say you must believe in Jesus and confess He is Lord. Nothing about repentance in those verses. They say “repentance is a work”, and works are not necessary for salvation. Others make good arguments that one must acknowledge one’s sin in order to rightly believe in Jesus and therefore believe that salvation is even needed. And that this implies repentance. But then you get to the question of, “Am I repenting enough?” “Am I fearing the Lord enough?” And then it seems to becomes subjective and something you can lose or go back and forth on... which almost implies it’s not essential to salvation but only for reward. It’s a really difficult, nit picky topic. Which is why Revelation 11:1-2 teaches us that the measuring stick of scripture (the reed) will measure the temple of God. Who is protected in the inner court and who is left in the outer court to be trampled? Scripture will determine the line between “belief” and “repentance” and what is necessary for salvation.
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