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Post by cwood85 on Feb 26, 2018 22:25:14 GMT -6
I don't think there is going to be a one world ruling anti christ. Anti christ has been here from the beginning after Jesus was crucified as stated in 1st John, and has always been a corporate entity. To me and what I have read does not indicate a one super power supreme ruling individual...
Anti Christ literally means to deny Christ. Religions do that, individual non believers do that, people who solely believe in their works over Christ are anti Christ and so on. Religions offer flattery, riches, false gospels, all with lying wonders to get people and give their money to their mega church. The TV preachers who "healed" people and were found to be frauds and just filling their pockets. Not saying the healing power of God isn't real.
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Post by witness1 on Feb 26, 2018 22:38:21 GMT -6
Don’t let me forget to do a post on this soon... the Connor book talks about this! Going from memory, Antichrist is a spirit, an entity, AND a person. Much like we have a King and we are His priests and we also have the Holy Spirit. Something like that. So there is an antichrist spirit but I feel that scripture is pretty clear that there will be one individual who counterfeits Messiah. There is a great chart and explanation in the book that really helped make sense of this, although clearly the quick glance I took at it wasn’t enough to understand it well enough to explain it! I will start a thread soon because this is a very important topic... what is antichrist?
Here’s what I think is clear though: antichrist spirit goes out from the church, and that is what I personally am praying about right now: that I will know the truth.
18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge.
21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. - 1 John 2:18-22
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Post by kjs on Feb 27, 2018 7:51:37 GMT -6
Also... my Messiah isn't dead and I know yours isn't either... so I'm not understanding this argument my friend. Of Course Jesus Christ is not dead -- that is the glorious news -- He was raised!!!! The point I'm attempting to make is the literal text states the anointed One is cut off (put to death)..... There is no hindsight being used here, nor foresight -- knowing that the anointed one does NOT STAY DEAD...... (doing something like that is reading into the text) Based on TEXT alone --- the anointed one is dead ---- Therefore the HE being refereed to in the later sentences CANNOT be the dead person -- so based simply on how the text is written it has to refer to the ruler who comes.... ------------ As far as the two time periods overlapping ..... Not sure how that would possible --- since one refers to the BEGINNING (or Start) whereas the other refers to the DURING............ |
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Post by kjs on Feb 27, 2018 8:11:42 GMT -6
I don't think there is going to be a one world ruling anti christ. Anti christ has been here from the beginning after Jesus was crucified as stated in 1st John, and has always been a corporate entity. To me and what I have read does not indicate a one super power supreme ruling individual... Anti Christ literally means to deny Christ. Religions do that, individual non believers do that, people who solely believe in their works over Christ are anti Christ and so on. Religions offer flattery, riches, false gospels, all with lying wonders to get people and give their money to their mega church. The TV preachers who "healed" people and were found to be frauds and just filling their pockets. Not saying the healing power of God isn't real. So you are of the opinion that the Revelation 13 beast -- is more a "world system" then actually one Man? And it is the "system" that will be defeated at the return of Jesus? Just trying to understand what is being said here....... |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Feb 27, 2018 8:41:59 GMT -6
kjs sorry if it sounded confusing..@gps said it better. There is the Act of what Christ did on the Cross as a means to the end of sacrifice of animals and grain offerings, and then those that were opposed to Christ put Him to death creating the very thing that God wanted, an end to sacrifice and grain offering. It confirms that God has the foreknowledge that because He knows His lawless people so well, that would not obey, and so the angel is telling Daniel that Messiah will put an end to offerings, and the lawless ones will put an end to the Offering.. Physical people doing the physical thing fulfilling it spiritually. so we all seem to be at least agreeing this 'he' is a lawless entity. It is an implied 'he' looking at herbrew translation, and as we know, multiple people were involved in killing Jesus. I am also one that looks at the Beast as a system because the beast has multiple descriptions. There is the first beast, the second beast, one of the heads of the beast...and interlinear says a wild animal, but are we going to see an actual wild animal? interlinear refers to it (figuratively) a brutal ("bestial") nature. A brutal nature, which I would say describe a brutal system or way...
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Post by mike on Feb 27, 2018 9:33:10 GMT -6
just a brief doorbell chime from me...are we thinking the beast from the earth and the sea are corporeal type entities rather than individual (people)?
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Post by Natalie on Feb 27, 2018 10:42:57 GMT -6
I think that Daniel 7:23-27 is where the idea comes from that there will be one guy at the head of a world wide government.
It speaks of a kingdom that "shall devour the whole earth" (v23) and then one arises that subdues three of the 10 kings, he speaks against God, persecutes the saints, is in charge for 3.5 years, but then "the court shall be seated, and they shall take away his dominion to consume and destroy it forever."
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Post by grandpaskitzo on Feb 27, 2018 10:59:26 GMT -6
I think it would help here to define the word beast. It’s not just a big scary monster that we all attribute whatever characteristics we can. It’s a defined nature of man that is not just in opposition to God and His ways, but rather beast-like nature instead of that of man, or much less a saint, one that is foolish, wicked, prideful, stubborn, and stupid/ignorant of the knowledge of God.
So yes, I’d say it’s a not a singular person. It comes out of the sea (multitude of men), so it’s fitting it is a system and not a singular man, one from which men created by the beast nature that has now become the majority belief system.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Feb 27, 2018 14:10:15 GMT -6
It may be that at its climax it appears there is a "world system" that is allowed to predominate peoples, with that world, a god that all are following as their 'belief" system. I like what KJS said in that its like it has three entities; Beast system, it has its "god" as its head, a deceives with the false prophet. It may culminate with a singular person, (does it really matter if it is one singluar person?),
but as I am learning in Romans chapter one, God's Wrath has been building. Because we (Man) are a lawless bunch! Wrath, greek word orge', its meaning is like a teeming, a building up...it has been operating since the Fall of Man. Yes, the Tribulation is there, because we are told He pours it out...Daniel 9:27 is foreshadowing the lawlessness that will abound and what lawlessness does and God will pour out his wrath (bowl judgements since they are a vessel from which something is poured). Truly I see the dual meaning. Those who killed Jesus did not want to Hear God, did not want to say, "I am a sinner" save me from my wretched self. They wanted it their way, they wanted to see the king ushered in by their definition, not God's.... I implore everyone to look up the key words, antichrist, lawlessness, false teaching, false prophet... antichrist only occurs in one place and that is in 1John.. Lawlessness is found all over the Bible when people are walking in the flesh, walking apart from God, walking in Sin with no Faith in the Saviour...
Sorry, I stop. I already deleted a huge portion of a rant. little ol' me from Montana who got turned on to Revelation by a constellation...Love you all dearest brothers and sisters in Christ!
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Post by mike on Feb 27, 2018 15:15:38 GMT -6
perhaps it is because we equate the man of lawlessness as the incarnate version of the lawlessness we see all over scripture? we all know the reference but why not throw it in here  Thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:The KJV and YLT indicate this is a man, son, Lawless One (YLT), so it seems clear that there is an individual. There is clearly a system of the beast but this point to an individual. |
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Post by cwood85 on Feb 27, 2018 15:57:55 GMT -6
perhaps it is because we equate the man of lawlessness as the incarnate version of the lawlessness we see all over scripture? we all know the reference but why not throw it in here Thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:The KJV and YLT indicate this is a man, son, Lawless One (YLT), so it seems clear that there is an individual. There is clearly a system of the beast but this point to an individual. The Greek for the word "man" in that verse is not of an individual or single man, but both male and female as in mankind. Here is the strongs definition: 444 (anthrōpos) relates to both genders (male and female) as both are created in the image of God – each equally vested with individual personhood and destiny The word for man as an individual in Greek is anēr, which refers to a male individual of the human reace, and anthrōpos (the one used in the above verse) which is the racial, generic term, and which has the general idea of 'mankind' " Also this verses cannot be referring to a literal man made temple because I do believe Paul had referenced our bodies as being the true temple of God. Not a real man made temple. I will double check when I have time tonight if was Paul who said this in another book. If a third temple was built now, would it be the temple of God? Would God honor it? No, as it would be blasphemy when sacrifices where being done in it. Would we as Christians call it a temple of God? I hope not. |
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Post by fitz on Feb 27, 2018 17:14:40 GMT -6
perhaps it is because we equate the man of lawlessness as the incarnate version of the lawlessness we see all over scripture? we all know the reference but why not throw it in here Thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:The KJV and YLT indicate this is a man, son, Lawless One (YLT), so it seems clear that there is an individual. There is clearly a system of the beast but this point to an individual. The Greek for the word "man" in that verse is not of an individual or single man, but both male and female as in mankind. Here is the strongs definition: 444 (anthrōpos) relates to both genders (male and female) as both are created in the image of God – each equally vested with individual personhood and destiny The word for man as an individual in Greek is anēr, which refers to a male individual of the human reace, and anthrōpos (the one used in the above verse) which is the racial, generic term, and which has the general idea of 'mankind' " Also this verses cannot be referring to a literal man made temple because I do believe Paul had referenced our bodies as being the true temple of God. Not a real man made temple. I will double check when I have time tonight if was Paul who said this in another book. If a third temple was built now, would it be the temple of God? Would God honor it? No, as it would be blasphemy when sacrifices where being done in it. Would we as Christians call it a temple of God? I hope not. Not exactly cwood85 . The first (and best) meaning for "man" in this context is an individual human being. There is no other way to read it. You have to really jump through hoops to NOT see this passage as describing an individual man. Context is important. "...so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." This can not be "mankind". Strong's G444 I. a human being, whether male or female A. generically, to include all human individuals B. to distinguish man from beings of a different order i. of animals and plants ii. of from God and Christ iii. of the angels C. with the added notion of weakness, by which man is led into a mistake or prompted to sin D. with the adjunct notion of contempt or disdainful pity E. with reference to two fold nature of man, body and soul F. with reference to the two fold nature of man, the corrupt and the truly Christian man, conformed to the nature of God G. with reference to sex, a male II. indefinitely, someone, a man, one III. in the plural, people IV. joined with other words, merchantman |
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Post by witness1 on Feb 27, 2018 18:14:45 GMT -6
This picture and these quotes were taken from pages 114-116 of "The Christian Millenium" by Kevin J Conner regarding how the Bible talks about "the many antichrists", "the spirit of antichrist", and 'THE antichrist". "'The many antichrists' have known Christ and, beyond backsliding, have apostatized. 'They fall away' from true faith and turn against the true Christ. This is 'the falling away' (Grk. Lit. 'apostasia') spoken of by Paul in connection with the revelation of 'the Man of Sin' (2 Thess. 2:1-10). There ought not to be any difficulty in seeing that there are indeed 'many antichrists', and these will continue to increase in the last of the last days, right through to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ." "Not only does John speak of the 'many antichrists', he also speaks of 'the spirit of antichrist'... 1Jhn 4:1-3,6... Just as the Scripture speaks of the Holy Spirit as 'the Spirit of Christ', so here it speaks of 'the spirit of antichrist'. It is the contrast between 'the spirit of truth' and 'the spirit of error' (iJhn 4:6 with Rom 8:9). It reveals that there are primarily two spirits at work in the earth. One is the 'Spirit of Christ' and the other is the 'Spirit of Antichrist'. People either respond to the Holy Spirit, as the Spirit of Truth and the Spirit of Christ, or they respond to Satan, as the Spirit of Error and the Spirit of Antichrist. Both head up under 'the Mystery of Godliness' or 'the Mystery of Lawlessness' (1Tim 3:16 with 2 Thess 2:1-4)" "Not only does John write of the 'many antichrists', and 'the spirit of antichrist', he also speaks of "THE Antichrist' (1Jhn 2:18). The believers had heard that antichrist would come, even though there were the many antichrists around. They went out from the Church, all of which confirms that antichrist comes from the Church, and then is manifest in the world. Most translations of 1Jhn 2:18 place the article 'the' before 'antichrist'. The context of the verse points to an individual person as the coming antichrist, as well as the many other antichrists. There would be 'the one' and there would be 'the many'."    |
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Post by witness1 on Feb 27, 2018 18:20:10 GMT -6
It is interesting that this author believes The Antichrist will come from the church, like "the many antichrists" have gone out from the church. I wonder if the pope, the giver of the medallions, could actually be the antichrist and not the false prophet? It makes sense to me that people would fall for a man of religion who is already respected as a spiritual leader. That's something I haven't thought of before, but I suppose it's worth paying attention to. It is certainly interesting that he is the one giving the medallions... wouldn't the head do that? EDIT: This was on my FB feed from a girl who frequently mocks Christianity. So many half truths here... The pope says it’s better to be an atheist than a bad Christian. edition.cnn.com/2017/02/23/world/pope-atheists-again/index.html?no-st=1519708076 |
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Post by witness1 on Feb 27, 2018 21:29:25 GMT -6
I am curious about everyone's thoughts about the idea that THE antichrist will come from the church like "the many antichrists" do.
EDIT: I was just thinking about how the Catholic church believes that the pope has a direct line to God and is the spokesman of God... it wouldn't be a far jump to say God has indwelled him as the savior of the world.
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