|
|
Post by witness1 on Feb 22, 2018 21:19:13 GMT -6
Would you elaborate on this davewatchman? I agree with you that we are in the days of the abomination of desolation but perhaps for different reasons, and I’m wondering what you see that led you to that conclusion. I like the analogy of John at the River Jordan. That’s how I feel too and you’ve given a good picture/story for the feeling that I didn’t know how to put into words. |
|
|
|
Post by davewatchman on Feb 24, 2018 16:00:14 GMT -6
Would you elaborate on this davewatchman ? I agree with you that we are in the days of the abomination of desolation but perhaps for different reasons, and I’m wondering what you see that led you to that conclusion. I like the analogy of John at the River Jordan. That’s how I feel too and you’ve given a good picture/story for the feeling that I didn’t know how to put into words. Thank you witness1 for the kind words. I think that you're smart too. I read a couple of your notes on the Daniel 9 thread. But it's a complex and elaborate subject with many disciplines involved. So i tend to hesitate on an explanation of the empirical as i fear it will create a discombobulation with the majority of the end time Bible students here. The funny thing is that i had a similar thing on another forum last summer when i said: "I think that it's started already or is a few months away, but just like in the days of John the Baptist, not everything is like the Pharisees prophecy teachers told us it would be. The falling away is finalized, the AofD is set up and is standing in the holy place and the Man of Sin has taken his seat in the Temple of our God and is thereby claiming to be Him. He just has to cause the fire to fall from heaven in the presence of men to begin the year of recompense. And then a nurse from Texas asked almost the same question as you did: "Dave would you please elaborate on this comment. I don't think we know the half of what's going on, not everything is like it seems. It's like the tribulation of a Matrix style movie where we have to eat the little book to have the eyes to see it. It tastes sweet in the mouth but bitter in the gut. Our end times, our last days are from Revelation 12 until the middle of chapter 14.5. From Jesus' days on earth, through the Foxe Book days of Europe where the dragon was chasing the woman, the USA becoming the second wing of the great eagle and a holy place, a place prepared by God, our great tribulation now just pending and then until the 144,000 are seen standing around the throne. We are already through chapter 12 and are about half the way through Revelation 13 and the "theologians" have little idea of what's going on. (Let The Reader Understand), should have been a heads up that the understanding of this would be unique. The dragon was cast out on resurrection Sunday, cast into the earth, into the abyss, Jesus said it while He still walked the earth: "now shall the prince of this world be cast out", and here we are sitting here today waiting for him to rise up out of the earth and out of the abyss. He once was visible, now is not visible and will soon become visible again and go to his destruction. But elaboration can be elaborate and the composite beast is watching. No time to do a video or write a book. And too much of the empirical is spooky, it's not for everyone. It's for the reader, not the teller to understand. But it had to be something that could be held on to, something that we could reach out and take hold of in our hand. Just not too much at one time. Jesus said to fear not little flock and be anxious for nothing. Writing a fear filled note full of anxiety would seem to me to be counter to His Word. The main thing for me and the reason for my confidence here is the 1290 days. From the AofD until the "darkened sun is exactly "a thousand two hundred and ninety days. I seriously doubt that this could be a coincidence. But just the "darkened" sun alone is more than enough to measure days to various other of the witnesses. "It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Some think that the "daily" is taken away, and then 1290 days latter the AofD is set up. Thats how it seemed to read to me in 2013 when i got started on this. That's the year i found the "darkened" sun. Then in 2015 i found what i think to be the AofD. Then i found out that exactly 1290 days separated the two events. I had to reverse engineer the whole schematic backwards to Revelation 12. So: Seems simply to be another answer offered by the Man clothed in linen to the original question from verse 6 asked by "someone" standing by the river: If you can picture "the end of these wonders" being the end of the "time of the end" where many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase, this should be Daniel's equivalent to Matthew's: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be "darkened". So instead of a: D/S<---1290--->AofD We would have a: D/S AofD<---1290--->Sun/Moon (1372 on the graph = the "darkened" sun) <----1260----> <-----1290-----> 0.976744186046512 <------1335------> 0.966292134831461 <-------1372-------> 0.973032069970845  Peaceful rest of the Sabbath. |
|
blur
New Member
Posts: 49 
|
Post by blur on Feb 28, 2018 13:47:24 GMT -6
Clouds means ‘air’ means the Greek word ‘pneuma’ which means spirit. Same idea as the Holy Spirit being a’wind’ or breathe of life. People are gathered physically if alive, gathered in heaven if dead. So IF there is a symbolic fulfillment of this, why demand a literal fulfillment of scripture or God? Hello Blur, Welcome to the forum. ;-)
There are some very basic rules of Biblical Interpretation that are used and accepted by Bible scholars and theologians around the world and across the denominational spectrum.
- One of the most basic and most important is "If the text seems to make literal sense, seek no other sense, or it will be nonsense." - Then, the other basic but vital principle is Context. We always have to look at the Historical Context, Grammatical Context and Cultural context, as well as Literary context - what genre.?? The passage mike cites, (which is by the way - the most explicitly clear passage in the Bible for the physical and instant "harpazo" rapture - I Thes. 4:17) is not allegory or prophetic literature, nor is it poetry. Also, the very word, Harpazo, literally means to snatch up, to catch up quickly by force, and the Latin word is rapturo - the very root of where we get the word "rapture". **** Another basic and very important principle of Hermeneutics 101 is "What Else? / What Other passages talk about this - cross referencing. Looking at the other passages that use the same word or address the same issue. The other occurrence of the word "Harpazo" is in Acts - the story of Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch. Phillip preached to him, baptized him and then was snatched up instantly - raptured.
With this said, I do agree with you that the passage of Matthew you cited - Olivette Discourse - is very often taken out of context to mean the rapture, but in fact, when we look at the plain reading of the text, the part about no one knows the day or the hour is not referring to the rapture, but the second coming. - Seen by most to be at the end of the tribulation - but there is a wide spectrum of beliefs and countless understandings of timelines of events. ;-)
Blessings, Disciple4life. maranatha.
I am fine with saying a 'physical gathering'. Revelation describes both of these events. What rule have I broken? None, but I am a thought criminal because I won't conform to what the 'experts' say. The 'harpazo'... where is that mentioned by Jesus? Matt 12 biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/12-29.htmthat word 'plunder' is the 'harpazo'. People are gathered after the fall of Babylon (when the strong man is bound) (and then released to attack Christians, like in Rev 12). Refers back to Revelation 6th Seal & Trumpets 1-4. In other words, the sealing of the 144,000 & the great multitude that are coming out of the 'great tribulation' that has ended due to it being cut short before the sign of the son of man. |
|
blur
New Member
Posts: 49
|
Post by blur on Feb 28, 2018 13:52:30 GMT -6
Rev 12 describes Satan attacking the woman, gets furious when she escapes, and then goes to attack Christians. Where is there a whisked away rapture here? The 2 attacks have a gap of 5 months: first comes the great tribulation at the winter solstice and corresponds to the 6th seal & 1-4 trumpets and start of the 5th trumpet 5 months. Then the 6th trumpet war results in the outer court being trampled for 1260 days. If you recall from rev chapter 10 it says that John has to prophecize again, meaning to a separate group of people, ie the Christians mentioned in rev 12 &13. Is your assumption that the woman in Rev 12 is the church? Wouldnt it make more sense for the [corporate] son in Rev 12:5 to be the church, which is 'caught up' (harpazo)... The christians attacked would, in the scenario I am describing, be the believers who were saved after the rapture (harpazo) - during the Tribulation. The woman like I said before is not the church. Otherwise, Rev 12 wouldn't make any sense: Satan goes to war with the woman, then goes to war with Christians - who have been physically gathered. |
|
blur
New Member
Posts: 49
|
Post by blur on Feb 28, 2018 14:03:56 GMT -6
Hi Blur, thank you for your analysis. I am wondering if we can shave some time off of it. You know, like, can we subtract 3.5 years to bring us to 2018. Just hoping. Lets say July 4 2021 is the mid point of the 7 years. Then the beginning would be before July 4 2018. Is there any way that you can make that work.  Unfortunately, your analysis fits into my personal analysis using the Walls of Jericho as a type. Additionally, there is Ezra's eagle in the Apocrypha that points to this period. At any rate, the chapter 12 sign was amazing and so is your work. Ezra's eagle shows that the beginning will not go beyond six years and eleven months from now; with a caveat being that that beginning may be a pre-tribulation event. It is all exhausting to think about. The type of Jericho shows 2024 and I subtracted seven years from that to get us a little closer but it hasn't helped. Personally, I hope things will begin within one year of the Chapter 12 sign but if not then your dates look promising. To try to understand events that are occurring before the sign of the son of man, I just realized something the other day: Daniel 9's '70 weeks' actually reads the exact same as '77' in Hebrew. Meaning, we can read it like this: 2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.3 Then I turned my face to the Lord God, seeking him by prayer and pleas for mercy with fasting and sackcloth and ashes. 4 I prayed to the Lord my God and made confession, saying, “O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, 5 we have sinned and done wrong and acted wickedly and rebelled, turning aside from your commandments and rules. 6 We have not listened to your servants the prophets, who spoke in your name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land. 7 To you, O Lord, belongs righteousness, but to us open shame, as at this day, to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to all Israel, those who are near and those who are far away, in all the lands to which you have driven them, because of the treachery that they have committed against you. 8 To us, O Lord, belongs open shame, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against you. 9 To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, for we have rebelled against him 10 and have not obeyed the voice of the Lord our God by walking in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets. 11 All Israel has transgressed your law and turned aside, refusing to obey your voice. And the curse and oath that are written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out upon us, because we have sinned against him.
[...] 24 77 is decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. 25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one 'seven', and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.” If you read it like that, what is that saying? the '70th week', that last 'seven' mentioned in verse 27 would be the last 7 years of 77 years!
Meaning from the anniversary of Israel, 5 Iyyar, 5778 (our April 20, 2018) or 70 solar years after May 14, 1948 (verse 2 above) (May 14, 2018) would start the last 7 years of the 77 years to finish the transgression!
|
|
|
|
Post by disciple4life on Feb 28, 2018 16:24:32 GMT -6
Hello Blur, Welcome to the forum. ;-)
There are some very basic rules of Biblical Interpretation that are used and accepted by Bible scholars and theologians around the world and across the denominational spectrum.
- One of the most basic and most important is "If the text seems to make literal sense, seek no other sense, or it will be nonsense." - Then, the other basic but vital principle is Context. We always have to look at the Historical Context, Grammatical Context and Cultural context, as well as Literary context - what genre.?? The passage mike cites, (which is by the way - the most explicitly clear passage in the Bible for the physical and instant "harpazo" rapture - I Thes. 4:17) is not allegory or prophetic literature, nor is it poetry. Also, the very word, Harpazo, literally means to snatch up, to catch up quickly by force, and the Latin word is rapturo - the very root of where we get the word "rapture". **** Another basic and very important principle of Hermeneutics 101 is "What Else? / What Other passages talk about this - cross referencing. Looking at the other passages that use the same word or address the same issue. The other occurrence of the word "Harpazo" is in Acts - the story of Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch. Phillip preached to him, baptized him and then was snatched up instantly - raptured.
With this said, I do agree with you that the passage of Matthew you cited - Olivette Discourse - is very often taken out of context to mean the rapture, but in fact, when we look at the plain reading of the text, the part about no one knows the day or the hour is not referring to the rapture, but the second coming. - Seen by most to be at the end of the tribulation - but there is a wide spectrum of beliefs and countless understandings of timelines of events. ;-)
Blessings, Disciple4life. maranatha.
I am fine with saying a 'physical gathering'. Revelation describes both of these events. What rule have I broken? None, but I am a thought criminal because I won't conform to what the 'experts' say. The 'harpazo'... where is that mentioned by Jesus? Matt 12 biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/12-29.htmthat word 'plunder' is the 'harpazo'. People are gathered after the fall of Babylon (when the strong man is bound) (and then released to attack Christians, like in Rev 12). Refers back to Revelation 6th Seal & Trumpets 1-4. In other words, the sealing of the 144,000 & the great multitude that are coming out of the 'great tribulation' that has ended due to it being cut short before the sign of the son of man. Hello blur,
I'm sorry you thought I implied anyone was a thought criminal. I don't understand your question at all - "Harpazo - where is that mentioned by Jesus.?"
Paul uses it and it's also in Revelation and also in Acts. Jesus is God and the Bible is God's word -- Sounds like you mean you only accept the red letters attributed to Jesus?
I'm simply trying to listen and understand what you mean, my brother. I'm also aware that we lose so much with online/ written forums, like voice and inflection and eye contact and body language. Do you mean that you don't believe in the rapture ? Or is it more accurate to say that you hold a Post-Tribulation rapture view. ? Do you think that there is some Trigger event/ some catalyst that lights the fuse for the tribulation? and if so - what do you think that will be - if not the rapture. ? I saw you included some amazing graphics / screen shots from Stellarium or Skyfall something similar. ;-) Do you think that conjunction points to the return of Christ ?? [Second coming] ?
Blessings, Disciple4life.
|
|
|
|
Post by boraddict on Mar 1, 2018 1:27:50 GMT -6
I have been thinking about the Savior's ministry and using the visit at the well as a dividing marker. It was here that he spent two days which represents the two thousand years to the gentiles. You know, one day is as a thousand years. The Samaritans were not truly of Israel but gentiles.
So what could be the time marker prior to the woman at the well that would represent the period from Daniel to the time of the Savior.
It was 52 days from when Lord Jesus ended his fasting and was seen by John followed by the two days that represents two thousand years. Since he was cut off in the middle of week 63 for a total of 62 X 7 + 3 days (437), and 52 + 2 days were used prior to and including the woman at the well, then there should be 437 - 54 days (383) remaining that represents the time after the two thousand years have expired; roughly one year. If May 15 2018 is that two thousand year ending date, then we should see something prior to May 15 2019.
In some way, the 70 years from Lord Jesus' birth to the destruction of the temple by the Romans is linked to the 70 years from May 15 1948 to May 15 2018. In the first case the temple was destroyed and in the second case the temple is expected to be rebuilt. In a chiasmus the birth of the Savior corresponds directly to the rebuilding of the temple. Or better stated, the birth of the Savior corresponds directly to the return of the Savior. Thus, the two thousand years would be the period of Christ's birth to Christ's return with the first 70 years after Christ's birth and the last 70 years before Christ's return. Since Christ was actually born in the year 3 BC, then we should add 3 years to 2018 giving us 2021 as the year the Savior returns.
It is all beyond my grasp.
Perhaps we should subtract 5 months as referenced in Revelation Chapter 9 and that would bring us to Jan. 2019 as the date of the beast's attack. If that is true, then we should have some pre-tribulation events sometime this year.
Sooner of later someone will figure this thing out; perhaps.
|
|
|
|
Post by venge on Apr 7, 2018 14:02:35 GMT -6
no txt
|
|
blur
New Member
Posts: 49
|
Post by blur on Apr 8, 2018 12:07:31 GMT -6
I seriously want to comment on this but I am gonna hold back. For now.... What is there to hold back on? |
|
|
|
Post by venge on Apr 8, 2018 12:34:28 GMT -6
I seriously want to comment on this but I am gonna hold back. For now.... What is there to hold back on? It would be a very long write up I would need to write on my computer and then transmit it here. Too much to say in regards to the sign of the son of man. |
|
blur
New Member
Posts: 49
|
Post by blur on Apr 8, 2018 14:01:08 GMT -6
Ok, no problem.
|
|
|
|
Post by disciple4life on Apr 9, 2018 0:40:08 GMT -6
What is there to hold back on? It would be a very long write up I would need to write on my computer and then transmit it here. Too much to say in regards to the sign of the son of man. Hello venge,
So great to have you on the forum. I would just encourage you in this - ;-) No one has all the pieces. Only a small few insisted they did (in other words, the watchmen who are still here and part of this community all acknowledge that we don't. )
We're all building the plane as we fly it. No one agrees on everypoint with someone else and that's OK. We ask questions, we try to clarify and even probe to find the weaknesses/ holes in various theories.
Though we have different opinions and perspectives and may disagree on pyramid angles or rapture scenarios, the overwhelming majority of watchmen - (people on this forum) and respected end-times teachers believe we are seeing labor pains.
What I mean is that things today are categorically different than 50 years ago, before Jews had reclaimed Jerusalem, and even 4 years ago. Signs in the heavens and earth are converging and we are seeing prophecy fulfilled before our eyes.
I encourage you to create a thread. ;-) It doesn't even have to have all the parts. I firmly believe that Jesus has kept some things hidden - until the "moadim" appointed time - [Hebrew word used for the feasts]. More and more things are revealed to watchmen as the time gets closer. Astronomy, heavenly signs, Gog of Magog, 3rd temple, blood moons, Significance of Hebrew/ Prophetic calendar, situation of Damascus, etc, etc. Then, there will be the 'water breaking' and for those of us who are watching, waiting - like the wise virgins, - (like Paul said) 'That day will not surprise you - like a thief.'
Grace and peace,
Disciple4life.
|
|
|
|
Post by venge on Apr 9, 2018 10:27:35 GMT -6
Since coming here and seeing specific threads built, it has caused me to rethink how I do my notes at home. My work is together piece by piece but I may separate it into files pertaining to things like the threads here. I will have to take time to split my work into:
Signs of the son of man
Antichrist defined
Antichrist religion
Earth vs Sea: the difference between the AC and beast
Rapture: Pre Trib, 7th Trumpet or 6th seal
When does Gods wrath begin
The 4th empire ....this one I have a lot of info on and I go into what I think the last kingdom is.
I also created a HUGE chronological chart that spans from Adam to today with jubilee years, Passover’s, sabbath years, important events etc....it’s very large
|
|
|
|
Post by mike on Apr 9, 2018 10:46:13 GMT -6
feel free to start new threads with the subject matter venge |
|
|
|
Post by witness1 on Apr 9, 2018 13:04:20 GMT -6
Since coming here and seeing specific threads built, it has caused me to rethink how I do my notes at home. My work is together piece by piece but I may separate it into files pertaining to things like the threads here. I will have to take time to split my work into: Signs of the son of man Antichrist defined Antichrist religion Earth vs Sea: the difference between the AC and beast Rapture: Pre Trib, 7th Trumpet or 6th seal When does Gods wrath begin The 4th empire ....this one I have a lot of info on and I go into what I think the last kingdom is. I also created a HUGE chronological chart that spans from Adam to today with jubilee years, Passover’s, sabbath years, important events etc....it’s very large I specifically am interested in your work on the jubilees and your timeline of events from Adam. I think Daniel 9 holds the key to a lot of our misunderstanding, and I have begun to look at the various decrees pertaining to Jerusalem and when the sabbath/jubilee years were. Isaac Newton believed that the 70 weeks needed to coincide with the shmita cycle, and right now my hypothesis is that the 69 weeks began with the decree found in Ezra in 457BC and that Messiah was anointed in 27AD (483 years later) in time to proclaim the jubilee that year or in 28 AD. But figuring out the jubilee years has been daunting so far, and there are a lot of views out there. Looking to see if you can confirm that 457 BC and 27/28 AD were sabbath and possibly jubilee years. If this 457 BC to 27 AD timeline is valid, that means it could be true that Jesus fulfilled the first half of the 70th week from 27-30 AD when He was cut off. |
|
