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Post by gregt on May 1, 2017 7:44:46 GMT -6
Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
This sounds like a parallel to what Herod did. Any ideas on how this plays out?
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Post by BrazenLaver on May 1, 2017 12:53:07 GMT -6
Symbolic language of Revelation is often understood figuratively. In this vision we are told literally that the Red Dragon is the "Old Serpent." Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. King Herod obviously tried to kill the infant Christ in the gospels. Matthew 2:16-18 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men. Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying, In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not. So obviously we have a similar pattern found in the gospel of our Saviors birth. However, Satan's pattern seems not far from his typical script, he wants to kill, steal and destroy. The key to Revelation 12 is in the timing of the birth of the "male child." We can infer that the male child is related to the messiah and/or his collective body, as some suggest "The Church." Romans 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. This "male child" is caught up into heaven and then the next key is the timing of War of the Dragon and Michael... Revelation 12:6-9 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. The battle appears simultaneously with a prophecy time frame of 1260 days. This time period is equivalent to 3 1/2 years. This time frame was mentioned in Daniel and several passages in Revelation. These passages refer to the last half of Daniels 70th week. Therefore this passage of War with the Dragon is a prophetic event to John and us, rather than a past event.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2017 13:40:49 GMT -6
Perhaps this is kind of what the war in heaven is all about... I've heard others say the Church is going up and the devil is coming down. He does not want that to happen. He wants to devour the Church as soon as it's born, so that it can't make it to heaven. How that works or what it looks like I don't know, but I have a hunch we're soon going to find out. Be ready.
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Post by watchmanjim on May 1, 2017 13:47:24 GMT -6
Gregt, Brazenlaver is right that Satan does use repeating patterns in his war on God and His people. It is also true that Bible prophecy often has a very repetitive pattern to it. When Herod sought to kill Jesus, and only managed to kill all the other boy babies in town, this was not the first time this kind of thing had happened. When the Israelites were slaves in Egypt, Pharaoh ordered all the children under a certain age to be killed, and Moses was the only one of his age group to escape that slaughter (as far as we know). Moses therefore was a type of Christ. So we see that Satan trying to kill babies is nothing new, it is part of his pattern. (And often he is successful. Just ask any abortion activist how many abortions have happened to date). So this experienced baby-killer, Satan, is here symbolically lying in wait to kill the symbolic baby here-- which of course, translates into a real-world situation.
It brings about a new question to me: If the baby represents the church getting raptured, then how is Satan specifically lying in wait to devour the church as soon as it is born (raptured)? Does he have a special offensive he hopes to open up against the church, either immediately before, immediately after, or during the instant of the Rapture?
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Post by brad on May 1, 2017 20:23:32 GMT -6
great question... Is the dragon devouring because he wants to kill? Or actually become ... Anti means I place of....in place of Christ?... One more little problem... If the labor pains come after the birth...then why is she crying out in pain to give birth? 2 births? One the church and one the Antichrist? Any thoughts?
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Post by watchmanjim on May 1, 2017 20:29:44 GMT -6
Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh interesting.....................................
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Post by watchmanjim on May 1, 2017 20:31:36 GMT -6
Well one thing I've noticed is that the woman is not referred to in Revelation as a virgin. When Christ was born, His mother was a virgin. Even though the constellation is known as "the virgin," Revelation does not call it that. I've assumed recently, this is because she was a virgin when she gave birth to Christ, but was no longer a virgin when giving birth to the church. (?)
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Post by brad on May 1, 2017 20:32:23 GMT -6
One crazy idea... What if as we go up... The fallen angels take our earthly bodies... There would be no need to explain anything! This is not on my best 3 theories list.... Just thought I'd throw it out there..
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Post by watchmanjim on May 1, 2017 20:33:57 GMT -6
One crazy idea... What if as we go up... The fallen angels take our earthly bodies... There would be no need to explain anything! This is not on my best 3 theories list.... Just thought I'd throw it out there.. Well, that's a thought, but I don't think it will "fly." The reason I don't think so is because we are told our bodies will be "changed" not replaced.
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Post by brad on May 1, 2017 20:35:50 GMT -6
Watchman... Excellent point... Any thoughts on the dragon?
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Post by watchmanjim on May 1, 2017 22:00:28 GMT -6
Well it is clear that the dragon (Satan) truly wishes to destroy God, the Son of God, the people of God (both Israel and the Church) and all the creation of God, any way he can. Is he actively scheming some way he hopes to disrupt, stop, reverse, eliminate, spoil, prevent, or otherwise interfere with the Rapture itself? MAYBE. This would be an interesting development. Obviously to us, since God firmly stated that the rapture will occur, we need not be concerned about it-- Greater is He that is in us, than he that is in the world. But it would be an interesting twist.
Possibly the reference to the dragon trying to devour the baby could refer to his attempts down through the ages to do so, but you know, if this baby is truly the church, and the rapture is truly the birth or time when the dragon is trying to get at this church, since he hasn't been able to do so before--this could have some kind of very interesting implications.
But again, I think I'm left with more questions than answers.
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Post by whatif on May 1, 2017 22:25:37 GMT -6
I'm wondering if perhaps the Dragon knows that the Church will become a huge army after the rapture, and therefore he makes an attempt to destroy us as we are being snatched up. It seems to me that the reference to the "armies of heaven" in Revelation 19:11-16 would be the Church:
I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: king of kings and lord of lords.
In fact, perhaps the reason the Church will be snatched up to God's throne--a sudden yank to safety, rather than a leisurely, peaceful tour of the universe guided by our Lord en route to heaven--is because the Dragon will attempt to thwart the Lord's plan by attacking the Church at the time of the resurrection. Maybe, too, if indeed the Dragon does make an attack on the Church during the rapture, perhaps that is why war suddenly breaks out in heaven and Satan is thrown down to earth. Revelation 12:7-8 says, "Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him."
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Post by watchmanjim on May 1, 2017 22:48:34 GMT -6
I had never gathered that from the Rev 12 sign until today--but now it seems rather likely!
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Post by BrazenLaver on May 2, 2017 8:55:25 GMT -6
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. Daniel 10:20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come. Numbers 22:31 Then the Lord opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face. 2 Kings 6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, Lord, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the Lord opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha. We have many passages that tell us of the struggle between Angels for the souls of men. This conflict is ever present in our lives around us. It will be so intensified during or "Harpazo" that the Heavens will shake, the mountains will quake and stars of heaven will fall. Pharaoh, Herod and the wicked kings of Tyre, Babylon and Assyria used weapons and soldiers of war to kill, steal and destroy. Since the dawn of the nuclear age and Roe v. Wade. The "old serpent" has tried to bruise the heel of the body of Christ. The "old serpent" method is flood of war. Rev.12:15-16 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth Jeremiah 46:8 Egypt riseth up like a flood, and his waters are moved like the rivers; and he saith, I will go up, and will cover the earth; I will destroy the city and the inhabitants thereof. Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. Ezekiel 38:9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee. However, God can use the earth itself to smash his armies. Just ask Pharaoh about the Red Sea my friends.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2017 11:29:41 GMT -6
It is one of the reasons that I am adamant about the rapture. God is going to 'snatch' us out. Satan will have waited a long time and he will be furious when we are snatched up before he can devour/destroy 'the church'. In his fury, he will go after Israel.
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