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Post by witness1 on Feb 6, 2018 23:15:58 GMT -6
There has been some excellent information regarding the day of Christ vs the day of the Lord. We believe the day of Christ is the rapture, but what is the day of the Lord? Is it day 1 of the tribulation? Or is the entire tribulation “the day of the Lord”? The midpoint? Would appreciate your thoughts.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2018 0:35:08 GMT -6
Watchman John has some interesting thoughts on this:
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Post by mike on Feb 7, 2018 7:16:18 GMT -6
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Post by witness1 on Feb 7, 2018 7:34:15 GMT -6
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Post by mike on Feb 7, 2018 7:46:29 GMT -6
Here is the bulk of the content from the PDF...I was thinking back on my post and when I re-read it I thought it couldve sounded dismissive of the question you posed, so I want to make sure it doesnt come across that way. By all means continue the dialogue Witness1  ______________________________________ The “Day of the Lord” and the “Day of Christ” are used to describe different events and therefore are not identical terms. The Day of the Lord refers to God’s judgment and isn’t tied to one specific event. The Day of Christ, on the other hand, is a specific day when Jesus will reward His children at the Rapture. The bodies of those who have died in Christ will be resurrected from the dead and those believers who are alive when He returns will be transformed into glorious bodies (1 Thess. 4:13-17). According to Dr. C.I. Scofield: “The day of Christ” relates wholly to the reward and blessing of the saints at His coming, as “day of the Lord” is connected with judgment. Day of Christ (Resurrection and Rewarding His Church)
Phil. 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ JesusPhil. 1:10 So that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ. Phil. 2:16 Holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain. 1 Cor. 1:8 Who shall also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. Day of the Lord (Judgment and Destruction)The “Day of the Lord” refers to a time of judgment and actually covers several events. It can refer to:
1) the Lord’s judgment of nations in the Old Testament 2) the judgments during the Tribulation Period 3) the judgment at the Second Coming 4) the judgment when God destroys the heavens and the earth. The term “that day,” “the great day” and “the day” occurs more than 75 times in the Old Testament and the idea of judgment is paramount in all of them. Zeph. 1:14-15 Near is the great day of the Lord, near and coming quickly…a day of wrath is that day, a day of trouble and distress, a day of destruction and desolation, a day of darkness and gloom. Amos 5:18, 20 Alas, you who are longing for the day of the Lord, for what purpose will the day of the Lord be to you? It will be darkness and not light…even gloom with no brightness in it. Isa. 13:6 Wail, for the day of the Lord is near! It will come as destruction from the Almighty. Ezekiel 30:3 For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near. It will be a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations. 2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. |
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Post by witness1 on Feb 7, 2018 7:58:56 GMT -6
Watchman John has some interesting thoughts on this: Am I understanding correctly that he is saying the 1000 year reign is the day of the Lord? That seems to not match with the other verses that sound like the day of the Lord is a day of judgment. |
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Post by witness1 on Feb 7, 2018 12:02:56 GMT -6
Thank you mike . I didn't think you were being dismissive at all. |
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Post by witness1 on Feb 7, 2018 22:41:49 GMT -6
The reason I am asking is because, depending on when the “Day of the Lord” is, 2 Thessalonians sounds like the man of lawlessness will be revealed before the day of our “being gathered together to the Lord Jesus Christ”:
1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,
2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
This passage seems to me to be saying that the Thessalonians were wondering whether the tribulation had already begun and whether they had missed the rapture. And Paul says, “No no. That day (the rapture) won’t come until the man of lawlessness is revealed by taking his seat in the temple of God (whatever that means...)” Thoughts?
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Post by disciple4life on Mar 5, 2018 2:23:06 GMT -6
The reason I am asking is because, depending on when the “Day of the Lord” is, 2 Thessalonians sounds like the man of lawlessness will be revealed before the day of our “being gathered together to the Lord Jesus Christ”: 1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 This passage seems to me to be saying that the Thessalonians were wondering whether the tribulation had already begun and whether they had missed the rapture. And Paul says, “No no. That day (the rapture) won’t come until the man of lawlessness is revealed by taking his seat in the temple of God (whatever that means...)” Thoughts? Hello fellowwatchmen and women. ;-) It's just my take- so my .02 two cents. That together with $1.98 will get you a cheap cup of coffee. heheh. I think it's safe to say that most of us here - this Forum - would agree that the two terms as well as the goal/ end result and description of these events - Day of Christ, vs Day of the Lord, are very very different.
Just for a moment, if we agreed that the Day of the Lord is referring to the second coming - Judgement/wrath/ destruction, then from the passage above it seems we have several significant clues 1. The first clue is in verse 1 - he seems to be describing /listing both events "coming of the Lord Jesus Christ" - as in the second coming, AND "our being gathered together to him - Harpazo. He's reassuring the Christians at Thessalonica that neither of these events have happened. 2*** Next, look closely at the sequence of events - In verse one, it's explicitly clear he's talking about harpazo, and possibly also the second coming. But in the end of verse 2, NOTICE he used "The Day of the Lord" phrase [Judgement, wrath/ destruction] and immediately, he states "that day will not come unless/ until the man of lawlessness is revealed." Which day?? - that day- the Day of the Lord. - Second coming. The great rebellion/ apostasy/ falling away happens, the man of lawlessness is revealed - [AC or False Prophet] - the son of destruction - then, the second coming happens - Wrath/ Judgement/ and Destruction are poured out - but we, the Christians are gone, long before any of this happens. This totally fits with the most common understanding of Revelation/Daniel. Second coming at the end of the Tribulation.
**I think we have to at least consider - [it has been discussed already on multiple other threads] that the AC / or the False Prophet may already be alive and is likely on the world stage. It's much more plausible that the person who 'emerges' to bring peace will already be a known and recognizable world leader. It makes sense that this person would already have considerable experience as a leader, who can persuade people, or someone with great power / wealth/ charismatic celebrity.
I think it also makes sense that the AC will very quickly emerge with the promise of Peace in the world-wide panic, chaos and hysteria which cripples the whole world in the aftermath of the rapture as world leaders are gone, along with tens of thousands of military leaders, and senators of the worlds largest Christian nations, USA and South Korea. It also seems that world leaders have to quickly act against Israel, seeing that USA is incapable of coming to Israel's aid. For this reason, I think the UN will certainly play a role. I also think this is Obama's goal - Be the UN leader. ;-(
I continue to watch, continue to listen and read and learn from you all, I continue to study scripture, and I hope it encourages you - I think much of the stuff we like to discuss - "Who is the HE of Daniel" ? and the exact sequence of Revelation - etc, etc. is sealed for now, and that we are experiencing labor pains. Most every person remotely interested in end -times would agree that there are more signs in heavens and on the earth, and that they are increasing in frequency and intensity - just like labor pains - But there will be a "water breaking" event/ moment, who for those watching, it will be a very clear signal.
**One thought that just came - is that as a husband/ father, other children - those who are close by know when the water breaks. ;-) At that point, we stop debating how close the contractions are -- all those things were important 5 minutes ago, but now, no one is timing the contractions, or how far apart they are - we just get in the car. As everyone who has had a baby knows - our bags have been packed.  We grab the bag and go to the hospital.
Maranatha.
Disciple4life
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Post by fitz on Mar 5, 2018 4:27:22 GMT -6
Personally, I think verse one is simply all about the rapture. 2 Thessalonians 2 was written to reassure this church as some had been telling them that the Day of the Lord (DOTL) had already begun. So they thought that that they had missed the rapture. Paul says to them...no it hasn't started yet because we are still here and there is no AC figure we can see. He is reminding them of what he taught them in 1 Thessalonians 5:1 - 11 which makes it clear that we escape before the wrath falls. 2 Thess. 2 makes it clear wrath doesn't fall until AC is revealed.
Combining 1 Thess. 5 with 2 Thess. 2 we see the order of events...
Rapture >>> AC Revealed >>> DOTL starts
So 2 Thessalonians 2:1 - 4...
1. He is coming, to gather us to himself
2. Don't be worried, don't think the DOTL has started.
3. Don't let anyone deceive you, the AC must be revealed before the DOTL starts.
4. This AC is a nasty fellow that will proclaim himself to be God.
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Post by witness1 on Mar 5, 2018 10:19:39 GMT -6
The reason I am asking is because, depending on when the “Day of the Lord” is, 2 Thessalonians sounds like the man of lawlessness will be revealed before the day of our “being gathered together to the Lord Jesus Christ”: 1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 This passage seems to me to be saying that the Thessalonians were wondering whether the tribulation had already begun and whether they had missed the rapture. And Paul says, “No no. That day (the rapture) won’t come until the man of lawlessness is revealed by taking his seat in the temple of God (whatever that means...)” Thoughts? Hello fellowwatchmen and women. ;-) It's just my take- so my .02 two cents. That together with $1.98 will get you a cheap cup of coffee. heheh. I think it's safe to say that most of us here - this Forum - would agree that the two terms as well as the goal/ end result and description of these events - Day of Christ, vs Day of the Lord, are very very different.
Just for a moment, if we agreed that the Day of the Lord is referring to the second coming - Judgement/wrath/ destruction, then from the passage above it seems we have several significant clues 1. The first clue is in verse 1 - he seems to be describing /listing both events "coming of the Lord Jesus Christ" - as in the second coming, AND "our being gathered together to him - Harpazo. He's reassuring the Christians at Thessalonica that neither of these events have happened. 2*** Next, look closely at the sequence of events - In verse one, it's explicitly clear he's talking about harpazo, and possibly also the second coming. But in the end of verse 2, NOTICE he used "The Day of the Lord" phrase [Judgement, wrath/ destruction] and immediately, he states "that day will not come unless/ until the man of lawlessness is revealed." Which day?? - that day- the Day of the Lord. - Second coming. The great rebellion/ apostasy/ falling away happens, the man of lawlessness is revealed - [AC or False Prophet] - the son of destruction - then, the second coming happens - Wrath/ Judgement/ and Destruction are poured out - but we, the Christians are gone, long before any of this happens. This totally fits with the most common understanding of Revelation/Daniel. Second coming at the end of the Tribulation.
**I think we have to at least consider - [it has been discussed already on multiple other threads] that the AC / or the False Prophet may already be alive and is likely on the world stage. It's much more plausible that the person who 'emerges' to bring peace will already be a known and recognizable world leader. It makes sense that this person would already have considerable experience as a leader, who can persuade people, or someone with great power / wealth/ charismatic celebrity.
I think it also makes sense that the AC will very quickly emerge with the promise of Peace in the world-wide panic, chaos and hysteria which cripples the whole world in the aftermath of the rapture as world leaders are gone, along with tens of thousands of military leaders, and senators of the worlds largest Christian nations, USA and South Korea. It also seems that world leaders have to quickly act against Israel, seeing that USA is incapable of coming to Israel's aid. For this reason, I think the UN will certainly play a role. I also think this is Obama's goal - Be the UN leader. ;-(
I continue to watch, continue to listen and read and learn from you all, I continue to study scripture, and I hope it encourages you - I think much of the stuff we like to discuss - "Who is the HE of Daniel" ? and the exact sequence of Revelation - etc, etc. is sealed for now, and that we are experiencing labor pains. Most every person remotely interested in end -times would agree that there are more signs in heavens and on the earth, and that they are increasing in frequency and intensity - just like labor pains - But there will be a "water breaking" event/ moment, who for those watching, it will be a very clear signal.
**One thought that just came - is that as a husband/ father, other children - those who are close by know when the water breaks. ;-) At that point, we stop debating how close the contractions are -- all those things were important 5 minutes ago, but now, no one is timing the contractions, or how far apart they are - we just get in the car. As everyone who has had a baby knows - our bags have been packed. We grab the bag and go to the hospital.
Maranatha.
Disciple4life
I love this analogy of the water breaking! I agree 100%. We think we will probably be given a warning, and 3 days really seems to make sense, although we of course don't know for sure. So what could this water-breaking event be? In keeping with my theme of looking 360 degrees for all possible scenarios, I would like to present an idea just so it's on our radar if it should go down this way. You all know that I think it could be possible that the tribulation is only 1290/1335 days, based on the alternate interpretation of Daniel and the way I see Revelation fitting together, that the only thing left after the 2 witnesses ascend to heaven (day 1264) is the bowl judgments which seem to be poured out in rapid succession. I of course have no clue whether this is correct or not, because this is still sealed! I do find it interesting that we still expect Jesus to return in the fall and we are looking at a spring time rapture right now... that seems to confirm that 3.5 years is at least a possibility since a full 7 years would have Him return in the spring. Hopefully you know that I am not trying to prove I'm right but am just speaking up about what I think *could* be on the horizon. So... here's my thought... what if one of these guys we're watching were to receive a head wound and die within the next few weeks? That would be a VERY CLEAR water breaking moment! If we're all going to see eye-to-eye, something big and obvious would have to happen. Something that had a very clear time frame. Even if a peace treaty is signed, would we know the rapture is tomorrow? Or could it still be 6 months away? There would be no way to see eye-to-eye on something like a peace treaty. But let's say one of these men we're watching is assassinated. We would know that he will resurrect on the 3rd day imitating Messiah, and that would be our warning that our resurrection will occur on the 3rd day as well. So then we would have: AC Revealed >>> 3 day warning >>> Rapture/DOTL And think about this... some guy comes back to life... he doesn't have to spend 3.5 years getting people to follow him before he shows his power at the midpoint. He just shows it from the beginning. The first seal of the antichrist is opened the moment the 24 elders arrive in heaven. |
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Post by klb on Mar 5, 2018 12:09:49 GMT -6
Now wouldn’t that be amazing!! I also wonder if we will have time to warn others who are not saved.
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Post by witness1 on Mar 5, 2018 12:14:20 GMT -6
This is what I’m hoping. I keep praying that God will tell me when to blow the trumpet. I don’t want to blow it too soon and bring shame to the Lord’s name. So I feel like there needs to be something obvious...
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 4, 2021 16:27:24 GMT -6
There has been some excellent information regarding the day of Christ vs the day of the Lord. We believe the day of Christ is the rapture, but what is the day of the Lord? Is it day 1 of the tribulation? Or is the entire tribulation “the day of the Lord”? The midpoint? Would appreciate your thoughts. I wanted to try to put the quote here by blur, because some of the exact same questions are raised, and I wanted to address both. I'm sure that there is a way to put this quote by blur in it's own quote box, but I dont' know how to do that, sorry. So i've put Blur's quote in Blue to make it clear what's witness1, and me and blur blur said, "Okay, I see I got zero response to my last post, so maybe I will try again....
As best as I know, there are 4 clearly defined PRECURSORS for the DOTL to happen.
A. Elijah comes first (Malachi)
B. Blood red moon, sun darkened (Joel)
C. The man of lawlessness is revealed (2 Thess 2)
D. The apostasia (2 Thess 2)
Knowing this, is this timeline possible? (Caution: not your typical pre Trib model)
1. Covenant or peace treaty confirmed (begins 70th week)
2. Undisclosed time passes....then, Rapture just before....
3. 6th seal opened (4 seals opened during church age)
4. Undisclosed time passes (silence in Heaven), then.....
5. Abomination of Desolation
6. Trumpet judgments begin.....etc (you know the rest)
It seems to me all 4 precursors are still met and the DOTL does come suddenly like a thief in the night while people are saying “peace and safety.” This way, the temple can be rebuilt and the sacrifices resumed pretty much in “peace and safety.”
The trumpet judgments then are released after a period of silence (maybe this period is the time from 6th seal to abomination of desolation). Thus, the trumpet judgments for all intents and purposes begin the DOTL, God’s wrath, if you don’t consider the 6th seal to be the inception, makes no matter. Jesus also said immediately AFTER the abomination that this begins the GREAT TRIBULATION. "
Recently, I've been working on an extensive, deep dive word study on the Day of the Lord, and what I've found is astounding. While Day of the Lord and "That Day" have some similarities, They are not the same. The phrase "That day" refers to several different things, and has multiple positive and negative descriptions, I used @gary, I am really really hoping they will add the LSV, as it's becoming my favorite, and while Biblehub has some great features, Blueletterbible is way out ahead in many aspects. I searched across 14 different translations, and looked for every occurrence of the phrase "Day of the Lord". KJV (18 verses)NKJV (19 verses)
NLT (15 verses)
NIV (16 verses)
ESV (17 verses)
CSB (15 verses)
NASB20 (16 verses)
NASB95 (16 verses)
NET (11 verses)
RSV (18 verses)
ASV (1 verse)
DBY (1 verse)
WEB (18 verses)
HNV (18 verses) Messianic author and Jewish scholar Avi Ben Mordecai in "Signs of the Heavens" cites 16 specific passages where "that day" is positive, and side by side, 16 passages where the same phrase is negative. But the descriptions of the "Day of the Lord" are a totally different story. I listed every single passage in the Old Testament. There are 19 passages in the Old Testament, and there are 45 different descriptions, not including all the times that the same word [Darkness] [Destruction] is used multiple times.
The only exception is in Isaiah 58:13, where the phrase is "holy day of the Lord" and this passage explicitly mentions the keeping the observing the Sabbaths - Holy Days of the Lord. There is not one case of the Day of the Lord being described as positive, or "Glorious" or our "Blessed Hope" or in any way.It should be noted that not only are the words starkly different from the rapture. Look at this example where someone gives words to describe something. Gray. - Tom says - Of course it's a squirrel. Bill - "Uh, just because something is gray does not mean it's a squirrel. We need more words." Gray, tiny, timid, escapes at every chance, often portrayed in children's books as cute, cuddly, Gray, huge, aggressive, attacks unprovoked, massive razor-sharp teeth, predator, The words for a mouse and a great white shark are literally mutually exclusive. The same thing cannot be huge and tiny, or both timid and agressive, runs away when the light is on and attacks unprovoked. The same is true with the Day of the Lord, and the Rapture. The words for the Day of the Lord include Cruel, vengeance, wrath, fierce anger, destruction, great anguish, terrible, dreadful, punishment, bitter, darkness, battle. In case there was a shadow of a doubt, Amos describes the Day of the Lord in the same verse as being chased by a lion, being confronted by a bear, and then you get home and get bitten by a snake.  Insert Melting-Face/Horror emoji here. Zechariah says it's the day when houses are rifled and women are raped. Then, ** this is huge, Joel takes it to the next level. He uses two pictures of terror that are universal symbols of calamity - just in case someone might think being chased by a bear and bit by a snake is referring to the rapture. In Joel 2:31 He uses the one symbol that has been understood by Jews as an omen for thousands of years - the blood moon, and the one symbol that has been understood by Gentiles around the globe as an omen for thousands of years, - a solar eclipse.Check out this -- totally mutually exclusive descriptions, guys.
Amos 5:18, "Woe to you, [proclaimation of despair, distress, and announcement of judgment, curse] who desire the Day of the Lord. It will be darkness. "
Then, in total opposite is the rapture, Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; The Day of Christ is the rapture, which we all should be looking forward to. The phrase "Day of Christ" is only used by Paul in the entire Bible and all the passages are found in Phillippians - the Outstanding New Testament book of Joy - What else would be expect for a description of a wedding? Lastly, tying together the quotes by blur and the quote by witness1, The wedding. The Olivette discourse is Matthew 24 and 25, which is Christ's teaching on the 2nd Advent, all the events of the 2nd Advent, which include the rapture, the events of the tribulation and the 2nd coming. What's so significant about this is that this teaching - Matt 24 and 25 actually happens on the Mt of Olives, where Christ ascends, and he said, in the same manner he left, he will return -- NOT the Rapture. He went up physically in the clouds from Mt of Olives and he will return again, physically, to set his feet on the Mt of Olives. Zechariah 14. **The other thing about this that is really huge is that these 2 chapters - are filled and overflowing with wedding imagery and actual words and phrases used in Jewish weddings, which every hearer instantly understood. If you hear someone say - Dearly beloved, we are gathered together, in a graduation speech or at a funeral, you would not only recognize it, but think it's odd, because it's an established part of our wedding tradition that spans generations. Guys, this is huge, -because it's not just speculation or some tradition from the Talmud. He intentionally filled these passages about the rapture and 2nd Advent with wedding words and stories. In Matthew 25 we find a clear rapture picture, - the parable of the wedding. In Jewish weddings, they had ten bridesmaids, and there was special person who goes ahead and blows a trumpet announcing that the groom is coming for the bride. The phrase, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord," is explicitly a part of Jewish wedding, and this passage is read by Jewish grooms to this day at the wedding. The bride and groom went into the chamber for 7 days and would not come out again, until after the 7 days, and then they had the wedding supper. **This is why so many people mistakenly read the passage in Rev 19 and think this is the rapture. It's not, - it's the Marriage supper of the Lamb, after they were in the chupah for 7 days/ 7 years. Rev 19:9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’ ” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” This is also why it's no coincidence that the "Time of Jacob's trouble" [Jacob is Israel] is for the Jews, and it's precisely why it's no coincidence that all over the world, Jews understand that the Wedding of the Messiah happens on Feast of Trumpets, - and also believe that the great resurrection happens at Feast of Trumpets, - at the Last Trumpet. God has sovereignly ordained the gospel in the stars - and He has sovereignly ordained that these symbols are understood even now by Jews everywhere, and when the rapture is fulfilled at the Last Trumpet, and say 85 million people are all resurrected, millions of Jews will come to Christ, and we have 144,000 Jewish witnesses. Because the veil on their eyes will be lifted, and in this way - they will be provoked to jealousy. The reason I believe the rapture happens before the tribulation, has been brilliantly stated by Gary and so many others, but for me, it all comes down to this - when we look at the feasts, and the whole counsel of scripture, it's clear that the primary passage of Christ about the end times is filled with wedding imagery, pictures and even actual wedding phrases in use for thousands of years. We see the same pattern over and over in scripture of righteous knowing in advance before being caught away - and we also see the same pattern of the feasts being a timeclock and the fact that the first four were already fulfilled in order, and Zechariah tells us exactly how the last one will be fulfilled. That only leaves 2 - Feast of trumpets and Day of Atonement. It gives me hope and great joy, and it is with for this reason that i am "Looking for the blessed Hope, the glorious appearing of our Great God and saviour Jesus Christ." "Terrible Day of the Lord vs Glorious Rapture" and "Day of the Lord, vs Day of Christ" are public project on Scripture Mark, BlueletterBible.com |
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We grab the bag and go to the hospital. 
Insert Melting-Face/Horror emoji here.