Post by yardstick on Sept 17, 2018 21:38:37 GMT -6
I appreciate your analysis here, venge. I have a couple questions, and I hope you can help answer them. I've color coded them to the highlighted items above:
1. Isn't there one other possibility: The tribulation saints? Isn't it possible there are four groups of people who endure (at least some part of) the tribulation: 144k and trib saints, unbelievers who take the mark; and saved remnant of Israel hidden away in the safe place (whether or not it is Petra) after escaping the AoD - this last group maybe a subset of the trib saints.
2. If the 'elect' (either the saved remnant of Israel, or 144k) are huddled down in, say, Petra (a single location), how can they be gathered from the ends of the earth?
What do you think?
Hey brother! Ok.....
To answer your first question:
You had mentioned 4 possible groups. I will put them below.
1. Tribulation saints
2. 144k of the 12 tribes
3. Unbelievers with the mark of the beast
4. The saved remnants of Israel
I’m on my phone at work so I cannot provide scripture at this time, but I’ll comment.
The Bible does not call those believers that die in the seals, Tribulation saints. They are believers only. I recognize that the time of sorrows is a time of Tribulation, but I believe as many do, that they are us. To call them Tribulation saints suggests that the rapture happens prior to their death. Not everyone holds to that doctrine.
Unbelievers with the mark will be tossed into the lake of fire therefore they are not the elect.
The remnant of Israel is removed, most likely, to other nations if we believe it is the same time as Ezekiel 38-39 and they will come back to reclaim the land. If we don’t believe that, they are still removed to safety because the earth (mankind) swallows up the flood (armies) sent out of the serpents (wicked men) mouth.
Nothing literal of a serpent who cause water to come out of his mouth to drown people unless this serpent is Godzilla x’s 20 tall!
So I boil it down to the 144k and us. If it’s the 144k, why would they receive the HS before the 1st trumpet and not be recognized in heaven when we see a great multitude that is not numbered? If they are the first fruits, are they there to witness and follow what happened in Daniel “to turn many white” even though many “will fall”? Because we know in the trumpets that if there is preaching by these 144k or others, no one that survives the plagues “repents of their” sorceries, murders, fornication, etc....to me, they serve as a testimony to the wicked men.
But, if not, and they are the elect, how do you make sense of them being raptured by angels and Christ, and a trumpet in the clouds to which we then read 1 is taken and is left?
I look at it as they don’t get raptured but stay and serve to witness. If I am wrong, which is possible, it must be shown where they are removed and it must be shown if they are gone.....then who is left that is sealed because even the locust army that comes ONLY hurts those without the seal of God therefore making the case, those sealed (144k) still are there.
Hope I answered it lol, let me know
Consider the following word search for 'elect':
biblehub.net/search.php?q=elect
There are those considered to be the elect well before any harpazo has taken place:
Titus 1:1 ... "Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God's elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness ..."
1 Peter 1:1 ... "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia ..."
Romans 11:6-7 ... "6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace. 7What then? What Israel was seeking, it failed to obtain, but the elect did..."
Romans 8:33 ... "Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies..."
2 John 1:1 ... "The elder to the elect lady and her children..."
2 John 1:13 ... "The children of your elect sister greet you..."
None of the above were enduring the 7 year period of time commonly referred to as the "Tribulation", aka, Daniel's 70th week. Nevertheless, we may draw the conclusion that whether or not there is a harpazo, according to the above, the elect are those saved by Grace through faith; aka Christian believers.
I would draw the conclusion that the elect are both pre- and post- harpazo. The 'pre-trib elect' are the ones referred to in the above passages. The "Trib saint elect' are the ones referred to in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. IMHO, there is nothing precluding the 144k from being part of the Trib saints, but they do appear to be of a special class.
Check out this analysis I did a while back on the difference between the pre-trib harpazo saints, the post-trib harpazo (non-jew) saints, and the 144k:
unsealed.boards.net/post/17166/thread
The 'elect' are the Trib saints... “...they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple..."
The 'redeemed from the earth' are the 144k... "...No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed..."
The 'male son'... (pre-trib elect) rule with Christ with an iron scepter.
IMHO, the Trib saints martyred after the harpazo, but before the 5th seal. Recall that the 2nd seal was war, the 3rd seal was famine and 4th seal was death. It is certainly possible that Trib saints could die during any of the events described in these seals... "...Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,e were killed just as they had been..."
There are other distinctions: in general, each group gets different rewards and is classified differently in the millennial kingdom (and beyond?); and I would define 'classified' as 'they perform different tasks and duties'. Not different ranks, hierarchically speaking.
So, IMHO, the angels that go to the four corners of the earth to gather the elect, would be the angels collecting the trib saint survivors from around the world to bring them to Jerusalem at the end of the Trib.