rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Sept 16, 2018 2:11:55 GMT -6
welcome pault ! Since you started this thread with the title of Matt24 I will role with it: 1st, as I understand, Matt 24 is Jesus answering 3 parts of a question asked by his disciples: vs 3 “Tell us, (1) when will these things happen [the temple distrusction], and (2) what will be the sign of Your coming, and (3) of the end of the age?”Has anyone ever noticed that Matthew writes down three times that Jesus warns about being deceived ? vs 4 5And Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one misleads you. 5“For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many.vs 11 “Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.vs23 &24 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. 24“For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.Ahhh, this interests me in that not many people see the "three mentions" of fake christs/false prophet here and take notice in a perceptive manner as you have done. It just so happens in my Exegesis on Matt. 24 I noticed this and pondered why this was pointed out three times. And I also built my thesis around the three questions whereas many people point to only two questions. Many people seem to think John 5:43 infers that the Jews will accept the Anti-Christ as their king/Messiah, but I see that as Jesus speaking unto the pharisees of his day, they rightly understood that Rome was the fourth beast of Daniel 7, so naturally they expected the Little Horn to show up at any moment, and thus they forced "Messiah's" onto the scene thinking he was needed to save them, of course that will happen 2000 years later, after the Church age. So Matt. 24:1-6 is about the 70 AD Event, so we get one mention of fake christs and the disciples are warned to basically stay away, this will not be me (Jesus) returning, you will hear of wars and rumours, but do not be troubled, the end (end times) is by and by. Then Jesus transitions into the 2000 year Church age, where nation will rise against nation (many wars), this is the beginning of the sorrows (birth pangs) but the Disciples are still mentioned here, and told they would die Martyrs for the most part. Over this 2000 some odd year period there of course will be many false prophets (preachers and teachers)but he that endures unto the end [of one's life] will be saved. The Gospel must be preached unto all the world, then the end will come, thus we are Raptured when our mission is complete, then the 70th week will begin. This is the second mention of the false prophets, it seems to be about the overall Church age period, whereas the first mention seems t have been about the 70 AD Event. Then we of course get the third mention which is THE Anti-Christ and THE False Prophet, in the time of Jacob's Troubles. So I built me exegesis on this chapter around the three mentions of fake christs/false prophets as per the timing of Matthew 24. So I was rather enthralled that you mentioned that. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't know how to multi-quote here yet so I will just add on. Someone mentioned the Elect not being /deceived/harmed because of the Rapture. Well that is true, we will be in Heaven, but the Elect spoken of in Matt. 24 are the Jews who have repented, thus they listen to Jesus' voice and Flee Judea unto Petra I assume. Most people do not catch why they can't be deceived because we sometimes just overlook the simple verses which sit right before us. But right after that statement Jesus tells us why they can't be deceived, he says " Behold I have told you in verse 25, then says in vs. 26, hey look, if they tell you I am in the desert or a secret [store] chamber, don't believe it !! For as the lightning comes out of the east to the west so shall the son of man, then in verses 29-31 he tells them he's coming in the clouds. So the Jews in Petra can't be deceived because Jesus has told them how he is returning (with the Church in tow), in the Eastern Skies, so they are not going to follow any man on earth who doesn't descend from the skies. Amen. Two-thirds of the Jews will perish because they refuse to accept Christ, by the 1/3 who repent will be protected and will heed Jesus' words, of course.
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Post by venge on Sept 16, 2018 11:12:05 GMT -6
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Post by yardstick on Sept 16, 2018 11:55:32 GMT -6
Then my eyes turned to the last phrase: ".... if possible, even the elect". Why is it not possible? Because the elect won't be here then. The elect are going to be raptured, BEFORE this happens. Stephen, Great to be here on the Lord's day!! You said the elect will be raptured BEFORE this happens...but the verse disagrees.. The days that will be shortened (For then shall be great tribulation) will be the days when the AoD is setup per verse 21, and it is at that time, that those days will be shortened for the elects sake. It begs to ask the question then, are the elect here the 144k or are we the elect? The bible describes both us as elect and them (144k)...so which is it? Concerning these elect... Are the 144k ever mentioned as being saved by Christ?: 1. in the clouds 2. with a trumpet 3. gathering his wheat into his barn 4. sending his angels Would love to hear your replies... And when we do that, after the talk of the "elect" being saved....why do we see in verse 41: It boggles the mind...…….. I appreciate your analysis here, venge. I have a couple questions, and I hope you can help answer them. I've color coded them to the highlighted items above: 1. Isn't there one other possibility: The tribulation saints? Isn't it possible there are four groups of people who endure (at least some part of) the tribulation: 144k and trib saints, unbelievers who take the mark; and saved remnant of Israel hidden away in the safe place (whether or not it is Petra) after escaping the AoD - this last group maybe a subset of the trib saints.
2. If the 'elect' (either the saved remnant of Israel, or 144k) are huddled down in, say, Petra (a single location), how can they be gathered from the ends of the earth?
What do you think?
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Sept 16, 2018 15:30:21 GMT -6
I would like to interject: The 144K are Sealed, which seems to be a distinction from the others in Ch 14 of Rev who are reaped...why the difference?
reaping is not really a simple, quiet thing. There is a bit of agitation at minimum to remove the chaff from the wheat head, and to make Wine out of a grape harvest, sure seems a bit violent...yet these 144K also called First Fruits, hmmm, just thinking of Paul and what he taught about the order of things... also not considered defiled, pure, pure like a Child, humbling bfore his Father or one who comes to Christ, better yet, as that bride..(2 Cor 11:2). The Firstfruit description has my attention. How can a miraculously unblinded tribe member of jewish practice be a first fruit? though I do have faith that they will bear fruit one day, but golly, it seems after 2000 years, the Christ follower must be more significant to the kingdom than just being hidden in it...
...who else is Sealed from the teachings of the apostles? Seems like we are taught much about this thru baptism teachings, Holy Spirit stuff in the episitles..Is there a prior group that is talked about BEFORE this Sealed group of 144K that hands down describes and represents the raptured person?
I have wondered that if the rapture is so key to opening the eyes of a particular group of people that surely it must be talked about in Revelation, no? After all, we, who answer the call in Faith, are we not considered Sons of God? (Rom 8), born again anew? also, 1 Chron does a neat description of a similar quantity of peoples in the management of an earthly temple construct, so it bears to reason that a similar situation will arise as the Stones are quarried to build the Kingdom, of whom Jesus has been Worthy to Rule... Questions to ponder as we test everything..
Also I like to throw out there that Matt 24 is not exclusive to Matt 24, but perhaps needs to be considered in the context of the prior chapters and the one that comes after it, considering the scriptures in the full context of the audience at hand...the "leaders" of the church in charge of its day were having a wee bit trouble understanding this thing called the Heart of a man...they were looking for an event to be a certain way, a physical kingdom that suppressed enemies, even wiping them out would be better... and yet they could not even see the Lord God among them (Emmanuel) Jesus seems to remind many of where one stores his treasures, what truly truly it is to Walk in Faith..stuff like that...and even saying camels have an easier job getting into the kingdom thru the eye of a needle than a rich man..( a beast of burden vs. a person who is not challenged, rich even with blessings, including but not exclusive money)...
maranatha!
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Post by tritium on Sept 16, 2018 16:00:06 GMT -6
Finally! After 9 months of lurking, I have found a post where I agree with Venge! I believe the elect referred to in this instance are the Jewish remnant. Just my two cents.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2018 1:57:38 GMT -6
Then my eyes turned to the last phrase: ".... if possible, even the elect". Why is it not possible? Because the elect won't be here then. The elect are going to be raptured, BEFORE this happens. Steph ean, Great to be here on the Lord's day!!...
Sure? How then do you interpret the following scripture?
By the way, the post you digged out is a really old one and in the meantime I have changed my mind a bit. It was any case only a half-baked thought and your appreciated analysis showed that.
Maybe the core of the problem is to define who the "elect" are. And there are some interesting aspects to consider mentioned by other members here in this thread.
Another associated issue is the question of the "shortened time".
How can a time (I have especially the Great Tribulation in mind) be shortened, if it is determined in many places by an exact number of days, months, years.....?
Wouldn't that mean, that these numbers are not to be taken seriously? Which 'time' is shortened...?
I know, that this point has been discussed here in the past......but I just for me came to the conclusion that this is something I can't figure out for now.
Maybe I will understand later.
In any case I decided that this is not the most important topic for me to deal with. But I am always open to solid explanations.
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Matthew 24
Sept 17, 2018 7:49:27 GMT -6
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Post by venge on Sept 17, 2018 7:49:27 GMT -6
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Matthew 24
Sept 17, 2018 7:55:55 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by venge on Sept 17, 2018 7:55:55 GMT -6
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Matthew 24
Sept 17, 2018 8:06:09 GMT -6
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Post by venge on Sept 17, 2018 8:06:09 GMT -6
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Post by Natalie on Sept 17, 2018 10:24:26 GMT -6
Just an FYI venge but you have spelled Stephan's name wrong twice now. It seems like you have a contradiction...we are children of the light and the darkness cannot over take us, but yet you say we will be here when the world is completely dark. If the church is here, then there is still light.
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Post by venge on Sept 17, 2018 12:39:18 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2018 12:49:16 GMT -6
venge , thank you for your attempt to explain to me why it would be great to be here on the DOTL. I still don't see a reason to be excited over the DOTL when Amos 5:8 said otherwise....? Maybe I didn't get it yet. In a way you convinced me to hold fast to the more literal interpretation which seems much more straight forward and easier to understand to me. Still wouldn't rule out the possibility of a spiritual application, but how you interpreted it seems to be (at least to me) a bit too much like "thinking around the corner". The interjection of Natalie is also a reasonable objection. And your explanation raises the next question: when is the 6th seal to be regarded as opened/fulfilled?
EDIT: Just realized you have answered several questions in your reply to Natalie .... THX Btw, as long as you don't tag me with "e"....
EDIT2: Now your interpretation makes much more sense to me....will think about it.
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Post by venge on Sept 17, 2018 13:07:21 GMT -6
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Post by Natalie on Sept 17, 2018 13:21:07 GMT -6
Thank you venge for your explanation. It makes your other response much clearer.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2018 13:43:32 GMT -6
... Is the sun literal here? How about Amos 8:9 If the sun goes down, then there is no light but then God says in broad day light....so how does the light of the sun go down yet there is still light outside and the earth is dark? It is because it was daylight outside but the light (spiritual light) was gone and only darkness (wickedness) remained. That's why In Genesis, we see daylight yet the men of Sodom are punished because of the great wickedness in the earth caused it to be dark. ...
This scripture in Amos 8:9 I see clearly as literal. Remember the 3h darkness on the day of Jesus crucifixion?
The phrase "broad daylight" is an interpretation of the translators. If you check out the hebrew word 'yome' for yourself, the meaning can very well be "in the midst of the day". BDB says: "Origin: from an unsued root meaning to be hot"
I tend to interpret this whole thing to be more literal and with a real physical/astronomical implication. I expect astronomical/celestial upheavals taking place in the endtimes, just as it was in the times of Jeremiah and the OT prophets.
That being said this doesn't rule out any spiritual application.
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