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Post by kjs on Jan 17, 2018 13:46:19 GMT -6
Would like to offer caution when attempting to summarize Jacob/Israel as having only two brides. (I do not understand their culture well enough to understand how they reckoned the relationship of the other women) . But the twelve Sons (we do have listed one daughter but most likely there were other daughters as well)... were from four different women. Here is the primary list ....
1. REUBEN - Leah
2. SIMEON - Leah
3. LEVI - Leah
4. JUDAH - Leah
5. DAN - Rachel/Bilhah
6. NAPHTALI - Rachel/Bilhah
7. GAD - Leah/Zilpah
8. ASHER - Leah/Zilpah
9. ISSACHAR - Leah
10. ZEBULUN - Leah
11. JOSEPH - Rachel
12. BENJAMIN - Rachel
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jan 17, 2018 16:20:36 GMT -6
so kj, while I was finding the groups similar phrases in Rev, I noticed that the sons of Israel will have their names on the angels of the 12 gates of New Jerusalem:
Rev 21:12 It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel.
Would this equate to in any way to the 144,000? other than, I wonder if their work is never done, so to speak, that they manage the gates to the City?
My mom keeps asking me about the bride topic. I know there are threads on it, so will go look there first. It is a wonder sometimes that in Genesis a man leaves his parents and cleaves to one woman. Gen 2:24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. 25And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed. So why is it that they had more than one wife?
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Post by witness1 on Jan 17, 2018 16:52:43 GMT -6
This is a good point! Will have to think about what these 2 extra women mean. My understanding of their culture is that the children of the maidservants were considered children of the wives. Either way, Leah had 6 (7 with Dinah?) children of her own before Rachel had any of her own, and the types and shadows of the beloved/chosen and unloved/unchosen are there regardless of the concubines thrown in the mix. I wouldn't call concubines wives. There was no betrothal, chuppah, etc. Will definitely think about this though.
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Post by witness1 on Jan 17, 2018 16:56:02 GMT -6
so kj, while I was finding the groups similar phrases in Rev, I noticed that the sons of Israel will have their names on the angels of the 12 gates of New Jerusalem: Rev 21:12 It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. Would this equate to in any way to the 144,000? other than, I wonder if their work is never done, so to speak, that they manage the gates to the City? My mom keeps asking me about the bride topic. I know there are threads on it, so will go look there first. It is a wonder sometimes that in Genesis a man leaves his parents and cleaves to one woman. Gen 2:24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. 25And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed. So why is it that they had more than one wife?
Hasn't the fact that Jacob had more than one wife been curious since the beginning? There does not seem to be any moral lesson for us to glean. "Don't get tricked by your father-in-law?" Not really anything that applies to us. The only answer I can come up with is that our God's love is scandalous and beyond explanation. |
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Post by kjs on Jan 22, 2018 13:49:26 GMT -6
while checking into the "other women" -- also do the same for Abraham and Hagar.....
the entire "race war" between Jewish people and Islam people -- all comes back to this single event.....
Whereas the 144K witnesses all stem from the twelve SONS -- which has Four Separate mothers.
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Post by witness1 on Jan 22, 2018 20:31:04 GMT -6
The same night he arose and took his two wives, his two female servants, and his eleven children, and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. - Genesis 32:22
The two wives and two servants are listed separately. Concubines have never been wives, and I think this is true for any culture. If a man today has a mistress, that would not make her a wife. Bilah and Zilpah were servants used to build the kingdom of Israel but did not have the status of wife.
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Post by kjs on Jan 24, 2018 10:21:18 GMT -6
The two wives and two servants are listed separately. Concubines have never been wives, and I think this is true for any culture. If a man today has a mistress, that would not make her a wife. Bilah and Zilpah were servants used to build the kingdom of Israel but did not have the status of wife. My point was never about whether "Bilah and Zilpah" held the status of wives (though now that it is mentioned -- why the heck not) The point is you have 12 Sons who collectively become known as Israel (or God's chosen race) Several of the "twelve" had mothers who were "not wives" and therefore out of contention for any inherited property -- yet they were all counted as the collective for the chosen race.... Along these same lines of thought; these men of God -- had sexual relations with multiple different women (and based on the count of children) multiple times... so when did the "one man / one woman" mantra become entrenched into the psyche of society to say what was the most righteous response when it came to human relationships? I know that is a huge jump in topic, but even in New Testament times -- it was perfectly acceptable for men to have multiple wives and/or concubines. In fact it was so commonly practice that Paul when describing the "leaders of a church" had to specifically say that these leaders were only married to one women. |
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Post by witness1 on Jan 24, 2018 10:45:08 GMT -6
I’m sorry... I must be misunderstanding you. I thought you were saying that Jacob did not have 2 wives but rather had 4 wives. Is your point actually that having multiple wives was normal and ok and that the idea of only one wife is not “the most righteous response in human relationships”?
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Post by sawdy on Jan 24, 2018 10:58:33 GMT -6
The two wives and two servants are listed separately. Concubines have never been wives, and I think this is true for any culture. If a man today has a mistress, that would not make her a wife. Bilah and Zilpah were servants used to build the kingdom of Israel but did not have the status of wife. My point was never about whether "Bilah and Zilpah" held the status of wives (though now that it is mentioned -- why the heck not) The point is you have 12 Sons who collectively become known as Israel (or God's chosen race) Several of the "twelve" had mothers who were "not wives" and therefore out of contention for any inherited property -- yet they were all counted as the collective for the chosen race.... Along these same lines of thought; these men of God -- had sexual relations with multiple different women (and based on the count of children) multiple times... so when did the "one man / one woman" mantra become entrenched into the psyche of society to say what was the most righteous response when it came to human relationships? I know that is a huge jump in topic, but even in New Testament times -- it was perfectly acceptable for men to have multiple wives and/or concubines. In fact it was so commonly practice that Paul when describing the "leaders of a church" had to specifically say that these leaders were only married to one women. I was reading as part of a study the story of Hagar. This story helped to point out the reasoning for one man/one wife. It is found in Genesis, so even back then God did not want plural marriages. Sarah became jealous when Hagar got pregnant although she had told her husband to sleep with Hagar. Basically, the study I was doing was that Sarah should have remained faithful to the Lord and believed that he would provide the need for Abraham to become the father of many nations through her and no one else. But she succumbed to the practices of the heathens around her. It was perfectly acceptable by the secular society to have multiple wives and concubines and so she had Abraham sleep with Hagar. It bothers me personally when people try to justify things by saying righteous men of God had multiple wives so it is okay. God gave Adam one wife not many. David made a big mistake which he probably regretted the rest of his life when he got Bathsheba pregnant. God punished him by taking away the child's life. Instead of sticking with the wives he already had, his lust and ability as a king to have whatever he wanted (secular culture around him) made it so he could have Bathsheba. And then she was pregnant with his child so he had her husband killed. And then she was a widow and needed help so he had her brought to him. Talk about problems! One after another because he chose to live like the heathens. We all know Solomon was avery wise man but did he die loving God or earthly riches? To me, it seems the latter is more the case. It is sad that he squandered such gifts from God by taking so many wives and then worshipping their Gods. There are probably more examples of why having more than one wife is not God's intention for us but for now I will talk about why I said at the start of the last paragraph that is bothers me. I believe God desires for us to have a companion and to be a companion. As we get old and not as attractive as we once were, I have peace in knowing that the Husband that God provided for me, should (as long as we are following God's ways and not men's) be there to provide and protect me. The stress of not being able to conceive more children and the stress of weighing more than I did when he met me are taken away and put into God's hands. They don't become issues that affect my relationship with God or my Husband. Starting with the issue of saying "men can have more than one wife because it is in the bible" opens a giant can of worms. Before you know it, many things that were shown to us in stories to explain proper vs. Improper behavior as a believer of God become okay because "hey, they did it in the Bible". Homosexuality, adultery, murder, stealing, lying become okay because people did them in the Bible. It may be pointed out to me that those are addressed though the 10 commandments and plural marriage is not, but what about the commandment to not covet? You are not supposed to cover ANYTHING that is your neighbors, so that would include taking his daughter as a second wife. I know my reply doesn't address the 144,000 and as such, is derailing the thread, but I wanted to add my thoughts on what I have learned about plural marriages before it derailed any further. Thanks! |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jan 24, 2018 12:22:19 GMT -6
Oh this is really good stuff, sawdy! And a good teaching you put there! In my wanting to know a bit more about these 144,000 witnessess, one can get into a huge number of rabbit holes due to all the intricacies of the OT stories. That is why I have been silent here. The conversation is going to lead us where the Holy Spirit wants to lead us, so sometimes we call them rabbit holes...
From one simple question we were led to various events that seem like nothing to do with the initial question, but did we get that far off track?
On the surface, yeah, the 144,000 are a simple thing. I do not think it is something not to consider having more meaning. If it be a group of witnesses, it has a very specific numbering, it has a specific tribal reference, and there is the sealing of these witnesses, too, and sealed as glorified bodies first, not pre-raptured fleshly men...
so when we are transformed, how does the term virgin apply then? Are we going to have sex in our immortal form? that is one question that came to me. Are these men then, ones that have not had sex in their new bodies, so this sealing of the witnesses is early in this post-rapture age, meaning, this gives a hint as to the timeframe post rapture? John is given so much to see and things are happening here and here and there and here....and then there again..
Then reminder of the thought I had that these "virgin men not defiled by women" possibly mean they are men in the restored state prior to the fall of man? giving us another example of how the Lord will see us when we become immortalized...raptured...we are restored, but others are not yet, hence the witnesses are commissioned to share this Good News of Who Christ is and what it takes to partake of this Good Newsin the post-rapture age..
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Post by kjs on Jan 24, 2018 12:37:11 GMT -6
I know my reply doesn't address the 144,000 and as such, is derailing the thread, but I wanted to add my thoughts on what I have learned about plural marriages before it derailed any further. Thanks! I derailed the thread and SAWDY gave an excellent response to the idea of plural marriage of just because the great heroes of the Bible had multiple wives / sex partners.... Now, I can see how my original response could be taken as support for polygamy -- which was not the point I was driving at. My point was that the 144K -- are listed as members of the twelve sons Though one son -- is completely missing --- DAN and one grandson was substituted for the missing son Manasseh and one son -- Joseph basically gets referenced twice -- if you count Joseph as the father of Manasseh so with the exception of DAN (who was the son of one of the Non-Wives) Naphtali, Gad, Asher are the three other sons -- whose mothers were Non-wives -- yet they are included within the list One ends up with at least four sons -- that should not be technically of Israel -- yet they are |
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Post by witness1 on Jan 24, 2018 12:45:00 GMT -6
I agree that God’s plan has only been for a man to have one wife from the beginning. That should be clear from the garden. We know that God did not intend Abraham to take a concubine. I think that’s what is so seemingly scandalous about Jacob marrying 2 women. It is against God’s intended order of things, yet it’s what happened. And what is strange is that there was no, “and this was an abomination to the Lord” or any other type of message that went with it. We see this often in the OT... God choosing to do things that seem to go against His laws. Like choosing Jacob over Esau and Ephraim over Manasseh. He does as He pleases.
For the LORD has chosen Jacob for himself,
Israel as his own possession.
For I know that the LORD is great,
and that our Lord is above all gods.
Whatever the LORD pleases, he does,
in heaven and on earth,
in the seas and all deeps.
Psalm 135:4-6
My point is definitely not that it is ok for men to have more than one wife. My point is that, even though it is against God’s laws, Jacob had more than one wife and we don’t see God rebuke him. It seems like God allowed this and even planned this. This is hard for me to understand, and I hope I’m not speaking falsehood, but it seems to me that God makes the rules for man but that He can break them if He pleases. It is scandalous that Jacob had 2 wives.
EDIT: I was working on this post without seeing the other responses that came in right before I posted this one. Looks like there is a lot to talk about!
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Post by katmak on Jan 24, 2018 14:02:17 GMT -6
I think Jacob/Judah had another wife, with children sometime after Joseph was taken and sold. Plus there's that nasty bit of business with his daughter in law (Tamar) and the twins she had by him. Was there no provision for Tamar's boys in the kingdom? Also, what of Ephraim? Were they absorbed into Joseph's number?
Sorry to continue with further derailing, but this is bringing up questions for me.
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Post by kjs on Jan 24, 2018 14:17:30 GMT -6
I think Jacob/Judah had another wife, with children sometime after Joseph was taken and sold. Plus there's that nasty bit of business with his daughter in law (Tamar) and the twins she had by him. Was there no provision for Tamar's boys in the kingdom? Also, what of Ephraim? Were they absorbed into Joseph's number? Sorry to continue with further derailing, but this is bringing up questions for me. It shocks our inner, finer feelings to see Jesus Christ's lineage interwoven with such abhorrent degradation as we have in this chapter (Genesis 38). We cannot but wonder how Judah and Tamar have the distinction of mention in that sacred genealogy of Jesus Christ. We also learn that Tamar as being more righteous than Judah. Now, it does appear that Tamar's boys are included under Judah's line -- so they are part of Israel. In fact if they were not -- then Jesus himself would be outside of Israel as well...... And to make it even more interesting, is that in the genealogy of Jesus Christ -- you have Tamar who conceived through prostitution, Rachab (rahab) who was a prostitute in Jericho, and Ruth who was a moabite...... |
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Post by kjs on Jan 24, 2018 14:21:22 GMT -6
Deuteronomy 23 states:
A bastard must not enter God’s marriage group. Even after the tenth generation, he may not enter God’s marriage group. An Ammonite or Moabite may not enter God’s marriage group. They may never enter God’s marriage group, even after the tenth generation. This is because they did not greet you with bread and water when you were on the way out of Egypt, and also because they hired Balaam son of Beor from Pethor in Aram Naharaim to curse you. Do not despise the Edomite, since he is your brother. Do not despise the Egyptian, since you were an immigrant in his land. [Therefore,] children born to [members of these nations] in the third generation [after becoming proselytes] may enter God’s marriage group.
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