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Post by thetimeoftheend on Dec 8, 2017 17:32:39 GMT -6
I want to thank you all for your kindness. I feel childish jumping in here... like when my daughter interjects "I have an idea!" when her father and I are discussing complicated travel plans or financial matters.  You all have been very gracious... thank you! Don't be feel childish. This is a thing we are all trying to sort out together. We are all limited by our human knowledge, this is a thing God has hidden - and we are searching it out. One thing is beyond doubt we are close, we saw the Great Sign, we saw so many things associated with the Great Eclipse prior to the sign - it touched America precisely as the sunset in Israel, passed through 7 cities named Salem, the natural disasters that have followed. In my opinion it has just continued to unfold before our eyes - we may not know which assumptions are wrong this side of heaven, but dont feel foolish, we are all brothers and sisters with something to add to the conversation. |
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Post by thetimeoftheend on Dec 8, 2017 17:44:51 GMT -6
Also, witness1, I would encourage you to take a look at Daniel Matson's stuff that Natalie had mentioned previously, it is looking for a rapture somewhere in Hannukah. I had to read the article a few times to wrap my head around what he was saying, but it would appear to still allow for a Day of Atonement Return of Christ in 2024. I don't know that I am entirely convinced, but I think it is certainly plausible. Additionally, I think the symbolism is most certainly there. In addition to that, there has been some hubbub about an alignment that some folks may see as the Great Dragon around the same time. Once again, I am not thoroughly convinced, but find it plausible. |
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Post by Natalie on Dec 8, 2017 18:03:19 GMT -6
I feel the same way thetimeoftheend.. including needing to read it several times.  Not entirely convinced, but worth looking at. |
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Post by witness1 on Dec 8, 2017 21:25:36 GMT -6
I did read through it quickly and thought, "I'm going to have to read this again when I have more time!" I haven't done so yet, but I did pull out one tidbit that feasts are celebrated a month late in a time of war, so that would buy an extra 30 days so to speak. I will look forward to going through it more carefully, although I am feeling more convinced about the Dec 31st date than Hanukkah. Also, I found an interesting idea that the Wormwood system will change the earth's orbit back to a 360 day solar year and that the Antichrist will officially change the calendar to match the new reality. Daniel 7:25 "He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time." Although I don't agree with some of the other theology from this site, the theory of Wormwood changing earth's orbit is certainly interesting. The article references the Earth-Mars Wars which I believe Paul Dawson based his Mars video on. escapeallthesethings.com/1260-day-42-month-tribulation/Wormwood is the 3rd trumpet, so it seems like at a minimum it would happen during the first half of the tribulation. This means that adding an extra 5.25 days to the calendar every year would buy 20 days or so over a 4 year period. Combining these 2 ideas, you reach an extra 50 days. Feedback appreciated! |
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Post by rt on Dec 9, 2017 14:02:41 GMT -6
I want to thank you all for your kindness. I feel childish jumping in here... like when my daughter interjects "I have an idea!" when her father and I are discussing complicated travel plans or financial matters. You all have been very gracious... thank you! Not childish at all, there are no wrong questions. I admire your enthusiasm for the prophetic word. I was in exactly the same place (not being able to go back to "sleep") about 11 years ago, and my mind took me down many different paths on my search for understanding. I still have not arrived and questions are the best way to begin to understand. So don't ever feel childish for asking. If you never inquire you may miss out on a great learning opportunity and so might the rest of us. So in the vein of "Finding Dory"---just keep asking!!!  |
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Post by witness1 on Feb 7, 2018 11:07:17 GMT -6
Interesting proposition! Would love to hear more! Are you suggesting that we have a 5th assumption that God doesn't have an alternative way to accomplish the first 4 assumptions even though He could have some sort of trump card? Allow me to make a suggestion by way of explanation, which is related to a hypothesis I made after 9/23: If the feasts are for the Jews, then the harpazo does not necessarily have to fall on a feast day. It may then follow, that the signs of the times have nothing to do with the feasts. They are for the gentiles, where the feasts are for the Jews (as representations). It may then be possible to suggest parallel Tribulation timelines: one where there is a focus on the Jews in some prophecies - Jacob's Trouble; and another where there is a focus on the gentiles (The Tribulation/Great Tribulation) in other prophecies. There is nothing that prevents overlapping from occurring.If this is the case, there has most definitely been a great deal of conflation going on; notwithstanding the possibility that some prophecies/events may affect both Jew and gentile. If one considers this position, then much of what has been discussed lately can be laid to rest, since there would be allowance for different events occurring to different peoples.
- It certainly becomes possible, for instance, for Israel to be intractable when it comes to taking the mark; until forced to do so subsequent to the AoD (invasion of Israel, trampling of the temple et al).
- It may allow for Israel to 'make a deal with the Death' for 3-1/2 years; then realize their mistake at the AoD and repent, fleeing into the wilderness.
- It may allow for an 'equal but different' Tribulation.
- It may allow for the sealing of Jewish virgin men who will demonstrate the holiness of God on earth to a 'pagan' population (what some may hypothesize was Israel's job to begin with)
- It may allow for those who are unsaved but who have loved ones, and know believers who have been pre-trib harpazo'd to become saved during the Trib.
- It may allow for an explanation of timelines which do not seem to match up mathematically (day counts). Including, but not limited to an 'offset' of a select number of days from one timeline when compared to the other (Jacob's Trouble may have already started, though the Tribulation may have yet to start).
- It may allow God to deal with Israel one way (focus shift to 70th week), while dealing with non-Jews another (judgment for rejecting Christ).
I thought this response was brilliant when you first posted it, but I didn't understand how it could be possible at the time. So I tucked this idea in the back of my mind in case something should come to light later. I now, for reasons I have yet had time to defend, believe that things are exactly as you have proposed. I believe Jacob's trouble may have already started. But it didn't start a few years ago... it could have started with the baptism and ministry of Jesus until His sacrifice and offering in the middle of the week. The first 3.5 years were fulfilled in Him. Then the grand parenthesis or grand pause in Daniel's 70 weeks may not have been at the beginning of the 70th week as we have been taught but rather was in the middle when the Messiah was cut off. So basically we have been at the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week for 2000 years. I am not saying we are at the midpoint of the tribulation however. I believe the tribulation has yet to begin... which is like you say that there could be a different timeline for different peoples. I only see a little over 3.5 years mentioned in Revelation, so the "great tribulation" is yet to come (for both Jews and Gentiles, although they look different from one another as the purposes are different) but would fulfill the second half of Daniel's 70th week. Thoughts? |
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Post by kjs on Feb 8, 2018 15:45:44 GMT -6
Allow me to make a suggestion by way of explanation, which is related to a hypothesis I made after 9/23: If the feasts are for the Jews, then the harpazo does not necessarily have to fall on a feast day. It may then follow, that the signs of the times have nothing to do with the feasts. They are for the gentiles, where the feasts are for the Jews (as representations). It may then be possible to suggest parallel Tribulation timelines: one where there is a focus on the Jews in some prophecies - Jacob's Trouble; and another where there is a focus on the gentiles (The Tribulation/Great Tribulation) in other prophecies. There is nothing that prevents overlapping from occurring.If this is the case, there has most definitely been a great deal of conflation going on; notwithstanding the possibility that some prophecies/events may affect both Jew and gentile. If one considers this position, then much of what has been discussed lately can be laid to rest, since there would be allowance for different events occurring to different peoples.
- It certainly becomes possible, for instance, for Israel to be intractable when it comes to taking the mark; until forced to do so subsequent to the AoD (invasion of Israel, trampling of the temple et al).
- It may allow for Israel to 'make a deal with the Death' for 3-1/2 years; then realize their mistake at the AoD and repent, fleeing into the wilderness.
- It may allow for an 'equal but different' Tribulation.
- It may allow for the sealing of Jewish virgin men who will demonstrate the holiness of God on earth to a 'pagan' population (what some may hypothesize was Israel's job to begin with)
- It may allow for those who are unsaved but who have loved ones, and know believers who have been pre-trib harpazo'd to become saved during the Trib.
- It may allow for an explanation of timelines which do not seem to match up mathematically (day counts). Including, but not limited to an 'offset' of a select number of days from one timeline when compared to the other (Jacob's Trouble may have already started, though the Tribulation may have yet to start).
- It may allow God to deal with Israel one way (focus shift to 70th week), while dealing with non-Jews another (judgment for rejecting Christ).
I thought this response was brilliant when you first posted it, but I didn't understand how it could be possible at the time. So I tucked this idea in the back of my mind in case something should come to light later. I now, for reasons I have yet had time to defend, believe that things are exactly as you have proposed. I believe Jacob's trouble may have already started. But it didn't start a few years ago... it could have started with the baptism and ministry of Jesus until His sacrifice and offering in the middle of the week. The first 3.5 years were fulfilled in Him. Then the grand parenthesis or grand pause in Daniel's 70 weeks may not have been at the beginning of the 70th week as we have been taught but rather was in the middle when the Messiah was cut off. So basically we have been at the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week for 2000 years. I am not saying we are at the midpoint of the tribulation however. I believe the tribulation has yet to begin... which is like you say that there could be a different timeline for different peoples. I only see a little over 3.5 years mentioned in Revelation, so the "great tribulation" is yet to come (for both Jews and Gentiles, although they look different from one another as the purposes are different) but would fulfill the second half of Daniel's 70th week. Thoughts? As rt says keep asking questions is the best way to proceed.... Daniel 9:26 Then after the 62 weeks, the anointed one will be cut down (but not for himself). Think this makes it VERY CLEAR --- AFTER 62 weeks --- BUT BEFORE 63 week (or for that matter 64,65,66,67,68, 69 weeks) It seems you keep insisting the 70th week (Jacobs trouble) is partially started --- yet you never explain the "sudden jump" from 62 to 70.... From all I read -- the Jewish Leaders knew of Daniels prophecy of WEEKS -- therefore God expecting them to know the TIMING of Jesus first coming..... The clue is in the weeks and when the anointed one is announced --- which was AFTER 62 weeks. |
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Post by witness1 on Feb 8, 2018 16:19:48 GMT -6
Please look back at Daniel 9:25. The seven weeks come first, and then the 62 weeks. So “week 62” is actually “week 69” since the 7 weeks happen first. It seems that you are saying the same thing I am... you say after 62 but before 63. I say after 69 but before 70. These are the same since the 7 are first, as far as I understand anyway.
Also, please know that I’m not insisting this is true. I obviously don’t know. I do want us to all look at this though.
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Post by witness1 on Feb 8, 2018 21:12:20 GMT -6
kjs, I have never heard anyone read those verses the way you do, that only 62 have been fulfilled, so I went looking to see what I could find. This article seems to give a great explanation of the traditional premillennial dispensationalist view. www.google.com/amp/s/www.gotquestions.org/amp/seventy-weeks.htmlWhat I am wondering right now is whether this new finding with Enoch’s calendar being 364 day years would make this clearer. I am headed to bed now but tomorrow will probably look at the year counts from the decree of King Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem according to 364 year days instead of 360 year days. If you still think only 62 weeks have happened, I would like to hear your perspective.
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Post by kjs on Feb 9, 2018 9:25:10 GMT -6
kjs , I have never heard anyone read those verses the way you do, that only 62 have been fulfilled, so I went looking to see what I could find. This article seems to give a great explanation of the traditional premillennial dispensationalist view. www.google.com/amp/s/www.gotquestions.org/amp/seventy-weeks.htmlWhat I am wondering right now is whether this new finding with Enoch’s calendar being 364 day years would make this clearer. I am headed to bed now but tomorrow will probably look at the year counts from the decree of King Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem according to 364 year days instead of 360 year days. If you still think only 62 weeks have happened, I would like to hear your perspective. You are correct and my math skills are off......... After the 62 week quote from the passage did not include the first seven -- which makes it 69 weeks. My point is that the "cut off" happens after that week but before week 70...... |
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Post by Natalie on Feb 9, 2018 9:32:56 GMT -6
I see it the same way...cut off after the 69th week. Then the passage says the city and temple are destroyed and then a covenant of one week is made. So, technically there is two "gaps" because the city and temple weren't destroyed at the same time as Messiah was cut off.
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Post by witness1 on Feb 9, 2018 9:36:51 GMT -6
That is my point too. The “cut off” is in the middle of week 69. I think this “cut off” is the death of Jesus. I will explain my reasoning step by step later today, Lord willing. Also will address the way I understand your other post with the people of the leader. My kids need attention right now 😊
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Post by witness1 on Feb 9, 2018 9:39:45 GMT -6
I see it the same way...cut off after the 69th week. Then the passage says the city and temple are destroyed and then a covenant of one week is made. So, technically there is two "gaps" because the city and temple weren't destroyed at the same time as Messiah was cut off. It is the same time if you see “the temple” as the Messiah himself! Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." - John 2:19 |
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Post by kjs on Feb 9, 2018 10:05:42 GMT -6
That is my point too. The “cut off” is in the middle of week 69. I think this “cut off” is the death of Jesus. I will explain my reasoning step by step later today, Lord willing. Also will address the way I understand your other post with the people of the leader. My kids need attention right now 😊 No, the "Cut Off" happen AFTER week 62 (or as you already pointed out AFTER 69 when the first seven included).... Sir Robert Anderson -- "The Coming Prince" shows the how the timing "played out". Mr. Anderson's contention is that Palm Sunday was the end of the 69 weeks -- my personal opinion is the crucifixion was the end of the 69 weeks. The destruction of City/Temple happened roughly 36 years later (depending on which year the crucifixion is said to take place). So Natalie is correct -- there is at least one gap -- inside this passage of Daniel 9:26 The "Cut Off" portion and "destruction portion" There is also a gap between the destruction and the return of Israel. |
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Post by witness1 on Feb 10, 2018 10:08:24 GMT -6
Regarding this gap between Jesus' death and the destruction of Jerusalem, I am studying this article right now: www.anewdaydawning.com/blog-1/2015/1/13/why-it-is-finished-was-finished-in-70adAn initial glance looks like it is worth looking into, but I have not reached a full understanding of it yet. My initial understanding of what this author is saying is that these 40 years between the baptism of Jesus and the destruction of the temple was an "already, not yet" time in which the transition between the Mosaic covenant and the blood of His covenant took place. Perhaps that the Lord gave time - an entire 40 year generation - to transition to the new covenant. It is interesting that this likens back to the 40 years in the wilderness. He says there are multiple fulfillments of "It is finished". The author cites some heavy theological passages from Hebrews regarding Christ as the High Priest coming out of the Holy of Holies, and it will take some time to fully understand this argument. He also is talking about Luke 21, which on another thread we discussed how this prophecy was about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD: “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. 24They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Biblehub links verse 22 (about the days of vengeance fulfilling all that is written) back to Daniel 9:24. I have not yet figured out which word is linked, but it is a very interesting connection. Perhaps this is why people say all 70 weeks have been fulfilled- that the destruction of Jerusalem 40 years after Christ's baptism fulfilled the purpose of the 70 weeks in Daniel 9:24. I disagree (for now... I may change my mind!) that all 70 weeks are finished. As was discussed on the other thread, there is still a time of trouble ahead. The other thread suggested there was still a 7 year period of trouble ahead, but I only see a little over 3.5 years in Revelation. Right now my hypothesis, which still needs more testing, is that 69.5 weeks have been finished and there is a 3.5 year period ahead. It is hard to argue though with the words of Jesus in Luke 21 that the destruction in AD70 would fulfill all that is written. I do think we need to understand this gap between Jesus and the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. If anyone wants to study this with me, I would love to discuss it! |
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You all have been very gracious... thank you!
Not entirely convinced, but worth looking at.
