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Post by witness1 on Dec 5, 2017 13:11:36 GMT -6
Hey guys. I would love to learn from those of you who know more than I do, and I would like to start a discussion regarding which of our assumptions was wrong, since the time has passed for all assumptions to fit. Here are the assumptions I have seen:
1) The tribulation lasts 7 years
2) The tribulation will end on a fall feast day
3) The tribulation will start in 2017 due to various important dates regarding Israel as well as the Jewish calendar of feast days and leap years.
4) There is a pre-trib rapture
So here's my question... of these 4 things, which one is incorrect? The great sign seems to confirm a pre-trib rapture, although we don't know for sure what else it meant. It seems to make sense that the second coming will be on a feast day. That leaves me to conclude that the tribulation is not actually 7 years, but I know that is a widely held interpretation of the 70th week. I have seen a few suggestions that the entire tribulation is only 1335 days and that the 1260/1290 overlap within that time frame. Is this a reasonable conclusion? Or, for those of you who know a lot about this, is it more reasonable to conclude that the tribulation begins in 2018? Thank you for your thoughts!!
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Post by Natalie on Dec 5, 2017 13:30:34 GMT -6
Have you seen this from Daniel Matson: watchfortheday.org/hanukkah2017.htmlI haven't really studied it out, but from what he has written, it makes sense. I just still think that 2017 is important...the eclipse, the Great Sign, the dates in Israel's history. |
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Post by yardstick on Dec 5, 2017 15:37:45 GMT -6
You need a 5th option, imho:
5. There is an assumption not listed here
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Post by yardstick on Dec 5, 2017 15:41:12 GMT -6
Have you seen this from Daniel Matson: watchfortheday.org/hanukkah2017.htmlI haven't really studied it out, but from what he has written, it makes sense. I just still think that 2017 is important...the eclipse, the Great Sign, the dates in Israel's history. Agree, with the following assumption: The Jews LOVE their temple. It is a source of pride for them. Also, I have yet to have what I would consider a satisfactory explanation of how the Jews' belief in a resurrection is tied to their love for the temple, enough to make them jealous should the harpazo occur during Hanukkah. I can see how a flawed understanding of the relationship between the temple and the resurrection could have occurred; however, since they do have something in common: the second coming. |
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Post by witness1 on Dec 5, 2017 15:44:46 GMT -6
Interesting proposition! Would love to hear more! Are you suggesting that we have a 5th assumption that God doesn't have an alternative way to accomplish the first 4 assumptions even though He could have some sort of trump card?
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Post by yardstick on Dec 5, 2017 16:14:26 GMT -6
Interesting proposition! Would love to hear more! Are you suggesting that we have a 5th assumption that God doesn't have an alternative way to accomplish the first 4 assumptions even though He could have some sort of trump card? Allow me to make a suggestion by way of explanation, which is related to a hypothesis I made after 9/23: If the feasts are for the Jews, then the harpazo does not necessarily have to fall on a feast day. It may then follow, that the signs of the times have nothing to do with the feasts. They are for the gentiles, where the feasts are for the Jews (as representations). It may then be possible to suggest parallel Tribulation timelines: one where there is a focus on the Jews in some prophecies - Jacob's Trouble; and another where there is a focus on the gentiles (The Tribulation/Great Tribulation) in other prophecies. There is nothing that prevents overlapping from occurring. If this is the case, there has most definitely been a great deal of conflation going on; notwithstanding the possibility that some prophecies/events may affect both Jew and gentile. If one considers this position, then much of what has been discussed lately can be laid to rest, since there would be allowance for different events occurring to different peoples. - It certainly becomes possible, for instance, for Israel to be intractable when it comes to taking the mark; until forced to do so subsequent to the AoD (invasion of Israel, trampling of the temple et al).
- It may allow for Israel to 'make a deal with the Death' for 3-1/2 years; then realize their mistake at the AoD and repent, fleeing into the wilderness.
- It may allow for an 'equal but different' Tribulation.
- It may allow for the sealing of Jewish virgin men who will demonstrate the holiness of God on earth to a 'pagan' population (what some may hypothesize was Israel's job to begin with)
- It may allow for those who are unsaved but who have loved ones, and know believers who have been pre-trib harpazo'd to become saved during the Trib.
- It may allow for an explanation of timelines which do not seem to match up mathematically (day counts). Including, but not limited to an 'offset' of a select number of days from one timeline when compared to the other (Jacob's Trouble may have already started, though the Tribulation may have yet to start).
- It may allow God to deal with Israel one way (focus shift to 70th week), while dealing with non-Jews another (judgment for rejecting Christ).
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Post by Natalie on Dec 5, 2017 16:18:52 GMT -6
Have you seen this from Daniel Matson: watchfortheday.org/hanukkah2017.htmlI haven't really studied it out, but from what he has written, it makes sense. I just still think that 2017 is important...the eclipse, the Great Sign, the dates in Israel's history. Agree, with the following assumption: The Jews LOVE their temple. It is a source of pride for them. Also, I have yet to have what I would consider a satisfactory explanation of how the Jews' belief in a resurrection is tied to their love for the temple, enough to make them jealous should the harpazo occur during Hanukkah. I can see how a flawed understanding of the relationship between the temple and the resurrection could have occurred; however, since they do have something in common: the second coming. The assumption here being that it is the rapture that provokes them to jealousy and not simply our relationship with the God of Israel. right? |
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Post by yardstick on Dec 5, 2017 16:19:56 GMT -6
Agree, with the following assumption: The Jews LOVE their temple. It is a source of pride for them. Also, I have yet to have what I would consider a satisfactory explanation of how the Jews' belief in a resurrection is tied to their love for the temple, enough to make them jealous should the harpazo occur during Hanukkah. I can see how a flawed understanding of the relationship between the temple and the resurrection could have occurred; however, since they do have something in common: the second coming. The assumption here being that it is the rapture that provokes them to jealousy and not simply our relationship with the God of Israel. right? Yes. It also may provoke them to a realization (at the AoD) of how a relationship with God is supposed to work? |
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Post by davidjayjordan on Dec 6, 2017 1:04:46 GMT -6
Hey guys. I would love to learn from those of you who know more than I do, and I would like to start a discussion regarding which of our assumptions was wrong, since the time has passed for all assumptions to fit. Here are the assumptions I have seen: 1) The tribulation lasts 7 years 2) The tribulation will end on a fall feast day 3) The tribulation will start in 2017 due to various important dates regarding Israel as well as the Jewish calendar of feast days and leap years. 4) There is a pre-trib rapture So here's my question... of these 4 things, which one is incorrect? The great sign seems to confirm a pre-trib rapture, although we don't know for sure what else it meant. It seems to make sense that the second coming will be on a feast day. That leaves me to conclude that the tribulation is not actually 7 years, but I know that is a widely held interpretation of the 70th week. I have seen a few suggestions that the entire tribulation is only 1335 days and that the 1260/1290 overlap within that time frame. Is this a reasonable conclusion? Or, for those of you who know a lot about this, is it more reasonable to conclude that the tribulation begins in 2018? Thank you for your thoughts!! 1. 1...Is correct, but realize that the Tribulation period is 7 years, the Great Tribulation period is 3.5 years 2. The Wrath of God of 45 days, ends on a feast Day, Rosh Hanah. The tribs finnish on the early feast day.. August 10th, 45 days previous The Battle ends 10 days later on Yom Kippur or the Day of Atonement... 3. NO the Covenant gets signed in 2018, it was not signed this year, nor will it ATS... 4. No there is no pre trib rapture, we all have to buck up and face the Tribulkation Period as men and women of the Lord as He has stated. NO rapture til we do our work and serve the Lord.. ACS... (According to Scriptures) and because I am not allowed to say IMO, I wont and will make it more direct and exact IHS (IN HIs Service) David |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2017 1:29:57 GMT -6
Hey guys. I would love to learn from those of you who know more than I do, and I would like to start a discussion regarding which of our assumptions was wrong, since the time has passed for all assumptions to fit. Here are the assumptions I have seen: 1) The tribulation lasts 7 years 2) The tribulation will end on a fall feast day 3) The tribulation will start in 2017 due to various important dates regarding Israel as well as the Jewish calendar of feast days and leap years. 4) There is a pre-trib rapture So here's my question... of these 4 things, which one is incorrect? The great sign seems to confirm a pre-trib rapture, although we don't know for sure what else it meant. It seems to make sense that the second coming will be on a feast day. That leaves me to conclude that the tribulation is not actually 7 years, but I know that is a widely held interpretation of the 70th week. I have seen a few suggestions that the entire tribulation is only 1335 days and that the 1260/1290 overlap within that time frame. Is this a reasonable conclusion? Or, for those of you who know a lot about this, is it more reasonable to conclude that the tribulation begins in 2018? Thank you for your thoughts!! 1. 1...Is correct, but realize that the Tribulation period is 7 years, the Great Tribulation period is 3.5 years 2. The Wrath of God of 45 days, ends on a feast Day, Rosh Hanah. The tribs finnish on the early feast day.. August 10th, 45 days previous The Battle ends 10 days later on Yom Kippur or the Day of Atonement... 3. NO the Covenant gets signed in 2018, it was not signed this year, nor will it ATS... 4. No there is no pre trib rapture, we all have to buck up and face the Tribulkation Period as men and women of the Lord as He has stated. NO rapture til we do our work and serve the Lord.. ACS... (According to Scriptures) and because I am not allowed to say IMO, I wont and will make it more direct and exact IHS (IN HIs Service) David Hm....you are not allowed to express your opinion? Then it would be at least very helpful to support your bold statements with scriptures, ao that we all can learn something. Being dogmatic without any scriptural support is only good for scaring searching readers away. |
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Post by davidjayjordan on Dec 6, 2017 1:48:45 GMT -6
I have as seen many many places and yet people and readers havent read, but still come up with that excuse. SEE www.davidjayjordan.com/ProphecyTimeLines.htmlThereIN I go over revelation, each book of Daniel, verse by verse, and composed all those intergrated timelines with corresponding verses. if you have a question just ask... but do read first.... The brother wanted answers, so I gave him answers ..as we are to ask him that asketh us.. Go to Timeline 2018 for my timeline composit. and uneven judgments timelines as there are maybe four more there, and then to all the rest maybe twenty on my Prophecy timelines site. If you have one timeline do post it and post your verses so we can see if you have any proofs according to any scriptures. If you know any timeframes that also would be good to see. Remember comparison of timelines dictates that you should present your evidence as well in good faith. Thanks. Heres one page of about a thousand I have put on line detailing the verses that apply LEGEND David Jay Jordan Abom. of Desolations Mathew 24;15 A.C. (Anti-Christ) 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Rev 13 Battle of Armageddon Revelation 16:16, Ezekiel 38 Covenant Signed Daniel 9:27 Dan 11: 22-32 Flee into Wilderness Mathew 24:16, Rev 12:6 Great Tribulation Math 24: 29-31 Rapture (2nd Coming) Revelation 10:7, Math 24: 29-31 Sacrifice starts DANIEL 8 13:14 2 Witnesses Rev 11 3rd Jewish Temple 2 Thess 2 7 Trumpets Revelation 8, 9 7 Vials Revelation 16, 19 Wrath Oh yes, if constructing your own timeline in your own opinion, do add one more exact time frame to your line... 1335 days. I forgot that one above... but its on the timeline... And your start and end periods should also match the Lords lunar schedule and observed HOLY_DAYS... passover, Rosh Hannah, Day of Atonement etc... ATB IJN David Read more: unsealed.boards.net/thread/1234/timeline-2018-2025?page=1#ixzz50SwHX8rPAttachments:
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Post by rt on Dec 8, 2017 7:39:18 GMT -6
Hey guys. I would love to learn from those of you who know more than I do, and I would like to start a discussion regarding which of our assumptions was wrong, since the time has passed for all assumptions to fit. Here are the assumptions I have seen: 1) The tribulation lasts 7 years 2) The tribulation will end on a fall feast day 3) The tribulation will start in 2017 due to various important dates regarding Israel as well as the Jewish calendar of feast days and leap years. 4) There is a pre-trib rapture So here's my question... of these 4 things, which one is incorrect? The great sign seems to confirm a pre-trib rapture, although we don't know for sure what else it meant. It seems to make sense that the second coming will be on a feast day. That leaves me to conclude that the tribulation is not actually 7 years, but I know that is a widely held interpretation of the 70th week. I have seen a few suggestions that the entire tribulation is only 1335 days and that the 1260/1290 overlap within that time frame. Is this a reasonable conclusion? Or, for those of you who know a lot about this, is it more reasonable to conclude that the tribulation begins in 2018? Thank you for your thoughts!! Your analysis following your 4 assumption points is also an assumption which may or may not be true  . But seriously, you have requested a tall order IMO, asking which one is incorrect? I would say #1 and #4 are more than assumptions, they are events that are described in scripture that can be shown to be true through scriptural interpretation. That interpretive method may involve making some assumptions however. #2 is really pure speculation, there is no way to prove that is the case though it could be true. #3 is also pure speculation based on what we might believe are signs and dates that could pan out to be true. I have posted why I believe that the pre trib rapture is true according to scripture here, in case you haven't seen it. unsealed.boards.net/thread/133/revised-view-pretrib-raptureTo refute all the "assumptions" above would take rather a lot of time, if one were to actually go about trying to prove that they were incorrect. Eventually though, time will tell whether any of our speculations and assumptions were correct, hindsight is 20/20 so they say. That is the only sure way to know. |
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Post by boraddict on Dec 8, 2017 8:15:30 GMT -6
Okay, how about some foundational premise like: There is seven years of tribulation like events. I suppose a pole might be the way to go on this one. If we all agree then we might look at the rapture being within the seven years or outside the seven years. Then the third question might be what evidence exists that it is pre, mid, or post. Just a thought.
Like you said. We will not know for sure until after the event has taken place.
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Post by witness1 on Dec 8, 2017 16:09:34 GMT -6
Thank you rt for your response. You are right that I asked a big question, and it was perhaps a foolish question since I know we won't understand completely on this side of heaven. And I probably didn't word it as well as I could have. But you did answer my question as to whether you think scripture is more clear of it being 7 years than it is clear about ending on a feast day. This may be silly, but I want to keep seeking this out: throwing out old assumptions in order to make room for new ideas. There is so much to study and so little time and I wasn't sure which direction to go. And sometimes I think I should just pray Psalm 131 and "not occupy myself with things too great and too marvelous for me," but I can't go back to sleep! I have been attempting to reconcile things by the supposition that the day counts overlap somehow and it isn't a full 7 years, but it sounds like you're saying that scripture is most clear about it being 7 full years, and I am coming to that conclusion as well. I do have some ideas which I hope to flesh out and share soon. Thank you for your kind response to a poorly worded and somewhat foolish question  |
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Post by witness1 on Dec 8, 2017 16:19:32 GMT -6
I want to thank you all for your kindness. I feel childish jumping in here... like when my daughter interjects "I have an idea!" when her father and I are discussing complicated travel plans or financial matters.  You all have been very gracious... thank you! |
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You all have been very gracious... thank you!