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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2017 9:31:09 GMT -6
Bible Threats - Matthew 25 - Sheep and Goats - Part 1
Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting[age-during] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting[age-during] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal[age-during].
This passage is often sited as the proof text of endless torment. But actually, it is very easy to demonstrate that it can’t possibly be talking about endless torment as taught by Christianity. Before we start, let’s notice that verses 41 and 46 have the words Everlasting, or Eternal in them. But all of these instances are the word Aionios. (of an age / or age lasting) as seen here in YTL:
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
Lets apply our Endless Torment challenge:
1. [HOW] How is the outcome determined (faith, love, works, luck, preselection)
2. [WHEN] When does it happen?
3. [WHERE] What is the destination of the punished / rewarded?
4. [WHAT] What is the situation of the punished / rewarded?
5. [HOW LONG] What is the duration of punishment / reward?
Matthew 25: Goats
1. How - Based on the way the goats didn’t care for people in need. Contradicts ET.
2. When - NA. But perhaps during life is a safe assumption. Supports ET.
3. Where - Doesn’t say Hell, but sounds similar enough - Fire / Punishment. Supports ET.
4. What - Fire / Punishment. Supports ET.
5. How Long - During the Age. Contradicts ET.
So we have a score of 3 out of 5. This is not enough to prove ET. As a matter of fact, the how long specifically says it is not endless since the word Aionius is used.
But, let’s just say, that you are not buying my understanding of Aionius. I mean, I have not proven it to you yet, right? (I promise, I'll get to that.)
Let’s just look at point 1 - What caused the goats to be on one side and the sheep on the other? Their deeds. They either, did not notice, or did not care about the needy. This is not a faith based judgement. If we claim that this passage is talking about what happens to sinners when they die, and if we ignore the meaning of aionius, then we are saying that “if we don’t take care of the needy we will suffer Endless torment.”
Some might say, “Well, Jesus is speaking figuratively - they aren’t really sheep and goats - so their deeds are just indications of their lack of faith.” To say this, we would need to do something that I find is done over and over again in order to justify ET = The death and destruction are to be taken literally - but the rest of the story is not. This is the same thing that is done with the word All. Christians claim it only means All when dealing with the death and not with the life. We need to stop that mindset within ourselves if we want to see the light.
To say this is about faith requires twisting the passage to fit a particular theology. Jesus could have just as easily said they didn’t believe. But He didn't. He made a big deal about the reason. He repeated it twice and it was quite a list. He was clearly talking about the way these people were acting toward others. The reason they did not show love is not provided. But as far as the actual words of this passage are concerned:
These are people of the flock (more on this in the next part)
They called the King, “Lord”
They were separated based on deeds
Their outcome was for an age
In the end, this does not matter anyway - because point 5 clearly uses Aionius and this word defines the timeframe as an age - not endlessly. This scripture cannot be used to demonstrate Annihilation either, there is no death taking place here.
One more point - in case people think that only believers are capable of doing the actions Jesus is speaking about. There are many charities, that are not Christ based, that do these very actions today. It does not take Christians to feed the poor and / or provide water to the thirsty - other religions and non-religions do this as well. No, this passage is not dealing with our belief in Christ. It is dealing with a something else. I will save that for an upcoming post.
So for multiple reasons - this scripture cannot be used to teach ET. Will we have the integrity to stop using it in that context? And you should be very happy that this is not talking about ET - when was the last time you did any of these things: fed the hungry, watered the thirsty, took in a stranger, clothed the naked, cared for the sick (not a relative), visited a prisoner ? Will that be enough?
So - two reasons to say “Wait a minute!”
1. What about the fact that vs 41 claims there is a place of fire prepared for the devil and his messengers? Doesn’t that prove such a place exists?
2. What about the last verse - if you say that aionius punishment is not endless, then the life provided is also not endless!
Ah - yes. We will need to deal with these two issues. Also, we are not satisfied with simply saying this passage does not teach ET. We would like to know, then what is it teaching?
I’l save those answers for Parts 2 and 3.
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karen
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Post by karen on Dec 2, 2017 11:34:22 GMT -6
I too am reading along prayerfully.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2017 12:56:12 GMT -6
I thought I'd post just a quick explanation of where my mind is at. The topics I'm bringing up may seem a little random and I imagine that at some point I should probably regroup all these things and put them in some kind of organized structure. In the meantime, I'm trying not to bore you all by staying in one very specific area and beating it to death. By moving in a variety of different directions, I feel it not only keep things a little more interesting, but it also shows you the breadth of restoration within scripture and that it's not all based on one small element.
Also some of the things I'm covering are being requested, either publicly or privately, and I do want to be responsive in answering questions because in my mind the whole point of these writings is for me to serve you, my friends and readers.
Another factor in my randomness is the that I am trying to be guided by the Holy Spirit with each topic.
There are some major topics left to cover and some of them are difficult, and so I've been holding off in covering some of those areas but we're getting to the point now where I'm going to have to start moving in those directions. Thanks for coming along on this journey. I hope that helps to explain the apparent randomness of the order in which I'm doing things.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2017 14:57:19 GMT -6
Bible Threats - Matthew 25 - Sheep and Goats - Part 2 - Augustine. Oh Augustine!
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Although I plan on providing a post on the early church fathers and their positions on Universal Reconciliation, I wanted to cover Augustine separately here, because we are on the passage that could be said to have caused the greatest confusion to the church over the last 18 centuries.
Just as grace vs works should not be confusing. Neither should the final disposition of the saints and sinners. Both of these concepts can be clearly taught via the version of Restoration that I am sharing. To be clear, there are many that have taught Universal Reconciliation - some teach this from a genuinely Christian perspective, others teach some satanic construct of all paths leading to God. But the particulars of the Restoration that I am teaching are possibly unique. I don’t know for sure, because I have not spend enormous time studying other people’s works. I say this now so that you don’t find some other source for information and using that information, dismiss what you think I am saying. Hopefully, based on what you have seen thus far, you can see that I have built what I am sharing on a strong scriptural foundation.
Of the six primary schools of Christian teaching in the early church, five of them taught some form of Universal Reconciliation. In the early 5th century, Augustine was a giant in the latin realm, but never really excelled at Greek. It is his work in The City of God, that began to popularize the idea of Endless Torment. The most powerful argument laid out by Augustine comes from Matthew 25:46. His logic is not bad - Here he lays it out for us:
So this will get a little complicated, but only because, over time, words change their meanings. When we hear a word today, we assume it means what it always meant. Augustine was reading this passage in latin and so his argument is based on the latin word that was used in the translation from Greek. The latin word in question was, aeturnus. This is where we get our English word “eternal.” So for us - the answer is obvious. It means with out ending. However, when Augustine was alive, this latin word could mean either a long time, but one that ended, or an endless amount of time. This is demonstrated by the fact that Augustine was debating which meaning to attach to Matthew 25:46. If there was only one meaning, he would not have made the argument above.
So to complicate matters - this latin word aeturnus is equivalent to the Greek word aionios for one meaning, but it is not for the other meaning. In cases were we are indicating a long time or an age, it is a good translation. But for cases where we interpret it as endless, it is not.
But ignoring that for now, let’s look at Augustine’s argument.
The basic logic is one from a position of integrity - this is good and what I have been requesting of us as we study this topic of Restoration. If the life of the righteous is endless and the same timeframe is used to describe the punishment of the wicked - then we MUST conclude that both periods of time are equally extreme. Therefore, since the life of the righteous is Endless - so is the punishment of the wicked.
I have no problem with that logic and I commend Augustine for being consistent in his application of the meaning of the word. However, he simply came to the wrong conclusion. The "IF" part of the argument was not true, as he assumed.
1. If the life of the righteous (in matt. 25:46) is endless
2. then, the punishment of the wicked (in matt. 25:46) is endless.
3. Therefore: the punishment of the wicked is endless.
Point 3 is only true if point 1 is true. But, point 1 is not true in this passage. Just because we know that the saints will have endless life does not mean that every passage talking about life is talking about our endless life. This is a major assumption we make that is incorrect more often then correct. Augustine made the same assumption.
But in the case of Matt. 25:46 - Jesus is not talking about endless life - he is talking about life during the age. That is why he said “Life during the age” - instead of “endless”, or “immortal” life. Also, as we have shown in the previous post on this passage, this is not a faith based judgment and so we are not handing out eternal life here - we are handing out life during the age.
So, I agree with Augustine - both durations must be the same. But neither is talking about forever. Both are talking about what will happen to these two groups of people during the Age. What age? We’ll cover that in part 3 of this series.
Augustine published his decision that this must mean the wicked are punished forever and this became a significant work in the church thereafter - forever tainting our view of God. Through the simple mistake of a church father, future translations of this and many other passages corrupted our view of who God really is. Now, for those who are concerned about God protecting His word, please see my previous post on this. Just because a message is hidden in God’s word, does not mean that that was not God’s intention. God is still in control.
Now is the moment when God is saying to His people - “Do you know me? Then see me - dig deeper and realize that I truly am the God that can and will save all creation. If you would rather see me as something else, that is your prerogative - so did the jews of the 1st century - but the testament moving forward is not the message you are teaching."
Do you know Him?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2017 10:02:55 GMT -6
Hell - Part 1
This post will begin a series on Hell. I realize that we have left out part 3 and 4 of Matthew 25 - The Sheep and The Goats. But before I can cover those portions I need to go back to laying some groundwork. We’ll come back to this passage afterward.
Hell comes from the Anglo-Saxon helan: to cover, or hide. Hell, heel, hill, hole, whole, hall, hull, halt and hold are all from the same root. The word was first applied to the grave by our German and English ancestors, and as superstition came to regard the grave as an entrance to a world of torment, Hell became the word used to denote an imaginary realm of fiery woe. A grave is also something that is covered over and therefore the use of the word hell to represent the grave is fitting. As we will see, the use of the word hell to represent eternal torment - is not.
In Hebrew we have the word Sheol. In Greek we have three words: Tartarus, Hades, and Gehenna. These are the only 4 words that are translated as hell in the KJV.
Sheol
This word is used 65 times in the old testament Hebrew. It's most basic meaning is "the place or state of the dead." Although the King James translates this word hell, 32 times, it uses grave and pit the rest of the 65 times. As we mentioned the more modern translations never use hell for this word. In the septuagint it is replaced by the word Hades which is - "the place of the dead."
Note: The septuagint is a version of the Old Testament completed in 132 BC. This version was written in Greek, by Hebrew people who spoke both Hebrew and Greek. Around 70 translators were involved and they named the work after the group, The seventy. The value in the septuagint is that it provides a good reference for what people in that time period (who understood the Hebrew mindset and spoke both languages) thought the closest matching words between the two languages were. It should be noted that the New Testament quotes the septuagint as scripture.
Effectively Sheol is the place we go when we die - both righteous and wicked. Our body to the grave - our soul asleep(dead) in Sheol. The old testament has some of our favorite characters going to Sheol. The character and beliefs of those who went there or plan on going there does not affect their situation, for all went into the same state. This word should never be translated hell and the modern translations correct that error. However, if we did want to say that Sheol can mean a place of endless torment, then what shall we do with those who went there - Jacob, David, Jonah, etc - are they to be in eternal torment? Even Jesus Christ himself descended to Sheol.
So we have only two options -
1. Sheol is not the place of endless torment, or
2. Sheol is the place of endless torment, but there is a WAY OUT of it and therefore it is not the place of ENDLESS torment.
Of course the second option is a paradox and this leaves us with the first option which clearly fits the usages of scripture in all cases of the word.
The passages on this are so clear that I don't really feel a need to illustrate it. You will find many of the men of God asking to go to Sheol (Job), or coming up from Sheol (David), or being in Sheol(Jonah), or preaching to the prisoners in Sheol/Hades (Jesus). It is a temporary calamity in some cases and death in others, it is never used in scripture as a place of endless torment. There are a few places where the wicked go to Sheol, but then as I have illustrated, so do the righteous. The wicked however, are more prone to untimely deaths and destruction as their way of life is a "state of death."
Prov. 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell[Sheol].
From this one might say that the lives of the wicked are a "living hell." It simply means they walk in death and not in the life of God.
Hades
Hades is very similar to Sheol with a small exception: the Greek mythology added a lot of detail to the somewhat vague Sheol. Most of us are familiar with the river Styx and the place of Hades as the place where the dead go in Greek mythology. So a lot of what happens and what it looks like were filled in by the Greeks, but none of that is scriptural. In the end, Hades is just a name that replaces Sheol. It means temporary calamity, death, the grave, the place of the dead, etc. It is often used in conjunction with death:
1 Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave[Hades], where is thy victory?
Wouldn't it have been completely different if the word hell was used here? Oh Hell where is thy victory? Then we would all know that hell does not achieve victory, but loses!
Of course the translators had to put grave here, it violated their theology to say that hell would not have victory. However, their translation in this case is correct. They should have followed this translation in other places where they use the word hell for Hades.
Hades is used 11 times in the New Testament. 10 times it is translated Hell, 1 time it is translated Grave as seen above. This alone should make you go, Hmmm. Why this one time grave? For the reason I supplied. To match the translators theology. Sad, isn’t it?
Instead, the other 10 times should also have been grave - but I can accept that the Greeks wanted a name to match the name of Sheol and the only teaching available would be Hades. Or, we could keep calling it what the Hebrews called it - Sheol.
In all cases in the new testament the word Hades means grave, death, or place of the dead. However, there is one place that seems to be an exception at first glance. That is the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus that we recently covered. Here, the rich man is said to be in Hades and there is torment associated with his situation. We have already demonstrated that this parable can’t be used to demonstrate Endless Torment, so I will not repeat that content here.
Tartaros
Tartaros is only used once and is referred to as the prison where the rebellious angels are being held.
2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not angels when they sinned, but cast them down to hell[Tartaros], and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Peter uses a term that is from Greek mythology that represents the dungeons of Hades. It cannot be established whether Peter actually agreed with the Greek system of death and afterlife, but I think we can safely assume he knew better. He is borrowing a term that conveys a meaning to the reader. Peter’s use of the word is tartarosas, which changes the word into a verb. This has the same effect as saying that putting a person in jail can be called jailing a person. So here, Peter says that the angels have been tartaros'ed.
I don't think Hercules really existed as portrayed by Greek mythology, but I could say that climbing mount Everest carrying a Volkswagen Beetle is a Herculean accomplishment. This does not mean I agree with or believe the Greek mythology.
In any case, it is the angels who are held at Tartaros - there is no mention of any human ever going or being held there. The verses says nothing about torment. Also, another important thing to note: the angels are being held UNTIL the judgment. This expressly indicates that they will not be in Tartaros unendingly. Jud 1:6 confirms this.
Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
The chains that hold them are permanent and unending, the captivity is not.
Being this is the only use of this word and being that it does not refer to any human punishment and being that even those that are held (the angels) are not being tormented but are simply being held, and being that eventually these angels will be released in order to "stand trial" at the judgement, we find that 2 Peter 2:4 cannot be used to sustain any belief in an endless punishment for unsaved people.
It should be noted, that in this study of hell, we have already eliminated 44 of the 56 utterances of hell from the KJV. Each of the references eliminated have not even an iota of reference to an ENDLESS place of torment. Many of those references use Sheol/Hades as a place to escape from the torments of this life. And there is clear evidence that the righteous are also present in Sheol.
Next we will cover Gehenna.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2017 13:21:38 GMT -6
Hell - Part 2 - Gehenna
We now turn to Gehenna and the final 12 uses of the word Hell in the KJV and other versions.
Gehenna
Gehenna does not speak of the place of the endless torments of the damned. Instead, it refers to an actual place on earth, namely, the valley (or ravine) of Hinnom (Neh.11:30) in the land of Israel. The ravine of Hinnom is a valley to the southwest of Jerusalem (the ravine of the son of Hinnom; Joshua 15:8).
At one time, Moloch, a god worshiped by the Ammonites, came to be worshiped by Israel as well.
1Ki 11:7 Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.
2Ki 23:10 And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech.
Amo 5:26 But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.
Act 7:43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.
In Jeremiah‘s day, the ravine of Hinnom was associated with the worship of Moloch.
Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
Moloch worship involved human sacrifice, namely, the sacrifice of children by fire. Children were sacrificed by fire on altars erected within the valley of Hinnom. In later times, this valley was used for burning the corpses of criminals and animals, and indeed garbage of any sort. Fires were kept lit perpetually. Maggots and worms were constantly in the area. When speaking, the common people used it as a comparison to the worst way one could die or be disposed of after death.
Being cast into Gehenna effectively meant that you did not die well and were likely rejected by all that knew you in life. Your physical destiny was to rot in the garbage heap.
Today, we say, “Live a good life or you might end up face down in the gutter.”
As a side note: Is it not extremely ironic, that the word Gehenna is used by Christians today to represent a place where God tortures man with fire, when, the very place that actually is Gehenna and the actions done there, are an abomination to God and something that never entered His mind? And dare I press the point? That the pagan nations worshipped a god (molech) that could only be appeased by burning humans, and that the Israelites themselves got caught up in such a practice, and that….Christianity today, believes in a similar god? One that is appeased, if even reluctantly, by the burning torment or fiery destruction of humanity?
People - it is time to change our view of God!
There are 12 instances of the use of Gehenna (translated as hell) in the New Testament. The first is from the brother of Jesus, the chief Christian leader in Jerusalem:
Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
There is nothing in this verse that can be thought to teach of Endless Torment. The course, and result of our life is set by our tongue. It is what comes out of a man that defiles him. James also speaks of the tongue as a rudder - that which steers the course of our life. We use a similar term today when referring to those that can’t control their mouth and their actions - they are hell raisers.
This leaves us with 11 uses of Hell in the KJV. All the rest are spoken of by Jesus.
Let’s take a look at them now:
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy[apollumi] both soul and body in hell.
Luk 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
These are parallel passages and we have already offered an explanation for Matt 10:28. It should be noted, that even if one does not agree with my explanation of these Matt 10:28 - these verses clearly do not support a concept of Endless Torment. There is no mention of what would put a person in this “hell”, there is no timeframe given, no duration given, and no torment mentioned. One could argue that the soul is destroyed, but as we have demonstrated, this destruction does not, by definition, require a permanent state. Because of this:
Luk 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost[apollumi].
Therefore, these verses cannot be used to teach ET. Will we have the integrity to stop using them in that context?
This leave us with 9 uses of the word Hell in scripture.
Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
The people taught that murder was the crime, but Jesus taught that He was looking for hearts after God, not just deeds after the Law. God wants to bring us into agreement with Him so that we love our brother, not burn him, not even with our words. I’m pretty sure we don’t want to make this about ET or Annihilation - if we do, we are saying that calling someone a fool sends us to Endless Torment. Beyond that, this verse does not talk about duration or timeframes.
Therefore, these verses cannot be used to teach ET. Will we have the integrity to stop using them in that context?
This leave us with 8 uses of the word Hell in scripture.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
There is no mention of torment, there is no mention of duration, there is no mention off faith. This is a condemnation of the Jewish leadership and by extension - the nation of Judah - and it is clearly a judgment that is going to take place in this physical realm during the lifetime of “that generation.” Verse 36. This is a warning of the coming destruction upon Judah. Odds area decent that the bodies of many of these Jewish leaders were thrown into the dump outside Jerusalem (Gehenna).
Therefore, these verses cannot be used to teach ET. Will we have the integrity to stop using them in that context?
This leave us with 7 uses of the word Hell in scripture.
Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
There is no mention of torment, there is no mention of duration, there is no mention of faith. This is another attack on the hypocrisy of the pharisees. It does not even say they will go to Hell, just that they are a child of hell.
Therefore, these verses cannot be used to teach ET. Will we have the integrity to stop using them in that context?
This leave us with 6 uses of the word Hell in scripture. These are the passages where Jesus is saying, if a part of your body is driving you to sin, it is better to hack that part of your body out now then be thrown into Gehenna. But I want to be fair here - not all the passages of the three listed are simple. Some don’t use the word Hell, but they do say, “Everlasting fire”. Then in the next verse, they say Hell. So I want to deal with these scriptures in a way that covers that concept, not just the use of Hell itself.
The basic combination of concepts can be encompassed with these verses :
Mar 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
First, I want to establish the basic of whether any of these verses describe ET. The same logic we have applied to other threats so far applies here. This is not faith based, and the only mention of duration is Aionius - age lasting. There is fire mentioned, but not necessarily torment, but we can assume fire hurts. So now we have evidence that the fire will last an age. But, none of these verses say that the thing being burned (the body) continues for the age. As a matter of fact, the opposite seems to be implied. Because these verses do not mention the soul or the spirit. They say, the body cast into Gehenna. Once again, this is not an endless situation, and moreover it is a physical consequence - not a spiritual one.
Compare this with what Jesus is referring to. Notice the similarity:
Isa 66:23-24 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Bodies - Carcasses, worms - worms, fire - fire.
The Lord explicitly identifies Gehenna with Isaiah 66 by speaking of it as the place of unextinguished fire, where their worm is not ceasing and the fire is not going out. It is clear from Isaiah 66 that this punishment is an earthly one because of the activity of the given description. This is the description a physical dump.
And, of course, we know and teach that all those in this dump shall eventually be raised for the judgment and will, at that time, come out of the Gehenna.
Therefore, these verses cannot be used to teach ET. Will we have the integrity to stop using them in that context?
Now - I have covered every instant of the word Hell in scripture. And there was not a single verse that can be used to demonstrate Endless Torment.
The question is - Will we have the integrity to stop saying that people go to Hell when they die as a sinner and spend the rest of eternity being tormented by fire by a God that claims to love them?
You might be getting sick of the question I keep asking - Do we have the integrity. But I ask to press the point. We MUST conclude - if Endless Torment is taught in the bible - it does not happen in a place called Hell. Do you see the significance of this? Every time you have been told that sinners go to hell and are endlessly tormented. Every time you have told others - You did so, not because it was in your bible, but because you were quoting what someone else told you.
It’s time to stop doing that - let’s believe who God claims He is - not who Man claims God is.
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Post by cwood85 on Dec 3, 2017 15:17:20 GMT -6
Skipped ahead to your most recent post on this thread. Kinda bouncing around between the post and referenced scriptures. Mind officially blown. I always always always thought how can there be a burning lake of fire, but no mention of how and when this happens for eternity? Thinking about all of it and letting it sink in, praying about it for guidance and understanding.
Remember those commercials on TV showing a picture of a fried egg 🍳 and it stating "this is your brain on drugs." or something like that. Well this is my brain on @silentknight threads 💥. I mean that with much appreciation and inspiration 💕 Thank you for taking the time to put these together.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2017 15:28:24 GMT -6
Hell, by any other name would burn as hot
'Tis but thy name that is my enemy;
Thou art thyself, though not a Montague.
What's Montague? It is nor hand, nor foot,
Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part
Belonging to a man. O, be some other name!
What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other word would smell as sweet;
- Shakespeare
Ok, so we have demonstrated that a place of endless torment with the name of Hell is not in the bible. But the question must be asked, would Hell, by any other name, burn as hot?
What about the furnace, the tears, the gnashing of teeth, the chains, the lashings? What about the smoke of their torment? What about the Lake of Fire?
We wil cover all of these, of course, but - we have already done much work in the concept of fire. Between this thread an the Hearing God thread, we have discussed fire quite a bit and I feel we should be coming to a firm understanding of the purpose of God's fire.
I wanted to post this small entry to maintain integrity toward the concept --- the fire is coming. God is just. It is just not called hell. It isn't real fire, and it comes to an end.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2017 20:07:20 GMT -6
The Laws of Land, Debt, Redemption, and Jubilee!
Lev. 25:23 The land shall not be sold in perpetuity, for the land is Mine.
As creator, God claims ownership over all creation. The land is His. God would allow families to use the land, benefit from the land, even sell the rights to that land to others, but eventually, all land passes back to God. Man has always been the tenant of the land, not the owner. Of course this is true on a larger scale as well. Everything we think we own - it is God’s. We are simply taking care of it for Him. Do we see what we “have” as His? What about our car? Our money? What about our children? What about our future? What about our health? What about our salvation? It all belongs to Him. Offer it freely to the one who can take it whenever He wants, not to appease Him, but out of recognition that He is the rightful owner. As men incurred debts by violating the law or making bad business decisions, they would occasionally become indebted to another. This was called becoming a bondservant. A man and his entire family, if necessary, could be sold to the bond master until such debt was paid. Of course, if the debt was too much for the man to pay, a kinsman redeemer could pay the debt for the man. Lev 25:47 And if a sojourner or stranger wax rich by thee, and thy brother that dwelleth by him wax poor, and sell himself unto the stranger or sojourner by thee, or to the stock of the stranger's family:
Lev 25:48 After that he is sold he may be redeemed again; one of his brethren may redeem him:
Lev 25:49 Either his uncle, or his uncle's son, may redeem him, or any that is nigh of kin unto him of his family may redeem him; or if he be able, he may redeem himself.
Lev 25:50 And he shall reckon with him that bought him from the year that he was sold to him unto the year of jubilee: and the price of his sale shall be according unto the number of years, according to the time of an hired servant shall it be with him.
Lev 25:51 If there be yet many years behind, according unto them he shall give again the price of his redemption out of the money that he was bought for.
Lev 25:52 And if there remain but few years unto the year of jubilee, then he shall count with him, and according unto his years shall he give him again the price of his redemption.
Lev 25:53 And as a yearly hired servant shall he be with him: and the other shall not rule with rigour over him in thy sight.
We can see more detail on the laws of land, debt, and redemption here. In a previous post, I laid out the fact that Jesus made claim as our kinsman redeemer and paid the debt to Adam and therefore Adams family - which includes us and frankly - everyone. But we left off at that point. There is a deeper consideration in the law - the Jubilee. The Law of Jubilee
Lev 25 is written in such a way as to assume that anyone who has a redeemer would desire to use that redemption. But what if a person says, “NO. I don’t want to be redeemed?” In the end, isn’t that what Christianity teaches - that man has the ability to decline His own redemption? Well, we can’t tell from this law if someone could refuse or not - it is very likely that the debt was transferred from the bond master to the redeemer just like mortgages are transferred today. You as the debt payer, do not have option to stop one mortgage company from selling your debt to another. You simply start paying a different company. I imagine it was similar in these laws of redemption. However, let’s not stake everything on my guess and current America mortgage law - let’s see what provision God’s law makes. Whether someone does not believe in the redemption, has never heard of it, or believes it but does not want to become Christ’s bondservant - the law has also provided for their situation. Continuing to read, Lev 25:54 And if he be not redeemed in these years, then he shall go out[of his debt] in the year of jubilee, both he, and his children with him.
Because of our watchful state the last several months or even years, many of you have been learning about the Feast calendar and the Jubilee. Well, the Jubilee holds the authority of the final redemption. A Jubilee cycle was a period of 49 years (7 x 7). Each year on the Day of Atonement, the trumpet was blown to signify the day and announce the Atonement. At the end of the 49 years, ten days into the 50th year a trumpet was blown to signal the day of Jubilee. This was the day that all debts were cancelled, and every man was to return to his inheritance if he had lost it any time during the previous 49 years. Of course, the only ones who would be still in debt on the year of Jubilee would be those who had been unable to work long enough to pay off their debt or who did not have a redeemer. It would also apply to those who had not accepted the redemption offered by a redeemer. And this law is clear - HE IS STILL TO GO FREE. Here is a very important point - the only reason the Jubilee - or any of God’s law can stand - is because of the redemptive work of Christ. Without His blood shed on the cross there would be no redemption, there would be no life, there would be no Jubilee. As a last point of clarification - God tells us why this Jubilee law is true -
Lev 25:55 For unto me the children of Israel are servants; they are my servants whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
The children are HIS servants. Some of you believe the law brings death and therefore find it disgusting that I would demonstrate the Restoration of All through the law. This is a bit ironic since, in the end, Restoration is accomplish through death. But….. You will have noticed that I have demonstrated the Restoration of All Things through many different angles in scripture, logic, legality, etc. Some of those angles will speak more to some - others will speak more to others. But the Law should not be seen as least - Jesus came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it and some of the laws He fulfilled were the laws of redemption, land, and Jubilee. Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Please see this post for a better understanding of the law. The Old Testament Laws of redemption provide the manner and means by which God will legally and justly save all creation. Remember, the Old Testament Law is a small reflection of the True Law, that is, the character of God. We can compare the way Israel was ruled and judged to the way that God rules and judges the nations. This is why Jesus includes in his famous instructions on prayer to say "thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven." We study the law because it is the foundation of God's way of dealing with debt and sin as illustrated by the law. God does not instruct us to do good and then turn around and do evil. Do we think God really cares about who a piece of soil belongs to? Of course not. These laws are not about the land, they are about redemption. They are an illustration of the character of God and He uses land and debt to show us who He is. It is the same for all His laws. There are practical benefits to following the law, but it is the spiritual significance that God is pointing us toward. Also, did you know we are the land? More on that later. God has provided a way, through the blood of his son, within his own law to bring forgiveness to all creation. It is not just the means for the salvation of all, it is the mandate for the salvation of all. Some hearts are harder than others and God does not "save" everyone at the same time, there is an order to the salvation of creation as illustrated here: 1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Verse 21 - death came into the world by the sin of one man, life by the righteousness of one man Verse 22 - in Adam all die in Christ all will be made alive Verse 23 - there is an order to this salvation first Christ, then those who are in Christ when he comes, then the rest until there is no resistance left.
Verse 27 - all is put under him
Verse 28 - God will be all in all Stay tuned for more....
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Post by mike on Dec 3, 2017 21:35:00 GMT -6
Question for you...how long have have you studied this material to gain the understanding you have?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2017 22:20:59 GMT -6
Question for you...how long have have you studied this material to gain the understanding you have? mike, Since I was young, i have hungered for understanding from scripture and thirsted to hear God speak to me. So, I became familiar with a lot of scripture throughout my young years. When God turned my life upside down in the early 1990’s, He began to move me into a new understanding of who He is. By 2001, my spirit was ready to receive this magnificent truth that He would reconcile His entire creation back into Himself. That moment, when He revealed this truth to me, when He opened my eyes, and allowed me to see Him in this amazing new way is permanently stamped in my mind. For the next 7 years, I spent as much as my available time as possible to seek out the verification from scripture to what God was telling me. I read many different sources on all sides of the issue and tried, whenever possible to give more weight toward my traditional understanding so I could not be accused of favoring my new understanding. By 2009, I simply ran out of ways to argue against Restoration. I mean, there are passages that are more difficult to explain to others - but because of my immersion in the scripture and this topic in particular - I simply see right through those passages. Getting others to see this can be a challenge because they don’t have the woven fabric of truth that is in my mind. But over time, people begin to obtain this fabric themselves and than they rejoice as I did. Everyday, I see new evidence as I spend time with God and in His word. God continues to reveal things to me through His voice and His Word. But honestly, I feel I’ve started to forget more than I learn. I need to get this stuff documented before I loose my mind.  In all, I have been engaged its this study for about 16 years. SK |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Dec 3, 2017 23:02:35 GMT -6
I printed out thru upper half of page 5, and, yep it is indeed over 70 pages. and now I see I am behind by 2 pages in this thread...but what a Bible study it is! I share the same fried-egg brain as cw!
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Post by hereami on Dec 4, 2017 1:05:23 GMT -6
@silentknight, I suppose at this point I'm somewhere you were in that 7 year span you describe, examining restoration through the lens of ET I've always held to. I've been trying to follow along and remember all of what you've covered, but my memory ain't elephantine. So I apologize if I'm asking a question about something(s) you've covered in an earlier post.
One thing that has stood out to me in some of the "all" scripture references are the words "in Christ". I see those two words "in Christ" as qualifiers to the "all". For example, in the most recent scripture reference:
—1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Now, I suppose this could be read one of two ways; the first being the understanding with which I suppose you've presented the argument, being that all (no exclusions) will be made alive in Christ.
The second understanding being the way I read it; that those who are in Christ (exclusions apply-see ref. below) will be made alive bodily at the resurrection. All will indeed be resurrected, some to eternal life and some to die the second death.
—Galatians 3:26-29
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
—Romans 3:23-26
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
—2 Timothy 3:14-15
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
—2 Timothy 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
To me, the "in Christ" qualifier matters a great deal in interpreting who 1 Corinthians 15:22 is identifying. We are all "in Adam" because we are all made of the same sinful flesh. We (mankind) are not all "in Christ" because we have not all believed by faith in Jesus Christ and His free gift. Any thoughts?
Also in regards to the second death and the lake of fire, how is this passage reconciled in the light of restoration? Once again I apologize if I've forgotten an explanation of this in this thread.
—Revelation 20:10-15
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
In verse 10, the satanic trinity are in the LOF and are tormented day and night, for ever and ever. I understand this is that "age" word, but it seems clear to me that God wants the reader to understand that this is indeed for ever and ever. I say this because of the descriptors leaving no time out from this torment. Day and night, for "age and age" or, since there's two age's, it is for the age's. Eternity!
Verse 15 states that those who aren't found in the Book of Life are also bound for the same LOF. Now, one could say that it doesn't explicitly state that the verse 15'ers are tormented day and night, for ever and ever, so we can't say they are. But, they are in the same place as those who do receive that torment. Any help here?
I want to believe restoration. It is my greatest desire while on this earth to follow the doctrine of the LORD God without the tarnish of the doctrines of men. To rightly divide His Word so as to not misrepresent, preach or teach my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and His Father, my Father in any way, to the best of my understanding through the Spirit of Wisdom He has given me! Just thinking out loud here.
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Post by mike on Dec 4, 2017 6:59:22 GMT -6
I have a hunch hereami and had e-mailed a similar question with a short answer (in my limited understanding of restoration to SK) for review. I didnt want to get ahead of the program, so rather than ask in the thread handled differently. But your question about the lake of fire is certainly one that I'm sure several following have. But think back to SK's explanation a few pages back about "fire" and what it means. Wouldnt the one(s) who rebelled be truly in torment if they were subject to refinement for eternity? The first shall be last and the last first would be applicable here for certain if you are following me. Who wanted to be #1 and will end up being #(not enough digits to express the number) in the refinement process  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2017 10:04:51 GMT -6
Thoughts the Lord has put on my mind:
For those who have been following along with this thread and have had the opportunity to read the entirety of it, you will notice that I have come at Restoration from multiple directions. Part of the reason for this is to demonstrate that this is not a single facet topic. It cannot be defeated if one leg falls because there are multiple other legs upon which it stands.
We have talked about:
Good, Omniscience, Omnipotence - Who is in control, what do they want, are they smart enough to get it?
Love your enemies - Can God truly ask us to do what he is not willing or able to do?
The Legal requirements of the laws of liability - He dug the pit, he must buy the ox
The legal power of redemption, land laws, and debt - He purchased our redemption - it is paid.
The legal authority of the Jubilee
The true meaning of the word Aionois
The true meaning of the word apollumi
The very stated will of God
The fact that God will get what he wants
The fact that every knee will bow - because in him they have righteousness and strength
The fact that he will draw all men to himself.
The fact that all authority is given onto Christ.
The two Adams and how one brought death to All and one brought life to All
We have demonstrated several of the threatening passages are not even faith based or talking about endless torment
We have shown how the word Hell is never attached a place people go for endless torment based on lack of faith in Christ.
And several other important facets.
The difficulty I typically encounter, is that many people do not give themselves the time to hear multiple legs prior to discarding Restoration based on their disagreement with one of the legs. Since they may have only heard one or two legs, when they perceive one leg to be faulty, that’s it, they are out.
While some at unsealed have followed this pattern, several others have not. I honestly am not disappointed or upset with those that have dismissed this thread because I believe that God is placing this message in the ears of a called out people. This is the message going forward - but not all will hear and respond and - teach - what they hear. Would I want everyone to believe and deliver this message to the masses - both believers and unbelievers - absolutely - but I also realize that it will occur like a mustard seed growth.
For me, God blessed my journey by providing the belief first. He then set about showing me how it could be seen in scripture. But I need to make this clear - if that evening, I had been transported to a desert island and never had access to a bible again - I would have died knowing that God would reconcile all creation back into Himself. In a moment, I knew God in a whole new way. With my heavy Baptist background, I could never have studied myself to this truth. There are too many restraints that I thought I knew and thought were absolute, non negotiable facts.
Some of you may say - well then you let your new belief skew your study and like you say in the Hearing God thread, those idols in your heart shaped what you heard from God. To which I say - absolutely they do - and thanks for understanding the message of that thread! We must overcome our idols in the manner I provide in the Hearing God thread in order to subject them to the truth and I have the same battle as anyone else does. It is true, that even today, when I read scripture - restoration(and all that tags along) is the filter through which I read. I read trough the opposite filter the first 36 years of my life.
We often talk about interpreting scripture with scripture - but what we actually do is interpret scripture with our previous conceptions of what scriptures says. What else can we do? We don’t have it all memorized. Now, as one begins to see scripture from the eyes of restoration, that should begin to form a foundation of who God is and what scriptures says, and should therefore be an acceptable framework upon which we interpret other scripture - always subjecting all back to the Father for confirmation.
If we had a wealth of diverse scripture about the sky being blue and then we saw one verse that mentioned a red sky at night. We would not suddenly say, well maybe the sky isn’t blue. We would attempt to determine why, in this case, the sky is red. Or we would check the original language to see if somehow was translated in error, etc. You get the point.
Now - if red ended up actually meaning red, we would not discard it. We would not simply say, well I guess God got that one wrong. But we also would not throw out the idea that the sky is blue and say - well In this one place it talks about the sky being red - therefore the sky is red. We would need to harmonize it with the rest of our understanding of God and His word.
In the same way, if we see numerous demonstrations from multiple facets that God is not a God that will torment endlessly then when we come across something that looks like endless torment, we need to harmonize it with the rest of whom we know God to be - not discard it - nor take it to be the defacto position.
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