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Post by mike on Nov 23, 2017 22:05:57 GMT -6
Is it question time yet or is there more segments coming? 😀
If you are continuing and the following will be answered or I missed the answer please continue or perhaps point me back. If not
1. Are all names EVER in the Book of Life? Rev 20:15 seems to me that there would be something, some enemy aside from death and hell cast into the lake of fire.
2. Rev 22:14 - who would those "people" be who are found doing his commandments, eating the tree of life entering the city. And who are the dogs, sorcerers etc. outside the city gates. Likewise Rev 21:27 alludes there will still be those working abomination, lying, and defiling. Am I missing something here like is this piece of the end of Rev written not about the new heaven & earth after the millennium?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2017 8:47:38 GMT -6
Hey mike, I have much more to come on restoration, but I have no problem answering questions. I think this needs to be a discussion, not a lecture. I have to deal with some other things this morning but hopefully I can get to answering your question later this afternoon. |
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Post by mike on Nov 24, 2017 21:46:45 GMT -6
No worries...I've out of the loop most of the week and will be quite busy for the next few days with little time to check in. If you cover it in future posts I will see it there.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2017 8:44:51 GMT -6
Answers to mike 's questions. I'll at least provide some surface level answers for now. 1. Are all names ever in the Book of Life? So I interpret this question to be, At some time, will all names have been written and remain in the book of life? The answer to this question is not provided in scripture. We know that at certain points names are in the book of life. We know that at other times, names could be removed from the book of life. Since scripture does not tell us, we need to acknowledge we simply don’t know. But we can speculate. All will eventually have life, whether their names are added as an official task or not is unknown. My speculation is that the book of life controls access to the gates of the city, and the fruit of the tree of life. I also see God as perfect in all His ways and can’t imagine he would skip the entry of the names even once all names would be entered. Therefore, I do believe that eventually all names will be written in the book of life and the writing of the last name will trigger the momentous occasion when death is abolished, the kingdom is handed over to the Father, and God becomes all in all. I assume, based on scripture, that this will happen on the Day of Atonement during the Age of Ages - the Jubilee of Jubilees. Rev 20:15 refers to those raised in the second corporate resurrection (R2). This occurs 1000 years after the first corporate resurrection (R1). R2 consists of both believers and unbelievers. After R2, there is a judgement during which those not found in the book of life will be judged based on their works (from the books of the law) and cast into the lake of fire. 2. Who are the people eating the tree of life - who are the dogs, etc outside the gates? In Rev 22:14 and 21:27, we find that those that were cast into the lake of fire, who are not in the book of life, are not able to enter the gates of the city and partake in the fruits of the tree of life. Those that are written in the book of life are the ones entering the gates and partaking of the fruits of the tree of life. This is occurring after the 1000 years and will continue until the Age of Ages. The confusion comes in because we have been so programmed to believe that everything is finished after the millennium. We have to break out of our traditional understanding to see this. If anything, the verses you reference clearly indicate that works of rebellion will still be occurring after the 1000 years. This is true for ET just as much as Restoration. In ET, the insinuation is that these folks are in Hell with no hope to leave and therefore rebellion will always exist within creation. With annihilation, these people are being punished prior to being annihilated. With Restoration, these people are in the continuing process of the Restoration itself and their names will eventually be added to the book of life. |
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Post by mike on Nov 25, 2017 21:42:32 GMT -6
Yes that conditioning plays a role but I'm not sure if I'm reading this right or not.
Seems after the 1000 yrs one who's name is not in the book of Life is judged and thrown into the lake of fire. once someone is in the lake of fire they are there for good, are they not?
If I read that correctly isn't the lake of fire really eternal torment?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2017 23:47:18 GMT -6
Yes that conditioning plays a role but I'm not sure if I'm reading this right or not. Seems after the 1000 yrs one who's name is not in the book of Life is judged and thrown into the lake of fire. once someone is in the lake of fire they are there for good, are they not? If I read that correctly isn't the lake of fire really eternal torment? Sounds like I should make the lake of fire my next main topic. I'll go through this in detail, hopefully tomorrow, but I'll provide a short answer tonight. There is no such thing as endless torment. The experience of someone in the lake of fire is the second death. The last enemy that Christ must overcome is death. As long as someone is in the lake of fire, death is still victorious. None will stay there for good. The lake of fire is eternal in that it is the law / character of God. But the "burning" only occurs until the Age of Ages. God does not torture - He corrects. He does not permanently destroy - He restores. Christ will achieve His victory. Otherwise, neither Christ, nor the Father, are who They claim to be. But of course, They are! I will go into all the detail on this and lay out the scripture as much as possible over the next couple days. |
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Post by mike on Nov 26, 2017 7:56:44 GMT -6
Ok @silentknight, I see now. More questions coming into play, but I see the fire as refining. Please continue as you are able friend
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Nov 26, 2017 10:00:06 GMT -6
I decided to copy and paste to Word this thread...not only what SK is submitting, but some of the questions and comments and the replies...We are looking at close to 60 pages so far. I will have to buy more ink to print all of it... I was trying to take notes on paper so I could share with a friend..I can't even read my own handwriting!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2017 10:42:00 GMT -6
Yes that conditioning plays a role but I'm not sure if I'm reading this right or not. Seems after the 1000 yrs one who's name is not in the book of Life is judged and thrown into the lake of fire. once someone is in the lake of fire they are there for good, are they not? If I read that correctly isn't the lake of fire really eternal torment? Sounds like I should make the lake of fire my next main topic. I'll go through this in detail, hopefully tomorrow, but I'll provide a short answer tonight. There is no such thing as endless torment. The experience of someone in the lake of fire is the second death. The last enemy that Christ must overcome is death. As long as someone is in the lake of fire, death is still victorious. None will stay there for good. The lake of fire is eternal in that it is the law / character of God. But the "burning" only occurs until the Age of Ages. God does not torture - He corrects. He does not permanently destroy - He restores. Christ will achieve His victory. Otherwise, neither Christ, nor the Father, are who They claim to be. But of course, They are! I will go into all the detail on this and lay out the scripture as much as possible over the next couple days. Just being curious, dont want to derail your thead @silentknight.... Regarding the emboldened phrase above. What about Matthew 10:28? Are we talking about some sort of "final reconciliation"? EDIT: I am simply asking, dont want to argue anything... |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2017 12:32:51 GMT -6
Fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell
Thanks for the question stephen . Please don’t feel like you are derailing anything. There are so many angles and directions we could go in this conversation that it helps to hear what people are pondering so that I can direct my posts in a way that is most beneficial those reading along. Also, I am not one to be concerned about “arguing.” These are weighty topics and I expect some discussion will be required in order to help people settle things in their mind that may have been there for many years. I could literally continue this thread for months depending on the level of detail people want or need. I'd like to get the basic points out before going into great detail, but I want to be flexible to you all, because, it is for you that I am writing these things. This topic of Restoration is so overwhelmingly taught in scripture that it takes a long time to get through it all. On top of that, we have so many misconceptions about passages that seem to imply endless torture or annihilation that we need to spend considerable time un-learning. For those who have not been following this thread all along, it would be difficult for me to begin repeating parts of it and therefore catching up on the thread might also help to answer questions that come up. Also, the thread we put together on Hearing God, is closely related to this thread and therefore much can be gained by going through that thread. Here, I will answer the question about Matt. 10:28. First we need to look at the context of this verse. Jesus is preparing His disciples for the idea that they will be persecuted and He is suggesting ways they should act during this coming time: Mat 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
Mat 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
Mat 10:27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Here are some particular “instructions”: 1. Don’t try to figure out a what you will say in advance - the Holy Spirit will provide your words. 2. What the Father does tell you, repeat from the housetops. 3. Don’t allow your fear of those that can kill you to supersede your fear of the Lord. 4. Don’t be ashamed of me - don’t hide my name - don’t deny me. These are all basically the same instructions that are given to all overcomers - we have victory by the blood of the lamb, the word of our testimony and we love not our life unto death. Looking closer at verse 28, we see that it contains one of our tools that were provided early on in this study. “Destroy” is the word apollumi. It is the greek word for "lost or in a state of destruction". The lost lamb was apollumi - and then it was found. The prodigal son was apollumi - and then he was restored. The other word we should look at is the word “Hell.” The Greek does not say Hell. It says Gehenna. This is a physical location, not a future place of torment. I have not covered the 4 words that are translated as Hell yet. This will be in a future post. But when we combine some of this analysis with our reading of John 3 (from an earlier post), with the concept of abiding in Him, and with the general understanding of the feasts and how they apply to us individually, we see what is being said here: Notice - this is not a verse to unbelievers. Jesus is speaking to His disciples. This is our Pentecost experience. Do we submit to the fire(fiery word of God) as it comes? Or do we rebel in unbelief? The first shall be last. Now, I admit, that without demonstrating the many other passages that confirm Restoration, my reading of this verse may seem contrived. But what you will begin to see, is that this is the pattern that is repeated over and over again. Once we have covered 20 or 30 of these types of passages, one begins to see that the pattern does not confirm endless torment, it confirms The Restoration of All Things. To your question: "Are we talking about some sort of "final reconciliation"?" Yes. In a sense. The word "final" is a little foreign to the terminology I tend to use but yes, this thread is declaring that all will be reconciled into God and all will be All in All.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2017 15:01:15 GMT -6
Fun Statement of Truth
I believe and trust in the living God, who is the Savior of ALL men, specially of those that believe. And if ANY man sin, he has an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, the Resurrection, and the Life: who is the atonement for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE world. That God was in this Christ, reconciling the WORLD unto himself, not holding the sins of the world against the sinners. For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive. That at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that EVERY tongue should confess that “Jesus Christ is Lord and in Him have I righteousness and strength”, to the glory of God the Father. Remembering that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. When this is accomplished and the last enemy, Death, is destroyed then ALL things shall be subdued unto him, and then shall the Son also himself be subject unto the Father, that God may be ALL in ALL.
If you have read enough scripture, you will notice that each of the statements above is directly from scripture. So much more could be added to this paragraph, but as it is, it provides a decent outline of the reality of God’s plan.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Nov 26, 2017 15:33:12 GMT -6
I wish there were a way to comment on the side to someone, for rabbit hole purposes, but @stephan your new avatar..explanation by chance??
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2017 17:48:54 GMT -6
Lake of Fire - Detail 1
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
If we want to take the fire as literal, physical fire, we should be open to taking the wine as literal, physical wine. I don’t say this to be silly, but rather to demonstrate that over the years of our “understanding”, we have come to accept somethings because we have heard them so often. But we often have not really thought about it ourselves. Or, if we did, we often feel that we are simply not “smart” enough to know more than the great men and women who have come before us.
But really - Why are there no sermons about the horrible state of those being forced to drink wine for eternity? Even if someone does use the phrase “wine of the wrath of God”, they never mean literal wine.
But when it comes to fire, we go the opposite direction, even though the evidence is overwhelming that this is not talking about a physical fire. A physical fire would incinerate the flesh completely in less than an hour and would have no impact on the soul or spirit at all. There would be almost no point to this fire other than to simply kill the body and serve as a short term torture. If the lake of fire is full of literal fire, than what does that say for the state of those martyrs for Christ that were burned at the stake? If physical fire is what the wicked shall receive, what differentiates the martyr?
Furthermore, it is against the law of god to burn people to death. The only time fire can be used as punishment is in response to someone who burned someone else:
Exo 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
Exo 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Exo 21:25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
Otherwise, crimes were to be punished according to the crime and no more. Lashes were limited. There was a death penalty, but it was not administered via torture - although stoning was not exactly pleasant.
Once again - God does not violate His own character.
So we know that the fire is not physical. No, this is a spiritual fire. But what exactly is the fire? What impact does it have? Why must it exist?
Examples of God's connection to Fire:
I have mentioned a few times that God’s word is His Fiery Law. Which, in turn, represents His character - His glory - His holiness. To be in this presence of Him - immediately begins to destroy the carnal parts of who we are. During this life, we are offered many opportunities to hear God and allow His word to burn off our carnal nature as we say, “Yes” to him and walk in faith in what he tells us. We also have the opportunity to say, “No!”
When we walk outside of faith, we suffer judgment.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
This condemnation is the judgement. It occurs moment by moment as we walk out a life of disbelief - or lack of faith. We do not hear, we do not believe, and if we do hear, we do not obey. The result is we walk in the destruction of our judgement. What is the purpose of this judgment? To bring us to repentance and perfection. Although, technically, we are being punished as a result of our sin and the effect that sin has on our body, minds, relationships, etc., the punishment is not the actual point. It is only a natural outcome. The point is that the evil wreaked upon our life though our own unbelief and disobedience brings us toward death and eventually, to new birth.
But those who walk by faith are in training to be Sons of God, they allow the fire to burn them moment by moment. They may think of themselves last in this life, but shall be first in the next. For what are we training? Two things really - 1) to come into agreement with God, and 2) To judge the world and angels:
1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
During the ages of ages, WE will serve the purpose of executing His fiery law.
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever[during the Ages of Ages]: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
This judgment is taking place in the presence of the lamb. The lamb is the one who takes away the sin of the world.
Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
This experience is in the lake of fire and these shall be joined by others later:
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
The one who overcomes shall be God’s son (Rev 21:7). The saints shall judge the world. The saints shall judge angels. But how is this accomplished? Via the lake of fire!
Deu 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
Deu 33:3 Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.
The saints will administer the fiery law from the hand of God in the presence of the one who takes away the sins of the world during the ages of ages.
But to do this, these saints must have received training through experience of walking in love and faith - this starts in this life.
And now, let’s take a look a a famous passage we all know, but misplace:
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
This is at the end of Revelation - but clearly talking about the New Jerusalem - Zion - Bride. The gates are unlocked, the water of life flows from the throne and Jesus, who is the first and the Last is present - but also, the Spirit and the Bride say, “Come! And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come.” And the result is “And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.”
Now, let us ask ourselves - Who is the Spirit and the Bride talking to? The Bride made herself ready when she came down out of heaven, so she is now sitting on, or hovering over the earth and calling to those who are “without” the city. And what is she calling? “Come!” The invitation is still open! And eventually, all will respond.
Isaiah 26:9 says, “For when the earth experiences Thy judgments, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.”
And of course, we have yet to talk about the Jubilee!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2017 0:40:33 GMT -6
Fun Statement of Truth I believe and trust in the living God, who is the Savior of ALL men, specially of those that believe. And if ANY man sin, he has an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, the Resurrection, and the Life: who is the atonement for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE world. That God was in this Christ, reconciling the WORLD unto himself, not holding the sins of the world against the sinners. For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive. That at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that EVERY tongue should confess that “Jesus Christ is Lord and in Him have I righteousness and strength”, to the glory of God the Father. Remembering that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. When this is accomplished and the last enemy, Death, is destroyed then ALL things shall be subdued unto him, and then shall the Son also himself be subject unto the Father, that God may be ALL in ALL. If you have read enough scripture, you will notice that each of the statements above is directly from scripture. So much more could be added to this paragraph, but as it is, it provides a decent outline of the reality of God’s plan. Still having some objections....concerning the ALL.... hope a discussion on this is helpful here. First, thankyou @silentknight for your extensive answer to my first question on Matth 10:28. Not fully convinced.... According to Strong's concordance on apollumi: And concerning the ALL: Matth 28:10 ALL knees wil bow. Yes, but IMO some knees will not bow because they love Jesus, but because they have no other choice but to admit, HE is Lord. The whole thing sounds to me a bit like the RCC teaching "purgatory". I hope I am wrong on this....? barbiosheepgirl : The mouse Reepicheep is my favourite character of the Narnia books, always focused on the final target, Aslan and his land. Hold on to Jesus  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2017 10:22:10 GMT -6
Answers to Questions - All vs Many - Destroy - Knees Bowingstephen - good follow-up questions. Destroy - Apollumi
The thing we need to realize about concordances, such as Strong’s, is that their primary purpose is to identify where words are located within a body of literature. In the case of Strong’s, it lists where the words are located and then documents the translations that were given in those passages. Now, many concordances include a lexicon as well. Strong’s lexicon is certainly not exhaustive, and if you look at it with any regularity you can see that it draws it’s meanings primarily from translations used already. A horrible example is here: In Acts 2, we find this: Act 12:4 And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.
This is completely ridiculous, but serves to prove a point. Because the word was mistranslated in the KJV, Strong's uses that as one of it's "definitions" But Passover should never be translated Easter. Now let's take a look at apollumi: This leaves a large berth of possible interpretations that could be attached to any passage. Clearly, there are examples in scripture of apollumi things being recovered (destroyed lamb, destroyed coin, prodigal son). Therefore we cannot simply conclude that it means utter destruction. But even if we choose to believe it always means utterly destroyed (which it does not), we still can conclude that Jesus is capable of restoring something that is utterly destroyed. Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost[apollumi].
Why did the translator choose lost here? Well because that fits their theology. If apollumi means utterly destroyed, then how could Jesus save it? Or did Jesus come for a purpose that He was never going to be able to accomplish? No, they needed to use the word lost, because otherwise they would be forced to acknowledge that Jesus was capable of restoring even that which was destroyed. But lucky for us, it doesn’t even need to matter exactly what the word means - we simply need to know that Jesus came to save that which was apollumi. And therefore, being apollumi is not a final condition. The bottomline here is that no matter what we decide it means, from lost[apollumi] like the prodigal son (who was found again) to fully destroyed, Jesus came to restore that which was apollumi! from the lost[apollumi] lamb that the shepherd sought until he found it, Jesus came to restore that which was apollumi! from the lost[apollumi] silver that the woman sought until she found it, Jesus came to restore that which was apollumi! The question is: Do we believe that Jesus is powerful enough, wise enough, and good enough to accomplish His purpose? Or do we believe that mere man is able to stand in His way? _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ All vs Many
So if one of us present a passage that says “Many” and one of us present a passage that says “All”, what shall we choose to believe? I suppose it depends a bit one how we were raised. If we have been raised to believe that many - or even most - will perish away from the love of God and that Jesus will not accomplish his stated mission to save that which was destroyed, then we may see many as the truth. If we have seen the pattern of how God will restore His creation into Himself, then we see the All as truth. You present this: Mat 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. I present this: 1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. You could present this: Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. I could present this: Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. These verses are actually all saying the same thing. But, since both are in the bible, we need to deal with them. I will first give a common sense proof, then two logical ones, then a legal one, then a spiritual one. Common sense:
If I make two statements: 1. Bob received many grapes. 2. Bob received all grapes. Can they both be true? Yes, of course. But only #2 reveals the full truth. Many is part of All. But does not limit us to less than All. As a matter of fact, if we have both of these facts, we are forced to choose #2 as the ultimate truth, because it reveals more information without contradicting the other information. If we believe only #1, we leave out the rest. This would violate the facts as provided to us in our two statements. Since we have both versions in scripture - we must conclude that the Many reaches all the way to All. Otherwise we are throwing out the All passages in preference to the Many - which is actually what much of Christianity has been doing for centuries. What excuse do we have to ignore the All passages? We really need to dig deep into in our own hearts. If presented with both - why is it the All passage we try to explain away or ignore and the Many passage we cling to? Why don’t we do the opposite? And even better yet, why don’t we try to harmonize them? Restoration harmonizes them. ET has a preconceived idea of the outcome and therefore ignores or explains away the All passages. Logical Proof:In logic and computer science, we have a one to many relationship. Paul, In the Romans 5 passage, is using this type of structure. His purpose is not to limit (or even quantify) the number included in Many. He is making a comparison to the act of one (Adam / Christ) and the result for many (however many else). He even says he is doing this in verse 15: Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.The funny thing is, He is saying that the second one to many relationship in Christ is the same, but even more powerful. So that the Grace of God, is even a greater "one to many" power than the offense of Adam. But if we don’t believe the logical argument, Paul has already clarified - outside of his logical argument - that he means All - in verse 18: Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
So you don’t have to buy his logical argument - not all of us are versed in logic proofs. Verse 5:18 tell us straight-out. Second Logical Proof:Both Alls are the same. Both Many’s are the same. We cannot legitimately claim that the many that are dead in Adam is not All. If we do, we depart from the basic concept that All have sinned and we also depart from the truth of Rom 5:18 - which states that though Adam the judgement came upon all men. Therefore, the Many in the case of the offense must mean All. We cannot claim that the Many means All when dealing with destruction, but the Many only means Some when dealing with justification. We must choose. And, of course, once again, Paul prevents us from making the faulty choice by telling us - “I mean All”: Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Now, these verses should be enough to conclude that all are to be made alive and justified. However, these verses only confirm what all of scripture claims. Here are a few other verses that help to define the scope: Isa 52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
Isa 52:10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I will give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Jhn 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Jhn 7:2 Thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me, shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in nowise cast out..
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Jhn 4:34 My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
Rev 4:11 Thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Eph 1:9-10 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure, which he hath purposed in himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of times, he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth, even in him.
Jhn 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Luk 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Luk 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?
Legal and Spiritual Proof:
Please see the post on The Two Adams for the legal and spiritual proofs. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Knees bowing:
I have a post on Every Knee. If you want more detail. But will summarize here again: You stated: I have heard this sentiment many times. Indeed, I used to believe that myself. But then I took time to consider why I had that opinion? Does it not spring from our belief that since we "know" not all will believe, and since we know that the bible says every knee will bow, we must "assume" that they are kneeling out of force, not choice? And yet, if we look at the passages about the knees bowing, that is not at all the picture being presented. It has just been something we have assumed based on an understanding of ET. There are three ways we know that this act of bowing and confessing is not out of force. The original passage where Paul is quoting, combined with what Paul adds in His own epistle, says that these people: 1. Are, or will be, Saved, 2. Have righteousness and strength in the Lord, 3. Call Jesus Lord Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Isa 45:24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
We know that: 1 Co 12:3 …. No man can say that Jesus is the Lord but by the Holy Ghost.
So the full understanding of these combined passages is that every knee will bow to Christ and that every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord and that in him they have Righteousness and strength. And that this proclamation can only be done by the Holy Spirit. And the result is they are or will be saved. Unless, once again, we choose to believe that God will not do what he says He will do. Even when He swears he will do it. We know this will happen because God says, “I have sworn an oath” and promises His word will not return. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ This is not about Proving Restoration - it is about knowing GodBut having said all this - the proof of Restoration is not to be found in the beautiful truth we can piece together throughout all of scripture. I mean, this does provide a physical / letter of the word proof. But the actual proof is in coming to know God. God is not the torturing or murdering monster that we have come to worship. His image has been corrupted by us, but He remains the same. His desire and stated purpose is to save his people from their sin. HIs desire and stated purpose is to bring all under submission to Him. His desire and stated purpose is to become All in All. He has made this claim multiple times in scripture. But we, through our pride, have somehow determined that we can stop Him from accomplishing His purpose. If even one is not Restored unto Him - He has failed to accomplish His purpose. But that, of course, is silly! Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Isa 46:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
Isa 46:12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:
Isa 46:13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.
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