The Restoration of All Things

I just wanted to clarify the forever and ever bit.  I do not say that this mean Ages and Ages.  I say, it means ages of the ages.  That is part of why we know the translators are "cheating":

They add a conjunction "And"
They drop the definite article "the"
They drop the possessive "of"
They use a word forever that is not the meaning of Aionios
They use another word ever that is not the meaning of Aionios
They use a concept that is meaningless - forever and ever - technically this is no longer than forever, but they know ages is used twice so they try to mimic the cadence.
Effectively, they ignore the proper grammar and meaning altogether, in order to push their own theology.  

Compare the KJV with YTL:

KJV - Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

YLT - Rev 20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night—to the ages of the ages.


I know this seems really picky, but some people will try and use a single word to destroy the entirety of the beautiful truth of Restoration.  

Not that you were doing that mike - but I never know who will read this and start claiming that I said something I didn't say.  

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In regard to the eventual disposition of Satan - I have made no claim so far in this thread.  But I am saying people will ask and you will want an answer.

We also have not covered this word that is used for torment. Understanding this word better would give us better insight into these things. Perhaps those lessons are yet to come.

Playing "devil's advocate' eh mike?   Hahaha. I couldn't resist...ok serious. 

Let me play the other side of the court...

Is Satan and the fallen angels redeemable like us? Is their sin and rebellion used to fulfill God's plan no different than God using our sin and rebellion to fulfill His plan?

There are very few verses that discuss the final destination of Satan & the fallen angels. However most of the bible is about the saving work of Christ and the redemption of mankind, so should we really be concerned about Satan and how God is going to deal with Him?  

mike , I thought it would create a shorter post if I did not quote your whole post.


In regard to my pickiness:
My point in being picky was not to point out the actual meaning of the words - my point was to correct what you said that I taught. You said "even with your take on 'forever & ever' meaning Ages & ages."

That is not my take. Someone else could come along and say, See SK doesn't know what he is talking about and therefore dismiss the rest of Restoration.  I was not trying to make a new argument about the timeframes involved.

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I don't expect that everyone will explain things the same way as me.  They might not even agree with everything I brought forward. 


Dealing with Forever and ages:
You say:  "Cant someone say you doing exactly that with defining Forever as Ages? " My friend, the word is ages, the translators wrote forever.  I am not defining forever as ages, they are defining ages as forever. 

Dealing with either way it is a long time:
No disagreement there.  It is an undefined amount of time would be better - but still, likely a long time.  Is there a suggestion that people are not able to comprehend the difference between forever and a long time?  There is a HUGE difference between them:  One doesn't end - the other one does. 

We need to develop an age based mindset.  Our previous mindset was:    NOW      ---     FOREVER.  But God is working in a set of ages, which is why He talks about them throughout scripture.  

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Now - as to Satan:
I brought up Satan because people will ask what happens to him.  I have not made any comment one way or the other as to what happens to Satan.  I am not dodging it anymore than I am dodging half a dozen other things that we have not talked about.  

If the readers of this thread wish me to expound upon this area, I will.  When barbiosheepgirl asked about teaching advise, I advised that people will want an answer in this area. I did not provide an answer.

As MikeTaft mentioned.  The angels and satan are not in the same position that we as humans are in.  The do not need to be "saved" by the blood of the lamb.  They are called to and fulfill their purpose.

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The big picture:
There are multiple people telling me that they would like the big picture. That they learn better that way.  That is why I said that teaching this depends on the audience.  Some people want the detail and tell me to slow down, others tell me to give them the big picture.  At this point, each of you has the information you need to go any direction you want.  If you want to present the overview - you have all the information you need.  If the one point missing is what happens to Satan, then let's talk about that.  So far it just hasn't come up.

Decide for yourself. Look at the scripture. Can we have a forever that ends? Can we have a forever that hasn't started? Can we have plural forevers? Can we point to a particular forever ("This forever"). Because the bible talks about all of those. But they make complete sense when we realize the word means age and of an age.

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This kind of analyzing helps me a lot. My brain simply does not do this or think like this. At least not with reading and keeping track/picking up so much detail. My short term memory and retention is terrible... However when someone else who is good at doing this and can explain the details, it helps a lot. I know it takes a lot of time. I usually go through reading these post several times and continue to pick up new details. Lots of good questions today  

I think and this is just a general suggestion coming from experience, if anyone who is reading this or studying this and hasn't printed it off, they should. Reading and learning from a screen and reading and learning from print are very different from one another. A lot more is retained and easily absorbed when something is read and studied in print. More of our senses and emotions are engaged when reading from print rather than a screen. We can reference easier, mark off/highlight important details or areas of question, and take notes. The more certain senses are engaged together in learning, the more that is retained and understood.

Just my two cents.

mike ,

All is fine and no apology was required. I wasn't offended by you accidentally misquoting me. I simply wanted it on the record so that other people wouldn't think that's what I said .
I also totally knew that you weren't trying to take anything away from restoration, I just have had the experience before when other people think I believed a certain thing used that against me even though I don't believe that thing. That was the only reason I wanted to correct the wording. I was considering what some future reader would say. I wasn't concerned about what you were saying.

I also completely understood that you did not think I was dodging anything.

What is interesting is, I did not perceive that you were asking for an answer about Satan. I simply thought you were posting some of your own statements and maybe some rhetorical questions. Now, having seen that you were actually asking a question about the disposition of Satan I will certainly cover it . Considering how often it comes up with people, I have definitely formed my opinion on the matter.

Thanks for your clarification and thanks for your apology even though I wasn't offended by you.

I'll see if I can deal with Satan and the angels later today.