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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2017 16:09:07 GMT -6
Spiritual Challenge!
Sorry - short detour again as I feel led to lay this out - I sort of apologize in advance for the tone this note will take. There are different purposes to which I am called - one is teacher - one is not….
I’m going to once again ask you to willing to suspend - as much as we are able - the traditional dispensationalist teaching you may have acquired over your lifetime.
Let’s define that a bit. Because most of us don’t even know what to call the various things we believe. If someone said, “Do you agree more with Calvinism or Arminianism, we would be like - "uhhh. I don’t know." I think that is a good thing so don’t take it as an insult. Some people spend so much time studying what other people have written that they never have time to actually just meditate on the word of God. Now, I’m not talking about all learned people and I do think we can learn from others - so don’t worry about that.
My point is that we may not know the source of what we know - or even why we know it. And of course, there are variations to every teaching with some elements closer to truth and others farther. Some of you have been commenting that you are asking questions like never before. You are starting to question what you know and say, “How did they come to that conclusion?” This is beautiful!
Dispensationalism
So to put some definition to things: Dispensationalism is basically the belief that God works with different people in different ways throughout history. Mainly, that he operated under an age of Law with Israel, and an age of Grace with the Gentile. It purports that this age of Grace is an interruption in God’s dealing with Israel and that, when this age of grace is over, God will go back to dealing with Israel. Common versions of it teach that God’s plan of salvation is different for Israel than it is for the gentile. That Gentiles are saved by grace and that Israel is saved by election as the chosen people. Some people even extend this idea to support that Jesus will reign from a temple in Israel and that the sacrificial system will be re-activated in the Kingdom of God.
By now you may know that I consider that completely farcical. I do agree that God has worked through a set of ages, but those ages did not define different methods of salvation. Since the beginning and continuing until the end - everyone is saved by Grace. No one is saved by the Law or by special election.
Or, if you want, you could reverse that and say - everyone is saved by special election - and we have all been elected. The Jubilee is not something that was invented after the fact to fix a mistake. The Jubilee was always part of the plan, part of creation, part of God.
But only by the name of Jesus shall people be saved - there is not other name! Absolutely!
What was Jesus’ name? He has many. What did his parents call him? Jeshuah.
Note: I am not one who gets caught up in the whole “what is the real name of Jesus and God thing.” That is not what I am doing here - He is big enough to deal with the name confusion.
I am showing you something fun - Guess what the Hebrew word is for God's salvation? Jeshuah!
Exo 15:2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
My Yah has become my Jeshuah!
Psa 118:14 The LORD is my strength and song, and is become my salvation.
My Yah has become my Jeshuah!
Psa 118:20 This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter.
Psa 118:21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation.
My Jehovah has become my Jeshuah!
Isa 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.
My El - my Yah Jehovah - has become my Jeshuah!
What am I showing you? Moses, David, Isaiah - they knew the name of Jesus. He has always been everyone’s salvation. And so did many others. God's Salvation is the only name under heaven by which men can be saved!
Well, some of the ramifications of this dispensationalist teaching are that it begins to require gaps in the plan of God so that we can work with this people for awhile and then switch to working with another people and then switch back again. With these gaps come a misunderstanding of history and which people are which people and who God is really trying to save and who is special and on and on. It also pushes us into thinking things like the Holy Spirit is removed from the earth at some point(because God can suddenly become not omnipresent) or that Israel is simply going to be saved by osmosis, or that somehow judging the people on the earth - gentile or jew - at the end of the age will somehow make things right for all the generations of gentiles and jews throughout the centuries in between the cross and the day the stars fall. Have you ever thought about that? If this is an hour of testing for someone today, how does that do anything for someone who died yesterday? What is the point of only testing the last generation? What is to be gained? And wouldn’t we all want to be in the last generation? I mean that is the only generation that can be tested and come out on top? The other generations didn’t get a chance.
Or, if no one can pass the test, then why should we be the ones cursed to live when God issues the trial? Why not let us(this generation) all die before the test?
We have created an idea that by rapturing the church and then testing the Jew - that somehow that test will result in salvation for all Israel? We justify this because all the old testament prophets talk about Israel in the last day and Romans says all Israel will be saved - so, since we have nothing upon which to hang these truths we create a paradigm where this can work - but it defeats our own theology. How can all Israel be saved apart from faith in Jesus Christ? ET says most of Israel will spend eternity in Hell. How can they “all” be saved. If the last generation somehow comes to believe, due to the events of the “tribulation,” then how does that do anything to save their relatives that died just before the tribulation started, or 50 years earlier, or in the 5th century?
It doesn’t - but we just ignore that because we don’t have another way to explain it. Oh wait - they are the special chosen people. So God will save them apart from grace and faith and all the things that we say are required for salvation. No, they can kill the savior and usurp his Kingdom and then because a few thousand or millions of their family believe in the last day - the rest all get saved? But if we teach that, than why would they need to be tested in the first place - they are already chosen and their ancestors don't have to be tested. Nope. Something doesn't add up, but many tele-prophet out there is telling us to believe these things.
No. I’m afraid that is bad theology. Besides - that same teaching also says that the holy spirit was removed during the rapture so how is it that there is any saving work of the spirit to bring these people to their senses? One cannot come to God - He must draw you to Him. Oh, unless you are a jew?
Of course, none of this was taught before the 1800’s. There was no chance for Israel to ever be a nation again. But once things started looking like Israel was coming back to the land - well then our understanding of all these prophecies began to change. We created a system - dispensationalism - to deal with the theological problems and we also invented a pre-trib rapture to get the church out of the way to clear the way for God to work with his Chosen people.
Wait! What? Did he just say there was no pre-trib rapture? No. Relax. I did not quite say that. But what I am saying is that unless we change our perspective we will never settle the pre-trib, pre-wrath, post-trip rapture questions. As you may have noticed - there are countless opposite teachings on these things and they are each using the "best and most appropriate hermeneutics." They each know more about history and God and all that. How can that be? Is this supposed to remain a mystery? Or are we just so blinded by what dispensationalism has done to us that we can’t see straight.
What if the problem wasn’t with the timing of the rapture? What if the problem was with the timing of the tribulation? What if we have mixed up a great number of events? What really was Jesus talking about in Matt. 24? Who was he talking to? Was it a one time prophecy? Almost no prophecy is. What if we are mixing up things that happened then with things that are to happen in the future? What if the rapture happens right when it is supposed to, but the events surrounding the rapture look differently than we are expecting?
I have always loved the blindness demonstrated by the immanency teachers. Before Israel - "He could come at anytime." Then Israel becomes a nation and they say - "now that Israel has become a nation - He could come at any time." Well, then you were wrong before Israel became a nation - he could not have come at any time then, could he? But we just keep seeing prophecy fulfilled and then that becomes the next thing that proves He could come at any time.
Peace treaty:
Another example of this stuff we think we know is that an antichrist will sign a peace treaty with Israel. Really? Where, in the bible, does it actually say that? Right next to there it talks about the three wise men? Or the ascension of Mary?
There is a scripture that says, “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week…” (Dan 9)
Can we just have some integrity? This section of scripture is full of pronouns and people have debated - which he is which he is which prince is - well you get the point. And it says nothing about a treaty of peace. What we can say for sure is that someone will confirm a covenant with many for one week.
Maybe it is a peace treaty - maybe not. Maybe there are covenants that have been made(in the scripture) - that were confirmed. Maybe there are other ways of looking at this passage - a passage that has inspired a 7 year tribulation, a future 70th week of Daniel, etc. But maybe those interpretations are simply not historically or spiritually accurate. We will be looking at this.
Replacement Theology:
Right about now, someone reading this is saying, well if you don’t believe in dispensationalism, but you still think Christians are saved, then you must believe in Replacement Theology. That is, the idea that the church has replaced Israel as the chosen people. No. I don’t believe that either. I believe that the church started with Adam and it continues to this day. It has had stages of revelation and understanding, and those stages are continuing to develop.
We will experience a very similar experience (one that we now mock the passover church for) - that is, we have our expectation all set up on what the end will look like - then when it comes, we will not see it for what it is, and we will be deceived. We will stay in our Pentecost church and not move forward with the spirit into Tabernacles. But we have the benefit of witnessing it happening 2000 years ago. Such a shame to think of it happening again. The true irony is that the very problem that faced the transition people 2000 years ago is also the very thing that deceives us again today. That is, we walk according to the flesh - not the spirit. Our interpretation of everything is according to the physical, the carnal, the things of this world. We do not perceive the scriptures from the spiritual, the eternal, the things of heaven. And so, our theologies continue to evolve, based on new physical information, but we still don’t see the spiritual truth that underlies.
I am merely a messenger:
Now, I also do not have a lock on truth and I am subject to all the things I describe in writing about others. I do not claim to be better or more knowledgable. But I do have a message of limited understanding, and I am called to deliver it. God could choose to shut off my understanding at any point and he has limited me in key areas that I desperately wish I understood. Some things are not for me to know at this time.
So, I am not saying - I have all the answers. I am saying - I have some answers, and stop trusting all this stuff you have been told that doesn’t actually make sense and changes the very character of God. Even if I am wrong about everything - that does not make these other teachings right! Test the spirit of the teaching - trust the Spirit for understanding - open your hearts to hearing God. Time is quickly bringing us to the next big move of God.
Hopefully, now we are clear to get back to harvests and resurrection.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Dec 13, 2017 19:44:49 GMT -6
SK, just for the record, in case others think this, the Age of Grace as I understood was meant in a general sense (I call the period before Christ's Resurrection the Age of Law so to speak). But God is going to become super more active in redeeming this earth (or as I am learning , His Creation). To do so God would remove this present age believers that received that Grace, and this present age would begin its transition. The focus of the Gospel Message, would now be concentrated on His Work through Israel once again, even though more Gentile would come along to Faith, as we know there are tribulation saints, but we are told the 144,000 witnesses are Jews, hence God working thru the jews to continue his plan. When Christ walked, in how I was perceiving it, was that no longer was God showing his work thru his chosen people, but now was going to work thru the Gentile believers as the focus, (he hardened the hearts of the jews after they rejected Christ) It is not that they are to be automatically saved in this next age, but that He would work specifically thru them, ie the 144,000 witnesses from the Tribes would witness to the Salvation of God, the stumbling block would not be a stumbling block anymore. I never understood it to mean that grace was no longer for anyone, or only for the jews, or that the salvation message was changed. And as I am learning, all the peoples that do not take the Mark are counted for something later etc etc. God would still be allowing peoples to die as unbelievers, but I never thought that the Gospel message would not be available to them. And the Good News that I am learning from this thread is that there is going to be restoration for everyone at some point. It really makes the last few chapters of Revelation come to life! In regards to the Restainer being removed, I have heard a pastor preach on it as not that the Holy Spirit is out of here, but is not going to restrain the one that we are referring to as the antichrist. The Holy Spirit steps aside, if you will. Kinda sounds like the 1st Seal that is opened where the horseman on a white horse comes to conquer. The Holy Spirit lets this person run amuck and destroy. (For the record I have been in the camp lately of rt where the first few seals are open already, but let's not digress). I am being patient though as you are doing a really good job of building your cases. I would not want to be blind to scriptures that should be able to be understood, and learn which ones that have been misinterpretted by many...so I am still here! |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2017 20:33:00 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl , thanks for the post. There are all kinds of levels of dispensational teaching. Some much softer and closer to the truth, some much harder core. So while, some people may use age of grace in a general term. Others do teach that Israel itself is saved through election - or being chosen. Of course, each of us have formed our own understanding and may not adhere to the most hardcore elements of dispensationalism. I do not believe that the 144,000 are jews. But this will need some vetting before I can fully explain this. The root of the problem is that due to dispensationalism and due to the fact that this has been somewhat hidden by God, most of us don't understand who the players are anymore. Who is a Jew, who is an Israelite? I will need to do a complete post on this topic and this is part of why I asked each of you to start studying Hagar and Sarah. And why I say there is a big shaking coming soon and it won't play out the way most are expecting - we must be prepared to explain it to the sheep. You are BarbioSheepGirl! You are already used to working with Sheep! God has trained you for this moment in history! Very important - as my last few notes have been trying to drive home - there is one church. There is one chosen people. But the root of the tree of Abraham will grow and grow and grow as the sand on the seashore and the stars in the sky. We are all grafted into Abraham. He does not work with us and then work with them, etc. Guess what - when we are grafted in, did we think we just got grafted into a no-name tribe? I submit to you that we are grafted into a tribe. And I further venture that the tribe has particular connection to who we are in Christ. Praise the Lord! Also, the 144,000 can't all be Jews - most of them are Israelite! Check the tribe names. Now - I am keenly aware that I am going to be touching on some very sensitive topics here. And that is why my last few posts have been trying to warn you all and to ask you to humbly submit yourselves to the Lord. I have avoided a couple of these topics for quite awhile because I am afraid I will lose some of you. But the Lord has reprimanded me for my fear and reminded me that this is not about me. He will simply not wait any longer while I delay - and so I put it in His hands. One more reminder that, although to me, these things go hand in hand with Restoration - if any of you turn away now - please don't desert Restoration as well. It can stand on its own - but these coming teachings will help things become more clear. I truly appreciate your patience barbiosheepgirl. I hope I can make all of this more clear shortly. Honestly, that last post just spilled out onto the page and didn't really come from me. I know how pretentious this sounds, but I just have to be straight forward about these things.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2017 20:56:41 GMT -6
I think the speed of your posts is just right SK. I'm still waiting to hear from God the confirmation that He has settled in your heart. Proving ALL things so to speak. And that is perfectly ok with me. I'm one of those detail oriented kind of folk, so I rather thrive on the intricacies and illumination of the layers that God has woven into His Divine Word, whether through a direction revelation to me or through the passing on of one given by a brother. So what some others may find boring, I find fascinating and faith building. I enjoyed reading your 3:01 post about how all that just happened to happen for you at those exact times. It's almost like it was ordered by God Himself or something!😁 I've been seeing 33's everywhere since April or so, mostly when I just "happen" to look at the clock, but other places too. And I'm never looking for it, it's just always there, and moreso during "valley" times in my life. After a few months I had to do some research because it had gotten way past coincidence. Promises is what I found and so now every time I see it I just take it as Gods way of affirming "I will never leave you, nor forsake you" to me! Sorry, rabbits run everywhere in my head and I gotta chase one now and again. Back on track, I did have a question, if there's time about something the Holy Ghost had me pause on in Jeremiah several weeks ago. Is the following scripture pertinent or related to what we are discussing now? —Jeremiah 35:1-10
1 The word which came unto Jeremiah from the Lord in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, saying,
2 Go unto the house of the Rechabites, and speak unto them, and bring them into the house of the Lord, into one of the chambers, and give them wine to drink.
3 Then I took Jaazaniah the son of Jeremiah, the son of Habaziniah, and his brethren, and all his sons, and the whole house of the Rechabites;
4 And I brought them into the house of the Lord, into the chamber of the sons of Hanan, the son of Igdaliah, a man of God, which was by the chamber of the princes, which was above the chamber of Maaseiah the son of Shallum, the keeper of the door:
5 And I set before the sons of the house of the Rechabites pots full of wine, and cups, and I said unto them, Drink ye wine.
6 But they said, We will drink no wine: for Jonadab the son of Rechab our father commanded us, saying, Ye shall drink no wine, neither ye, nor your sons for ever:
7 Neither shall ye build house, nor sow seed, nor plant vineyard, nor have any: but all your days ye shall dwell in tents; that ye may live many days in the land where ye be strangers.
8 Thus have we obeyed the voice of Jonadab the son of Rechab our father in all that he hath charged us, to drink no wine all our days, we, our wives, our sons, nor our daughters;
9 Nor to build houses for us to dwell in: neither have we vineyard, nor field, nor seed:
10 But we have dwelt in tents, and have obeyed, and done according to all that Jonadab our father commanded us.If not, I apologize, and just disregard the question. Keep on bringing the teaching and I will keep on reading and hearing and asking God whether these things are so! Much respect for your years of studies and for putting it out there regardless of the possible reactions you have and probably will continue to receive. If nothing else, that proves the conviction that God has given you regarding what you're teaching! hereami, thanks for the feedback. It is helpful. I will take a look a the Jeremiah passage and see what I can see. Thanks for suggesting it. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 2:41:02 GMT -6
The Three Harvests - Resurrections and Assemblies - Part 1
And we’re off - We have established the three harvests feasts and that the feasts have multiple levels of fulfillment - we have covered the levels in bold so far. We are now hitting level 5 - the resurrections and assemblies.
1. They represent ages in Human History
2. They represent Critical events of God’s Calendar
3. They represent moments of key biblical teaching
4. They represent stages(or facets) in an individual’s salvation
5. They represent the “resurrections” and “assemblies” before the Lord
6. They represent the process of salvation of humanity
7. They define the Restoration process
I know that many are wanting to dip into eschatology and this part of Restoration will bring us into the ends times by its very nature, but my goal is still to keep us focused on Restoration and its process and administration. We will need to cover elements of end times in order to do this. And that might satisfy a few of you.
Exo 23:14 Three times thou shalt keep a feast unto me in the year.
Exo 23:15 Thou shalt keep the feast of unleavened bread: (thou shalt eat unleavened bread seven days, as I commanded thee, in the time appointed of the month Abib; for in it thou camest out from Egypt: and none shall appear before me empty:)
Exo 23:16 And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field: and the feast of ingathering, which is in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labours out of the field.
Exo 23:17 Three times in the year all thy males shall appear before the Lord GOD.
So let us notice that these harvests were a time when all males were to appear before the Lord God. So, without trying to beat around the bush too much, a natural conclusion here - if the feasts mean anything about harvesting of man - is that there are three harvests of man. If we had no doctrine to protect this would be clear. But we will want more detail and more witness from the word.
Tied into this we need to remember that harvesting is divided into three levels of harvest - First Fruits, Harvest, and Gleaning.
So let’s start tying some of this together and then I’ll need to add some scripture to back it up.
During any harvest, the first step is the gathering of first fruits. They were not harvested so to speak, but were gathered. Prior to the acceptance of these first fruits - the crop could not be harvested. Once the first fruits were accepted, they made the whole group acceptable.
Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
The harvest could then start - but the corners of the fields were to be left for the gleaners. These final portions of the crop would be harvested by local people who may not be able to afford food otherwise. See story of Ruth - which we will come back to in a future post.
There are three primary crops and three methods of harvesting each crop: Barley, Wheat, Grapes. Each of these crops represents a particular set of people.
Barley is harvested and processed early in the spring - right after passover. It is typically threshed, but did not require the same level of threshing that wheat required. It is then winnowed in the wind to let the chaff blow off the grain. Now, it is pretty easy to recognize who the first fruits of this harvest is - Jesus - He presented to the Father while the Priest where waving the barley in the temple on the day of First Fruits - or wave sheaf offering. So we know the first fruits of the barley, but who is the barley? We’ll see shortly.
Wheat is harvested later in the spring just after the Pentecost First Fruits were accepted. It also requires threshing, but is typically threshed much more harshly - sometimes even trampled by cattle to separate the waste elements from the grain. Then it also is winnowed. Wheat is the subject of a few threads on the forum right now - and I think you can see how God is raising awareness through the mouth of several witnesses. Now, each witness is seeing different elements and may draw different conclusions - but the message is clear - something is being told to the wheat. Who is the wheat? The bulk of Christianity.
Grapes are harvested in late summer or early fall, typically by the day of atonement so that the new wine could be poured out on each day of Tabernacles. Grapes were stomped on to separate the flesh from the wine. It is a messy process and looks a lot like bleeding - or even like:
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
Who are the grapes? The unbelievers.
Aren’t you glad that you are learning how to separate your flesh from your spirit now? During Pentecost? So you don’t have to have the Lord do it for you later? You have this right because you have had your Passover Experience - you are a believer. But not all believers are separating their flesh from their spirit, are they? We all know it is true, we see it every day, sometimes even in ourselves. You see, not all believers are taking advantage of Pentecost. Some have not desired to have their flesh burned off by the fiery word of God in their life. Some are remaining in their fleshly nature. They have had their Passover experience and they believe in Jesus. But they love their carnal life. They don’t love Him. They don’t serve Him. They don’t KNOW Him. Some of them may even be doing great works for Him - in their flesh. Some may be casting out demons or healing the sick, but he will say:
“Verily I say unto you, I know you not.”
This statement is in multiple parables about the kingdom, and we have been taught to believe it is speaking of the unsaved. We will need to go through these parables, but we will find out that most of them are talking about believers who have been relegated to a different crop - a different resurrection than they would have preferred. Though they could have achieved a better resurrection - they did not.
Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Phi 3 (whole chapter)
You see, each of us has the right to become a Son of God - the first fruits of Creation.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
The word “power” in verse 12 really should be the word Authority, or Right. Notice the tense of this verse - they have the authority to become the sons of God. He did not automatically make them sons of God. Notice then, what John goes into - the separation of birth from a fleshly birth to a spiritual birth, and then he hits it home with a statement about the Word of God. Sounds like hearing the word during Pentecost.
Some believers are in the barley harvest - some are in the wheat harvest. With all the talk of folks being excited about the Pentecost harvest - it is due to a lack of awareness about the harvest they miss if they are in the wheat harvest. Before there is a wheat harvest - there must be a barley harvest and the barley harvest has not happened yet. The barley consist of the Sons of God - or we can call them the Overcomers.
Note: The phrase Sons of God does not always refer to the barley. Sometimes it is used in other contexts or as a generic phrase. But it is pretty obvious when it is referring to the barley.
What does it mean to walk out pentecost with an eye toward tabernacles?
For several weeks now I have delayed in answering this question. I can answer this question now. It means that we take Pentecost seriously. We let the fire burn off the flesh. We learn how to hear God, discern His Word, and act upon it in Faith. This is why I am always eager to encourage those who are walking in faith to what they hear - even if I think they are wrong. They may be interpreting it all wrong, but that is what the learning process is all about. Acting in faith will often force us into a position of being a better listener the next time. But not acting in faith - is to not allow Pentecost to have its work within us. And if Pentecost is not burning off the work of the flesh, we are not preparing for the Tabernacles Church. Leaven represents sin - whatever is not of faith is sin - the leavening act of of leaven is stopped by fire (heat). If you want to be part of the barley harvest - it starts by allowing the Lord to fire you now so you can avoid it as much as possible later. Barley is the first fruits of the unleavened bread. Jesus said:
Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Joh 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal[during the age].
Joh 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
And there is much more - but this is getting long. Some take aways here - why is he talking about a grain of wheat? Because He is highlighting a Pentecost experience. By losing our love for our carnal life and letting the "old man" die, we shall have life during the age. In our old understanding we thought this meant, going to heaven when we die. But now we know better, now we know that Christ is talking about the age - which age? The Tabernacles Age. The kingdom Age. The Millennium. We can graduate from the Pentecost experience to the Tabernacle experience. We can graduate from wheat to barley.
Remember - all these harvests groups are saved. There will be a great and glorious resurrection for the wheat! And even the grapes will come into the true knowledge of Jesus Christ and His salvation.
Ok - I am going to offer much more verification for these concepts from a lot of scripture - depending on how much you all ask for. Maybe this will just click with you all and we can move on. But in the meantime - you might want to read the story of Gideon and the 300 man army. We will start our analysis there. And, if you pre-read it, perhaps you will see the symbols and start putting it together yourself. There are quite a few harvest symbols in this story and some of them are really mixed up and odd. Which makes it fun.
That will likely be my next post - but I wanted to push another point home before we finish this post. Since I referenced Rev 14 above, let's finish that thought.
Having said that - The topic of Chapter 14 is the three harvests / gatherings.
First we have the 144,000 as the barley harvest:
Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
Then we have the wheat harvest:
Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
And the grape harvest brings up the close of the chapter:
Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
But this is not the only place these harvests/resurrections are mentioned. At some point we will start pinning together the passages that further describe each of these harvests. And we will come back and look at Rev 14 much closer as well. Notice though, just cause it is so juicy - pardon the pun - which angel instructed the grape harvest to start? The one with power over fire! Oh, don't you love it when a plan comes together!?
Well? How many of you have I lost now? If you can get past this point, then we really only have one more difficult point after that. Then we’ll be home free!
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Dec 14, 2017 8:31:08 GMT -6
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Um, this needs way further explaining. So me, being a woman and not being a virgin, but feeling like I am truly walking in the spirit, especially of late...Are these the only in the Barley Harvest?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 8:49:32 GMT -6
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. Um, this needs way further explaining. So me, being a woman and not being a virgin, but feeling like I am truly walking in the spirit, especially of late...Are these the only in the Barley Harvest? I will expound upon this topic much more - but I wanted to immediately return a note of comfort - this verse, IN NO WAY, disqualifies women and non-virgins from the barley harvest.This is not speaking of physical virginity and there is very good evidence that both men and women are part of the 144,000. You will find this study fun when I can post it. Once again - we must start to see prophecy from the spiritual side - not the physical - it is the physical thinking that has caused so much confusion about these last day. Also, and this is a big also, we need to realize that the number may not actually be 144,000. God uses numbers to represent groups and meanings. The key here is 144. A number in scripture has a root, and then it has multiples. The multiples determine severity, longevity, group scope, etc. But the root number identifies the group or topic. This is an in depth study in and of itself, but I only mention it to say, the key is 144 - which represents the Son's of God. The 1000 multiplayer simply sets the scope to be creation wide. So this would mean, all the barley harvest from Adam to whomever is last in the barley. Having said that - it could also literally mean 144,000. So we'll keep our minds open to either option. We will look much closer at the 144,000 in a later post. Thanks for asking this question - sometime I forget to clarify key points! |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 9:16:08 GMT -6
Another quick note - When I say things like - "They are not taking advantage of Pentecost" I need to clarify that more.
Many of us have not known the terms to use or understood the process of the feasts and how they work in our lives - this does not mean anything to God. He doesn't care if we call it Pentecost, or Sanctification, or walking in the spirit. He is not a God who is hung up on our understanding.
So, your entire life could have been walking in the light of his truth and proceeding toward the barley harvest - you would never have called it that. But that was what was happening anyway. So, this new knowledge merely helps you to understand better what has been taking place and perhaps allows you to explain it to others - but we should not feel that we weren't walking the right way simply because we didn't have words to express our experiences.
This is another note meant to comfort each of you. If, our personal understanding carried weight in the accomplishment of the task, then it would be putting us back under works. The work is accomplished by Jesus and He has enough understanding for all of us.
The understanding, rather, puts you in a position to teach it to others and find the truths in scripture a bit easier to decipher. Make sense?
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Dec 14, 2017 10:34:21 GMT -6
Many are trying to understand and with a prayerful, faithful heart about the end times. The ones I know who are this way have not demonstrated any red flags that they are off in their interpretations. Their fruits are evident of their walk. I find them helpful teachers for me.
Then as I say this sentence, that is me in my fleshly understanding of it. We are either very close to a change from this present age or we have a very long time to go because of how messed up the entire Church has dicipled its flock if nearly everyone of us has missed the Restoration message, truly distorted what walking Faith is really about, and God's Plan in general.
But, realizing everything is part of God's plan then for some reason he wanted a gigantic number of Christians to be misled (with a potential of "servants", ones I see as servants, falling away or being deceived). I am referring to those who are watching with earnest, not the Christian who is completely unaware that there is even a return of Jesus.
So you have Noah and Lot stories where few were spared but destruction came upon many. Is this a rapture message or is it a Barley Harvest message? Is the rapture of the saints a barley harvest? sounds like it is a wheat harvest, but not the wine harvest. But are any in the Barley harvest?
I truly understand the winnowing process metaphor. Are you suggesting that some of these faithful, uninformed Christ-following Watchers/students of end time prophecies, have the potential to fall away? In a nut-shell, all to experience the full wrath of God the we read about in Revelation?
I equate the Jew with Israel. What is the difference and where did they become different?
Ok, there I said it. I have to give my gut reaction so I am sure it is reeking of my fleshly desires, not of my spirit. Others reading this thread may not have had the time I have had to sort out the information as they have kids to tend, or are at work and their time to soak in this thread is limited. I immediately searched First fruits in bible hub. Then I decided to go to the infamous places in the Gospels of "end times" (maybe this term needs to be explained in and of itself, like the 3 harvests). I was in matt 24 and Luke 17. That is where I was reminded of Noah and Lot..
Sk, no worries here. I am digesting your points. I have to reply ad lib so you can get the effect of my emotions. Now, my little border collie has been in prelabor since last night, and my attention will divert, yet this is why I am logged on Unsealed for so long. I am sitting here with dog, Bible & Computer.
Maranatha!!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 11:32:02 GMT -6
I truly appreciate your candor and being willing to put out your thoughts and feelings as you experience them. It helps me know someone is reading, while also what thoughts are occurring.
I hope to clear something up that I may have said in a way that I did not mean to: I am not questioning the heart or the devotion of the prophecy teachers. Not at all. And certainly they can not all be lumped together by many means. But we have all grown up in an time that is tainted by doctrines that, even without us knowing it, shape our interpretation of scriptures.
Isa 42:18 Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see.
Isa 42:19 Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD'S servant?
Isa 42:20 Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.
Isa 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.
Isa 42:22 But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore.
His servant has been blinded and He is the one who blinded us. But look at that scripture - The Lord is pleased with their blindness for His righteousness' sake. And then check out the last part of the last verse - there are none that says - RESTORE!
Well, that will be changing soon!
The barley harvest can be thought of as the Rapture, if we use that nomenclature. What most of us have been taught about the rapture applies to the barley harvest. Like many things, we are expecting it one way - it will happen another way. We are expecting a simultaneous resurrection of the dead body of christ and a rapture of the living body of christ all in one moment and in one package. But scripture seems to point in a different direction. There is a bit more process to the whole thing. There is a marking of first fruits, there is a harvest, there is a gleaning. There are two sets of first fruits (barley and wheat) there is one set of drink offerings (grapes). Each in their appointed time. And there are other scriptures that we will look at to help consolidate this idea so that we are not just using the harvest metaphor for all our ideas.
I am saying the rapture is a bit more complex than we have considered. We do this with salvation, too. Get saved, go to heaven. As we have documented, it is more complex than than. We do this with ET, too - believe before death or go to ET. But, once again, it is a bit more complex than that. We like to break things down to keep things easy, but God has a bit more of plan in hand than we have considered.
Threshing separates the chaff, stock, and grain. Winnowing - a work of the wind or spirit - blows away the chaff. The chaff are not people falling away. The chaff is sin falling away. The people are wheat or barley or grapes. In the case of the grains, when the spirit blows our way it separates the flesh(chaff) from the true new man(grain). I cannot say who is barley and who is wheat. But I can say that each will have it's own time to be brought into the kingdom. The barley must be harvested first and is actually the first fruits of the entire creation:
Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
The wheat will come next and will be threshed and winnowed, but will not be stomped like the grapes.
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Mat 3:12 Whose fan[winnowing] is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.[removal of sin]
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
This is a timing issue not a judgement issue. With the unbelievers means - at the same time as the unbelievers. Not in the same judgement. The late wheat harvest is very close to the grape harvest and as it turns out will occur at the same time:
Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
This is a combined "harvest" of wheat and grapes. But they will be processed differently according to their crop type. By the way, this is what some of the other threads are picking up on. This is why there is a focus right now on the 50+50 or the 99 or etc. Because there is a disconnect between the first fruits of Pentecost and the late harvest of Pentecost near the Grape harvest. This is also why it is somewhat miraculous that God has brought about several witnesses to this idea. The two fifties represent Pentecost and Jubilee = each a 49+1 count. One is the earnest of the spirit, but still leavened - wheat(Pentecost). The leaven is removed with the fullness of the spirit - wheat(Jubilee). But this wheat will not be raptured before the barley - it cannot for the first fruits of creation must be harvested first.
Obviously, I am trying to give you quick answers to complicated questions - this is dangerous, because I'd like to lay it all out so that you can see the wealth of scriptural support - and I will as we continue - but I also want to be responsive to your questions and concerns.
They are completely different people and kingdoms. They have always been different, but the physical separation was after the reign of Solomon when the two kingdoms split - North and South. Israel and Judah. This was a physical picture of a spiritual reality. There is a lot of history on this both in and out of scripture. But more importantly - they also represent different groups within the church in a spiritual sense. Understanding these unique positions, names, labels, tribes, etc is very important to understanding what prophecies are meant for what group of physical or spiritual people. We tend to see "Israel" in a prophecy and attach it to the modern nation of Israel. But usually, that is not even who is prophesied about or to. As a matter of fact, Modern Israel does not even have the right to use the name Israel according to God. They are not represented by the sons of Joseph - the ones who own the birthright. I will get into this topic as it is very relevant to what is happening now in the world. But I need to finish the harvest elements first. So many things I need to cover and I just can't get to them all at once, but wish I could.
I understand. I knew this section would create some havoc. Like I said, we only have one difficult topic left. I really have so many directions we could go to try and explain it all. I'm not sure which I will take, but it will take a few posts to get through explaining and justifying these positions from scripture. Once again - I appreciate your willingness to open up.
Do you have any suggestions on direction?
Hope your little friend does well in her delivery!
SK
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Dec 14, 2017 12:56:11 GMT -6
Very much understand your comments above. I can not help myself to apply a touch of logic (could be the wrong word choice here) in viewing the overall Church of this day, and those that are alive in their fleshly bodies now, and the events that we are seeing unfold, and are they really the events that we (watchmen) are making them out to be? I also have not forgotten those who are asleep before us Believing and Walking in Faith before their bodies died. and I have a bunch more questions in regards to someone's physical death, but for later... Well, unless someone else has a concern of something so far, I would like you to expound on the Barley Harvest. We have a very active thread going on and you gave credit to the witnesses that have put forth some Pentecostal count.. dennislwatson and witness1 have some good stuff coming forth. But I am eager and groaning to understand the timeline CORRECTLY if that is even possible! If the way I have been seeing the timeline is off, I want to be directed by the Holy Spirit as to where I need more understanding on the matter. You for sure are helping as I have not rejected in my mind, but I am wrestling. Does that make sense? I have been told to leave my dog alone for 2 hours and see if she gets a going here...and so I will be lurking the halls of Unsealed... |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 16:45:55 GMT -6
The Three Harvests - Resurrections and Assemblies - Part 2
The barley harvest - Part 1
Let’s start looking at some barley stories from scripture.
2Ki 4:42 And there came a man from Baalshalisha, and brought the man of God bread of the firstfruits, twenty loaves of barley, and full ears of corn in the husk thereof. And he said, Give unto the people, that they may eat.
2Ki 4:43 And his servitor said, What, should I set this before an hundred men? He said again, Give the people, that they may eat: for thus saith the LORD, They shall eat, and shall leave thereof.
2Ki 4:44 So he set it before them, and they did eat, and left thereof, according to the word of the LORD.
An example of feeding many with little. This is a concept of the Son’s of God, they bring the word of God to the masses. Notice the loaves were barley.
Joh 6:3 And Jesus went up into a mountain, and there he sat with his disciples.
Joh 6:4 And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.
Joh 6:5 When Jesus then lifted up his eyes, and saw a great company come unto him, he saith unto Philip, Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat?
Joh 6:6 And this he said to prove him: for he himself knew what he would do.
Joh 6:7 Philip answered him, Two hundred pennyworth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may take a little.
Joh 6:8 One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, saith unto him,
Joh 6:9 There is a lad here, which hath five barley loaves, and two small fishes: but what are they among so many?
Joh 6:10 And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand.
Joh 6:11 And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would.
Joh 6:12 When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost.
Joh 6:13 Therefore they gathered them together, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves, which remained over and above unto them that had eaten.
Same principle - notice the mention of passover so we know the connection and the loaves again - were barley. Notice the bread was distributed to the disciples to present to the masses. The word of God through the son’s of God to the masses. Also notice that there was much left over. The number 12 represents God’s governmental system. They way he administers leadership. The barley are called to rule and reign in the kingdom. There was much more available to feed even more people. They let nothing go to waste - nothing was lost. But through the breaking of the barley - the food was multiplied.
Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
This is a continuation of this story - bread continuing to be the topic, likely due to his recent miracle. Notice his purpose again? To give His flesh for the life of the world. Do you believe He accomplished His purpose? Notice also that just as the body of Christ was broken so were the loaves of barley. This is the pattern of denying our selves and taking up our cross. This is the pattern of overcoming because we loved not our life unto death. In between, theses verses, Jesus says three times that He will raise him up on the last day. This is a pattern for the timing of the barley harvest.
Couple tidbits just for fun:
The Hebrew word for barley is sehoraw. Strong’s Concordance says that the feminine form means “plant,” and the masculine form means “grain.” This is one of several indictors that the barley harvest is both male and female.
How much is barley worth?
Lev 27:16 And if a man shall sanctify unto the LORD some part of a field of his possession, then thy estimation shall be according to the seed thereof: an homer of barley seed shall be valued at fifty shekels of silver.
There is our fifty again. Two outpourings of the Holy Spirit - the earnest at passover - the fullness at Jubilee (Atonement)
Now - let’s take a closer look at the verse in James:
Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
So, hidden here is another Restoration truth. You see, there are no first fruits if there is no harvest. One does not only harvest the first fruits, for once the first fruits are approved - the harvest continues until the crop is fully harvested. Do you see the hidden message? If we, his sons, are the first fruits - that means there is more to harvest!
Now a traditional reading of this, would be that the Us is Christians. I think it is referring to the Sons. But still, if we say Christians - and they are the first fruits - then who is the rest of the harvest? Remember the first fruits are a small token of the full harvest. First fruits of His creatures? The rest of His creatures are the harvest! But these creatures are unbelievers! Yes, but they will believe and will be saved.
Overcomers:
Another name for the Son’s of God is the Overcomers. This especially comes out in Revelation. What has happened though, is an excusing away of the meaning of overcoming. Because of the tension created by the close connection in our perception between our salvation and our rapture, we have explained away some pretty obvious sentences in order to make them not say what it seems they are saying. The logic is understandable: since we are not appointed to wrath and since we are saved by grace, we must not be here during the “tribulation” and therefore any verse that looks like works is involved in keeping us from the "tribulation" must be explained to mean something else. Because otherwise our rapture, and therefore our salvation, are works based.
We see the same theme over and over, we are not talking about salvation. So we do not need to explain away the obvious meaning of many verses that talk about overcoming. And even further - we are not saved so we can go to heaven, or avoid tribulation. We are saved from our sins and from the grip of sin and death. {We still need to cover that in a future post - what are we saved from?}
Let's look at some verses:
Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
So, with:
a short sighted understanding of salvation, and
an unnecessary attachment of rapture to salvation, and
the belief that somehow we are supposed to avoid tribulation
which is all generated from a false belief in ET or Annihilation, and
further supported by a false understanding of dispensationalism
we explain away the very passages that tell us key information about the Son’s of God and the result of their actions. Effectively, we erase the barley from our understanding. None of this is intentional or done through bad motives. It just comes from misunderstanding, and most of it comes from a foundation of ET and Annihilation.
Let’s take a look:
1Jn 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
There is a very clear pattern here. The one who overcomes is distinct from the one who does not. This is not a comparison of Christians and non Christians. It is a comparison between Son’s of God (barley) and wheat. And the result is access to the kingdom, the throne, the authority, etc. Because the Son’s of God will rule and reign with Him in His kingdom during the Tabernacles Age. As we start to go through each of the Kingdom parables you will notice very similar patterns throughout. All based on works, usually talking about two types of believers. One gains authority in the Kingdom, one is not invited in, or loses authority.
Note: I’ll remind everyone that to rule and reign with Christ means to become a servant to all. The purpose of the iron rod is not to beat people with it. The iron rod represents authority - not whipping. It means that you are the rightful ruler. You are to be priests and kings with Christ. Your mission will be to bring in the rest of the harvest - starting with the wheat, who will then join your number, and then finishing with the grapes - until all are brought into the righteousness of Christ.
This overcoming is done by Christ - as I have commented many times - the work is done by Christ - but we can resist this work for a time by not walking in faith - we can fail our Pentecost testing. We can prevent our graduation to the barley harvest by not resting in Him, by not hearing his voice, by not denying our selves, by not walking in the faith of what we hear. But we are not talking about doing acts of goodness - we are talking about walking according to the word we hear. This is why some verses appear to say it is Christ in us that overcomes the world while others seem to place the full pressure on us. Christ, in us, brings us to overcome, but only as we see him as the total source of life and see no source of life in our flesh.
Of course all will eventually enter the kingdom, but not at the same time. Each in his order.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order ....
We have much more to go here. Next we will take a look at Gideon and what he can teach us about the harvests - particularly the barley.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 19:16:04 GMT -6
The Three Harvests - Resurrections and Assemblies - Part 3
The barley harvest - Part 2
Ok. Let’s now dig into the Gideon story of Judges 6-8.
The story of Gideon gives us a picture of the barley company and some of its attributes. It also shows us how the barley will relate to the wheat and the grapes. Israel was in a difficult situation with the Midianites due to rebellion against God. When they finally repented and called out to God, God sent them a prophet. When the prophet spoke and the people heard the word of God and repented - God then sent an angel to deal with their situation. As the story goes, when the angels showed up we find this:
Jdg 6:11 Then the angel of the LORD came and sat under the oak that was in Ophrah, which belonged to Joash the Abiezrite as his son Gideon was beating out wheat in the wine press in order to save it from the Midianites.
So this should sit funny with us, now that we are starting to play with our new tools. Is this a Pentecost story? Or a Tabernacles story? Why would Gideon be threshing wheat in a winepress? But it gets even more tangled. The angel and Gideon talk a bit…I won’t put all the scripture in this post, but you can follow along in the bible. The angel calls Gideon a valiant warrior and says the Lord is with him. And then Gideon asks a question we hear all the time - If God is with us - why are all these bad things happening? Why are we in tribulation?
Jdg 6:14 The LORD looked at him and said, "Go in this your strength and deliver Israel from the hand of Midian. Have I not sent you?"
The angel says, Have I not sent you? It appears this is the first Gideon has heard of this. So - did he not hear God earlier? Gideon says he is the youngest son of small house - and as it turns out - the house has altars to false Gods / Doctrines in it. Whenever we see a house or tower we should start thinking denomination.
Jdg 6:16 But the LORD said to him, "Surely I will be with you, and you shall defeat Midian as one man."
But God says, I will be with you (God with you = Emmanuel) This is the second time God has said this to Gideon. And also, God says, you will defeat Midian as “one man.” This is the plural manchild of Rev 12. This is the corporate body of Emmanuel. This is the Son’s of God.
Gideon wants a sign and so the Angels says he will stay until Gideon return with an offering. The offering he brings is one of unleavened bread. Ah.. A third feast enters the picture. So now we have Unleavened bread, Pentecost, and Tabernacles wound up in one story.
Jdg 6:19 Then Gideon went in and prepared a young goat and unleavened bread from an ephah of flour; he put the meat in a basket and the broth in a pot, and brought them out to him under the oak and presented them.
A touch of fire and the offering was consumed - accepted by the Lord.
Jdg 6:21 Then the angel of the LORD put out the end of the staff that was in his hand and touched the meat and the unleavened bread; and fire sprang up from the rock and consumed the meat and the unleavened bread. Then the angel of the LORD vanished from his sight.
Jdg 6:22 When Gideon saw that he was the angel of the LORD, he said, "Alas, O Lord GOD! For now I have seen the angel of the LORD face to face."
Jdg 6:23 The LORD said to him, "Peace to you, do not fear; you shall not die."
Immediately, the fire and knowledge of the word of God being spoken to Gideon brings back that old fear - hear God and die. But God tells him, don’t believe those silly tales - you shall not die. But God did ask him to tear down the alter to false gods and doctrines in his father’s house.
We need to put our spiritual eyes on and see what is happening so far. We don’t quite know who Gideon is yet. He could be barley, wheat, or grape. But it seems like he is barley, because he offering was unleavened. Also, we will find out later that, indeed, he is barley. So then, we see here that he is participating in the threshing of the wheat somehow in conjunction with the grapes. But when we see this juxtaposition, we are really dealing with wheat that could become barley - because barley reigns during the Tabernacles age.
Let me do that a little slower - Tabernacle harvest represents grapes - but Tabernacle Reign is for the barley. So when we see wheat and Tabernacles mixed - we realize that we are dealing with wheat that could go either way - could be come barley, or could stay wheat and be raised to “receive their portion with the unbelievers.” This would mean they did not fulfill Pentecost yet.
Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
I know this is a little confusing, but we’ll push through for now.
We see that after Gideon heard the word of God and then acted in faith on the word of God, he received a new name. Keep that in mind.
Jdg 6:32 Therefore on that day he[his dad] named him[Gideon] Jerubbaal, that is to say, "Let Baal contend against him," because he had torn down his altar.
Well, the next thing that Gideon needed to do was take down Midian. Because, God had sent him, remember. So Gideon collected an army and the Lord showed up and say, nope too many people. God did not want Israel to think they had delivered themselves.
Jdg 7:2 The LORD said to Gideon, "The people who are with you are too many for Me to give Midian into their hands, for Israel would become boastful, saying, 'My own power has delivered me.'
Barley says Amen! to God and acts upon the word they hear from the Lord.
So those that were afraid were sent home. 22,000 our of 10,000. Another cut and we were down to 300 men.
Jdg 7:8 So the 300 men took the people's provisions and their trumpets into their hands. And Gideon sent all the other men of Israel, each to his tent, but retained the 300 men; and the camp of Midian was below him in the valley.
There were at least 120,000 Midianites, and perhaps beyond number!
Jdg 7:12 Now the Midianites and the Amalekites and all the sons of the east were lying in the valley as numerous as locusts; and their camels were without number, as numerous as the sand on the seashore.
So Gideon asked for a 4th test. The first was the angel accepting the offering, then we skipped the two fleece experiments. Now God said, ok, Go into the Midian camp and spy. So Gideon sneaks close enough to overhear the Midianites talking.
Jdg 7:13 When Gideon came, behold, a man was relating a dream to his friend. And he said, "Behold, I had a dream; a loaf of barley bread was tumbling into the camp of Midian, and it came to the tent and struck it so that it fell, and turned it upside down so that the tent lay flat."
Jdg 7:14 His friend replied, "This is nothing less than the sword of Gideon the son of Joash, a man of Israel; God has given Midian and all the camp into his hand."
He had faith in God’s faithfulness and prepared for “battle.”
Jdg 7:15 When Gideon heard the account of the dream and its interpretation, he bowed in worship. He returned to the camp of Israel and said, "Arise, for the LORD has given the camp of Midian into your hands."
Jdg 7:16 He divided the 300 men into three companies, and he put trumpets and empty pitchers into the hands of all of them, with torches inside the pitchers.
Jdg 7:17 He said to them, "Look at me and do likewise. And behold, when I come to the outskirts of the camp, do as I do.
Jdg 7:18 "When I and all who are with me blow the trumpet, then you also blow the trumpets all around the camp and say, 'For the LORD and for Gideon.'"
Jdg 7:19 So Gideon and the hundred men who were with him came to the outskirts of the camp at the beginning of the middle watch, when they had just posted the watch; and they blew the trumpets and smashed the pitchers that were in their hands.
Jdg 7:20 When the three companies blew the trumpets and broke the pitchers, they held the torches in their left hands and the trumpets in their right hands for blowing, and cried, "A sword for the LORD and for Gideon!"
He said Arise! Our theme for a few months now has been Arise! Shine! along with the rest of Isa 60.
The Midian army was defeated.
So Gideon received the promise of God - and in so doing, prophesies how the barley will do the same:
Each man was given a trumpet and a torch inside a clay jar. At the given signal - they would sound their trumpets and break their earthen jars and the light, hidden within them, would break forth. In the jar, they did not receive much air - but once in the open air they could shine brightly.
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
The trumpet symbolizes the resurrection of the dead on the Feast of Trumpets. The clay jars are our bodies. The light inside is Emmanuel. Our new creature. The sons of God. When the trumpet sounds and the dead rise, the next phase will be for the Sons of God to be manifested. Their light will shine forth as the barley is broken and they hit the air.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
We see this in Moses and Jesus as well - where each were transfigured. Moses after 40 days on the mountain. 40 jubilees of Pentecost? Jesus after 6 days. 6000 years?
We see this again here:
2Co 4:6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
2Co 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves;
We break a little at a time each day in our Pentecost walk and that leads us to readiness for the moment when we shall shatter this earthen vessel and break forth into the light.
There is more to the story though - because Gideon was someone who was working with the wheat. And trying to bring them into Tabernacles. So he went to the men of Succoth and Penuel and asked them to help in his attack. This was before his force was limited to 300. These men refused to help in the fight. They did not want to act upon the word of God that Gideon was bringing them.
Succoth is also a symbol for Tabernacles. It is what we build during our Tabernacles feast celebration - a temporary booth. These men either didn’t believe the word of God, or they were disobedient to it. So now, having not been part of the conquering of the promise. These men were needing to be dealt with - by the barley Gideon.
At Penuel, we had a tower, a denomination. This represents those that are stuck in their doctrines and separating themselves from those with other doctrines. Each in our own tower. So Gideon spanked the leaders of Succoth with thorns and tore down the tower at Penuel.
This demonstrates the meaning of threshing the wheat in the winepress - his chastisement and correction of the wheat that was not ready for Tabernacles demonstrates in the physical, what the barley will do in the spiritual after they achieve their inheritance.
There is a bit more we can learn from Gideon and I went through this very fast - but we'll leave it there for now.
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Post by hereami on Dec 15, 2017 0:34:23 GMT -6
Well now, that clears up a whole bunch of questions that you "just don't ask"! Thank you SK!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2017 6:58:30 GMT -6
Well now, that clears up a whole bunch of questions that you "just don't ask"! Thank you SK! Well that was an ominous comment. 😀 How do these answers sit with your spirit? of course there is much more evidence to support that we can still get to. We we will need to decide, as a group, do you want more support or are you all in agreement enough to move unto other topics. Still lots we could discuss, but also still lots of scripture we could use to deeper "prove out" these concepts. |
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