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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2017 13:19:52 GMT -6
Good point mike . Also, there is an assumption that Universal Reconciliation is new - but was research done to determine that, indeed, it is not new? Through out the last 1900 years, various forms of Universal Reconciliation have been taught - right from the very beginning. I can put a post together on this at some point just to show the truth of it. But I have never found the argument that powerful. Great doctrines, both true and false, have risen and fallen and risen throughout the church age. Should we believe them based on who else believed them - or when? Or should we trust the word of God though scripture and revelation to understand the truth? Indeed, the solid teaching of the doctrine of Grace was not well taught for 1000 years! Notice anything missing? To say that any new idea must be discarded - because it is new, is bad theology. To claim Universal Reconciliation is new, is bad history. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2017 13:24:09 GMT -6
I do have a question about the application of 2Tim 3:4. Is it possible the fable is ET as the translators (from Latin to Greek was it?) was botched and ran with for such a long time it became the "truth"? Isnt that how lies become true anyway? This came to my mind the other night as well Mike. Churches teach doctrine for so long, that many become accustomed to it and can't depart from it because they believe it to be true. Imagine the bombshell when early century thinkers discovered the world was round and not flat. Try breaking that false-truth (some are coming back to that lie). I commented earlier that our carnal nature may have created hell, because we want to see those who have harmed us and not taken the free gift from our loving God, deserve to die as our "justice." A question that could be answered is what is God's justice? The first are last and the last first. God's ways are not our ways. God is our King, and humanity demanded a human king. Jesus even raised the bar and the human law (through Moses) by taking it to a whole new spiritual level. To lust is to commit adultery, and to hate is to murder. How much greater is God's justice, grace, and love than ours! Filthy rags I have...but we've gained the righteousness of God in Christ. Sorry for the ramblings... Not sure if you have an answer SK of what God's justice truly means compared to what Christian tradition has assigned as God's "justice" (i.e. ET and Annihilation). By all means miketaft - please ramble! I will be covering Justice and Mercy as a distinct post at some point. Clearly, ET and Annihilation cannot accomplish justice or mercy. When we deal with God's Law/Character we see that both the law breaker and the victim have rights. Therefore mercy and justice must be distributed according to the Law in order to be true. More later.... |
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Post by mike on Dec 7, 2017 13:30:11 GMT -6
you're not rambling MikeTaft, youre making sense! i like that thought process in the bold. As if it were that ET were in fact true we should wish that on anyone!? Dont we all deserve that!!! This is what happens when we measure ourselves (self-righteous) against what we perceive others to hold (righteously). We put ourselves on pedestals, which are built on sand and the wave is coming! I know because I was once this way and it hurts me to think I was that way and even more when its now done against me. Have Mercy Lord! Again a great point here as when we examine ourselves we need to consider our inward intents and thoughts! I like James 2:10 for those who think they are "better Christians" than others |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Dec 7, 2017 18:55:08 GMT -6
Mom (@bsg-Mom) for those reading... She and I have been heavily discussing this thread, namely , because of me. She is a Scarborough/Begley/Faraq fan and has a hard time spending time reading everything here, so gets held up in Kingdom of YouTube... Anyways, she just called me and said this: "What you are saying Babs, is that God is operating in one giant Chiasm. The central part being Christ death and resurrection. The final chapter is ALL things returning to Pre-Apple Eating state.."
She was willing to cede that ET is not holding Biblically. However, she is kinda holding on to Conditionalism (as explained by our dear Gary). You will find that article link when you go to the Lie of Universalism thread. I was there, SK, I took a look at the comments. Here is one thing I notice right off the bat! Many there demonstrating a teachable spirit! Amen to that!
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Dec 7, 2017 18:59:11 GMT -6
as excited I am to see what you put forth regarding the Harvests, I hope you start with the Lake of Fire... Mom also wanted to contribute that she could see the parallels of what God did to the Israelites who wandered around the desert for a time period and were not led to the Promised Land right away.
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Post by cwood85 on Dec 7, 2017 22:17:11 GMT -6
Chiming in on the ramblings. A verse that has always stuck out to me is Numbers 11:1 NASB
1. Now the people became like those who complain of adversity in the hearing of the Lord; and when the Lord heard it, His anger kindled, and the fire of the Lord burned among them and consumed some of the outskirts of the camp.
Or the KJV of the same verse:
1. And when the people complained, it displeased the Lord: and the Lord heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the Lord burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp.
The very first time I read this I thought whoa! God was obviously tired of not being trusted or appreciated. Even after all He had done, delivering the Jews from Egypt, protecting them, and providing food, because they did not trust Him and rely on Him, they wanted more. But after reading through this study of yours @silentknight, so much more of this makes even more sense. Yes he was wrathful and singed some off (oh the imagery in my head), but they never HEARD Him. This is one of those passages that make me envious as I read it. HE WAS RIGHT THERE WITH THEM IN PERSON, IN THEIR PRESENCE DAY AND NIGHT AND THEY SHUT HIM OUT AND LUSTED FOR MORE. Even in thundering, fire, and smoke, fire column by night and pillar of wind by day, food and water provided, it wasn't enough.
Conditionalism was introduced to me during the summer. I am weighing this with that and seeking scripture regarding both.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2017 12:39:53 GMT -6
Friends, I'm being delayed by a migraine. Once this thing breaks, I'll start up again.
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Post by MikeTaft on Dec 8, 2017 12:46:23 GMT -6
Friends, I'm being delayed by a migraine. Once this thing breaks, I'll start up again. Praying for your healing brother! |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2017 22:19:24 GMT -6
A word on Conditionalism
Since a couple of you have brought up conditionalism, I thought I'd say a short word on it here.
Almost everything that we have said against ET in this thread so far also applies to annihilation. Conditionalsim is just a special form of annihilation but the end result is still annihilation. The end result is still defeat for Christ.
Annihilation may seem a bit more merciful, but remember that restoration is not only about mercy but also about justice. It is not only dealing with how to punish the wicked but how to restore creation and reconcile it back in to God. God does not punish for the sake of pain. He punishes to teach righteousness with the end goal of restoration.
For those who were contemplating Endless Torment - Annihilation may feel like a nice compromise. But we are not looking for a compromise, we are looking for truth. And let us not kid ourselves into feeling that it would somehow be just to annihilate all those who never heard the name of Jesus because the Father did not tell them the name of Jesus. And then after putting to death, billions of sinners, claim victory over death. Our God is better than that - the bible tells us so - your spirit tells you so.
Remember also that restoration isn't an option, restoration is the law. Annihilation would break the law of God and cause God to move against his own character. That is simply not going to happen.
The main argument that conditionalism brings to light is that the soul is not naturally immortal. I agree with this. The soul is mortal and it must be endowed with eternal life in order for it to become immortal.
The scriptures are clear that all will receive life in Christ the only question is timing and process.
I will be continuing with phase 2 now. Hopefully, I'll get something posted tonight or tomorrow.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2017 1:45:10 GMT -6
Lake of Fire - Man’s View
We have covered Hell and shown that scriptural Hell can never be used to teach ET or Annihilation. And we took a brief look at the lake of fire. We will take a closer look now, but first, I need to take you on a journey of disgust.
Have you ever noticed that when it comes to the book where the Lake of Fire is mentioned, The Revelation, we Christians are willing to make almost anything figurative or allegorical - lamp stands, beasts, stars falling from heaven, locusts, swords coming out of mouths, you name it - but not fire. No Fire must always be real, literal, physical and the hotter the better. Something is wrong with us, something very broken inside - Man loves the idea of torturing sinners. So he pretends that God invented that idea - but no, this a doctrine of man:
Description of the Pains of Hell
Fray Luis De Granada 1588
“There will the condemned in cruel rage and despair turn their fury against God and themselves, gnawing their flesh with their mouth, breaking their teeth with gnashing, furiously tearing themselves with their nails, and everlastingly blaspheming against the judge…Oh wretched tongues that will speak no word save blasphemy! Oh miserable ears that will hear no sound but groans! Oh unhappy eyes that will see nothing but agonies! Oh tortured bodies that will have no refreshment but flames…We are terrified when we hear of executioners—scourging men, disjointing them, dismembering, tearing them in pieces, burning them with plates of red-hot metal. But these things are but a jest, a shadow compared with the torments of the next life.” Sermons 1. 72 (Translated by Rev. Orby Shipley.)
John Bunyan
Set case you should take a man, and tie him to a stake, and with red hot Pincers pinch off his flesh by little pieces for two or three years together, and at last, when the poor man cryes out for ease and help, the tormenters answer, Nay but besides all this you must be handled worse. We will serve you thus these 20 years together, and after that we will fill your mangled body full of scalding lead, and run you through with a red hot spit, would this not be lamentable?...But he that goes to hell shall suffer ten thousand times worse torments then these, and yet shall never be quite dead under them . – “A Few Sighs From Hell” or “The Groans of a damned Soul…” 1658)
Reverend J. Furniss
"Little child, if you go to hell there will be a devil at your side to strike you. He will go on striking you every minute for ever and ever without stopping. The first stroke will make your body as bad as the body of Job, covered, from head to foot, with sores and ulcers. The second stroke will make your body twice as bad as the body of Job. The third stroke will make your body three times as bad as the body of Job. The fourth stroke will make your body four times as bad as the body of Job. How, then, will your body be after the devil has been striking it every moment for a hundred million of years without stopping? Perhaps at this moment, seven o'clock in he evening, a child is just going into hell. To morrow evening, at seven o'clock, go and knock at the gates of hell and ask what the child is doing. The devils will go and look. They will come back again and say, the child is burning. Go in week and ask what the child is doing; you will get the same answer, it is burning; Go in a year and asks the same answer comes it is burning. Go in a million of years and ask the same question, the answer is just the same--it is burning. So, if you go for ever and ever, you will always get the same answer--it is burning in the fire.” ---The Sight of Hell (A Catholic book for children….Quoted from Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin)
"The fifth dungeon is the red hot oven. The little child is in the red hot oven. Hear how it screams to come out; see how it turns and twists itself about in the fire. It beats its head against the roof of the oven. It stamps its little feet on the floor." (The Sight of Hell Quoted from Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin)
John Calvin:
"There are babies a span long in hell."
Jonathan Edwards (Newspapers reported people leaving his sermons and committing suicide from the fear he instilled in them.)
"The world will probably be converted into a great lake or liquid globe of fire, in which the wicked shall be overwhelmed, which will always be in tempest, in which they shall be tossed to and fro, having no rest day and night, vast waves and billows of fire continually rolling over their heads, of which they shall forever be full of a quick sense within and without; their heads, their eyes, their tongues, their hands, their feet, their loins and their vitals, shall forever be full of a flowing, melting fire, fierce enough to melt the very rocks and elements; and also, they shall eternally be full of the most quick and lively sense to feel the torments; not for one minute, not for one day, not for one age, not for two ages, not for a hundred ages, nor for ten thousand millions of ages, one after another, but forever and ever, without any end at all, and never to be delivered."
Jeremy Taylor of the Church of England
"The bodies of the damned shall be crowded together in hell, like grapes in a wine-press, which press one another till they burst; every distinct sense and organ shall be assailed with its own appropriate and most exquisite sufferings."
“Husbands shall see their wives, parents shall see their children tormented before their eyes…the bodies of the damned shall be crowded together in hell like grapes in a wine-press, which press on another till they burst…”
“This temporal fire is but a painted fire in respect of that penetrating and real fire in hell.”
Barrow
“Our bodies will be afflicted continually by the sulphureous flame, piercing the inmost sinews.”
John Bunyan 1688
“Their bodies will be raised from the dead as vessels for the soul—vessels of wrath. The soul will breathe hell-fire, and smoke and coal will seem to hang upon its burning lips, yea the face, eyes, and ears will seem to be chimneys and vents for the flame, and the smoke of the burning , which God, by His breath, hath kindled therein, and upon, them, which will be held one in another, to the great torment and distress of each other.” Works, ii 136.
South 1716
“Every lash which God then gives the sinner shall be with a scorpion, every pain which He inflicts shall be more eager than appetite, more cruel than revenge; every faculty both of soul and body shall have its distinct property, and peculiar torment applied to it, and be directly struck there where it has the quickest, the sharpest, and the tenderest sense of any painful impression…But I shall use no other argument to evince the greatness of their torment but only this, that the devil shall be the instrument of their execution. And surely a mortal enemy will be a dreadful executioner; and the punishment which an infinite justice inflicts by the hands of a implacable malice must needs be intolerable.” Sermons, vii. 143
John Whitaker 1783
“The bodies of the damned will all be salted with fire, so tempered and prepared as to burn the more fiercely, and yet never consume.” Sermon on Death, Judgment, and Eternity.
John Wesley 1791
“Is it not common to say to a child, ‘Put your finger in that candle, can you bear it even for one minute?' How then will you bear Hell-fire? Surely it would be torment enough to have the flesh burnt off from only one finger; what then will it be to have the whole body plunged into a lake of fire, burning with brimstone?” Sermon 73
“The wicked will gnaw their tongues for anguish and pain; they will curse God and look upwards. There the dogs of hell, pride, malice, revenge, rage, horror, despair, continually devour them.” Sermon 15,
“Consider that all these torments of body and soul are without intermission. Be their suffering ever so extreme, be their pain ever so intense, there is no possibility of their fainting away, no, not for one moment … They are all eye, all ear, all sense. Every instant of their duration it may be said of their whole frame that they are ‘Trembling alive all o'er, and smart and agonize at every pore.' And of this duration there is no end … Neither the pain of the body nor of soul is any nearer an end than it was millions of ages ago.” Sermon 73
Charles. Spurgeon
"When thou diest, thy soul will be tormented alone; that will be a hell for it, but at the day of judgment they body will join they soul, and then thou wilt have twin hells, thy soul sweating drops of blood, and thy body suffused with agony. In fire exactly like that which we have on earth thy body will lie, asbestos-like, forever unconsumed, all they veins roads for the feet of pain to travel on, every nerve a string on which the devil shall forever play his diabolical tune of 'Hell's Unutterable Lament.'" Sermon on the Resurrection of the Dead
Signs in front of churches
"How will you spend eternity -- Smoking or Nonsmoking?"
“Turn or Burn!”
And then after hearing all these fantasies of very sick minds - what are we to think of this place? We must rejoice in it!
Peter Lombard, the Master of Sentences
“Therefore the elect shall go forth…to see the torments of the impious, seeing which they will not be grieved, but will be satiated with joy at the sight of the unutterable calamity of the impious .” Sent. Iv 50, ad fin
Martin Luther
When questioned whether the Blessed will not be saddened by seeing their nearest and dearest tortured answers, “Not in the least.”
Gerhard
“…the Blessed will see their friends and relations among the damned as often as they like but without the least of compassion.”
Andrew Welwood
(speaks of the saints as being) “overjoyed in beholding the vengeance of God ,” and their beholding of the smoke of the torment of the wicked as “a passing delectation.”
Samuel Hopkins
“This display of the divine character will be most entertaining to all who love God, will give them the highest and most ineffable pleasure. Should the fire of this eternal punishment cease, it would in a great measure obscure the light of heaven, and put an end to a great part of the happiness and glory of the blessed.”
Bishop Newcomb
“The door of mercy will be shut and all bowels of compassion denied, by God, who will laugh at their destruction; by angels and saints, who will rejoice when they see the vengeance' by their fellow-suffer the devil and the damned rejoicing over their misery.” Catechetical Sermons
Thomas Aquinas
In order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned. . .So that they may be urged the more to praise God. . .The saints in heaven know distinctly all that happens. . .to the damned. [Summa Theologica, Third Part, Supplement, Question XCIV, "Of the Relations of the Saints Towards the Damned," First Article, "Whether the Blessed in Heaven Will See the Sufferings of the Damned. . ."]
“The same fire” (which he decides to be material) “ torments the damned in hell and the just in purgatory…The least pain in purgatory exceeds the greatest in this life.” Summa Theo. Suppl. Qu. 100, acts. 2, n. 3.
Jonathan Edwards
“The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardour of the love and gratitude of the saints of heaven.”
The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. . .Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell. . . I tell you, yea! Such will be his sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish his bliss.
["The Eternity of Hell Torments" (Sermon), April 1739 & Discourses on Various Important Subjects, 1738]
Thomas Boston, Scottish preacher, 1732
"God shall not pity them but laugh at their calamity. The righteous company in heaven shall rejoice in the execution of God's judgment, and shall sing while the smoke riseth up for ever."
Isaac Watts:
During America 's "Great Awakening" the popular hymn writer, Isaac Watts (1674-1748), even set Christians' feet to tapping with this crisp little verse:
What bliss will fill the ransomed souls,
When they in glory dwell,
To see the sinner as he rolls,
In quenchless flames of hell.
Trust me, there is much more where this trash comes from and it continues to go today in churches across the world. For most of us, this is our heritage. This is where we come from. And for many of us - this is what we taught. But now you are beginning to know better. You might want to hold this up before the Lord and possibly spend some time repenting and apologizing to Jesus for ever casting Him in this light. Let Him wash you in the new truth of who you are learning He is. Give yourself the moment to hear Him tell you - I forgive you - you did not know what you were doing.
Lest you think this is not going on today - it is. This is very likely what your very church teaches. There are even those making lots of money selling their testimony of lies and how they spent 23 minutes in hell. And yet, not a lick of it is true. None of it is in the bible. Why do we feel the need to add to the fires of God? What depravity of soul puts such darkness in our minds? Think about this - Revelation has a warning at the end not to add anything to it. Why do you think that warning was necessary?
God was so determined to save the world that He subjected himself to death to bring salvation to mankind. Now - we want to teach that something as simple as me saying, "nope" is going to stop Him from accomplishing His purpose in and through each of us? What pride! What audacity!
If you are not disgusted with what Man has done to God’s image at this point, this thread is likely not for you.
For the rest of you, let’s continue with a real look at the Lake of Fire and how it represents the administration of God’s government and character for the Ages of the Ages. Stay tuned....
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2017 10:42:45 GMT -6
Lake of Fire - God’s View - Three Baptisms
When the 120 were in the upper room waiting to receive the Holy Spirit and the rushing wind started and the flames fell upon their heads, was this the beginning of their endless torment? I mean, fire, am I right!?!? No, because the Fire of God does not operate like the fire of man.
When Moses came upon the bush burning with fire, it must have been a short conversation, because that shrub certainly was destroyed in such fierce heat. Wait….
Exo 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
Exo 3:5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
No, again, because the Fire of God does not operate like the fire of man.
Certainly, when John the Baptist said this,
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
That was a threat! Well, ok, that was a threat, but not one against the spirit, but against the deeds of a generation, and a people, who would reject the plan of God. But the threat is to destroy the works of unrighteousness. The threat was to burn off all that kept one from God. And remember, this:
Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. ….
When God brought Israel to Mount Sinai, at Pentecost, He spoke to them through fire. Let’s take a moment to highlight the pattern:
1. Moses leads Israel out of Egypt on the morrow of Passover.
2. The red sea escape is their baptism of water
3. They reached the far side as the sun rose - resurrection from baptism.
4. They travelled for 40 days and Moses ascended the mountain at Rephidim
5. On the 50th day, the Spirit Fell upon mount Sinai - Pentecost began
6. This began a 40 year time of wondering in the wilderness - a shadow of the pentecost age
1. Jesus leads captives out of sin and death by becoming the passover lamb
2. His burial is a baptism
3. Just as the sun rose Jesus rose from the dead and presented Himself to the Father as the first fruits of the harvest
4. 40 days later, He ascended into a cloud
5. On the 50th day, the spirit came down and began the writing of the Law in the hearts of the 120
6. This began a 40 jubilee time of wondering in the wilderness - the pentecost age
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Deu 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
Deu 4:33 Did ever people hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as thou hast heard, and live?
Deu 4:36 Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: and upon earth he shewed thee his great fire; and thou heardest his words out of the midst of the fire.
Exo 20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.
Exo 20:19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
Exo 20:20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
Exo 20:21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.
Moses tells the people that the fire was to test the people. But the people failed the test and wanted Moses to hear the voice of the Lord for them. We cover this in the Hearing God thread.
We have all grown up in the church afraid of the fire. Just like the Hebrew children were. We have been taught that to hear God is dangerous. But, with Restoration, we see that the fire of God is not something to be afraid of, but to welcome - it tests our faith - and if we submit and walk in what we hear, it purifies us.
The reason the Lord wanted me to share the Moment in Baptism post is because we must all undergo three baptisms. Water, Spirit, and Fire. Even creation itself must undergo these baptisms. Someone recently asked a question in private about these “disasters” of the flood and the upcoming tribulation of fire. Why does God work in this way?
We see this verse:
Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
And we say, see - God wanted to stop striving with Man so he destroyed him. But that is reading this passage from an Annihilation mindset. What if we read this passage from a Restoration standpoint? Try it for yourself before you continue reading - Try to imagine that God is going to restore all creation back into himself - then read this verse again.
Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
Do you see it? God is making a statement of fact - My spirit shall not always strive with man indefinitely. This is a promise not a threat. Some day, God will be at peace with Man! Sometime there will be no more enemies. No more struggle between God and Man. He then tells us how long it will be until he starts this process of removing the separation - 120 years / 120 Jubilees.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
By the way - we are currently in the 120th jubilee!
Oh and, there is that number again. 120 - The number that represents the outpouring of the spirit of God. We see it here with the earth’s baptism of water. We see it in the upper room with the earth's beginning of a baptism of the spirit and the beginning of the baptism of fire.
We see it when God poured out his spirit on Ninevah and "saved" 120,000. We see it as well when the Spirit of God filled Solomon’s temple:
2Ch 5:11 And it came to pass, when the priests were come out of the holy place: (for all the priests that were present were sanctified, and did not then wait by course:
2Ch 5:12 Also the Levites which were the singers, all of them of Asaph, of Heman, of Jeduthun, with their sons and their brethren, being arrayed in white linen, having cymbals and psalteries and harps, stood at the east end of the altar, and with them an hundred and twenty priests sounding with trumpets:)
2Ch 5:13 It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the LORD;
2Ch 5:14 So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God.
The baptisms are necessary to accomplish the goal of God’s spirit not striving with Man’s spirit.
Hab 2:13 Behold, is it not of the LORD of hosts that the people shall labour in the very fire, and the people shall weary themselves for very vanity?
Hab 2:14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Isa 26:4 Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength:
Isa 26:5 For he bringeth down them that dwell on high; the lofty city, he layeth it low; he layeth it low, even to the ground; he bringeth it even to the dust.
Isa 26:6 The foot shall tread it down, even the feet of the poor, and the steps of the needy.
Isa 26:7 The way of the just is uprightness: thou, most upright, dost weigh the path of the just.
Isa 26:8 Yea, in the way of thy judgments, O LORD, have we waited for thee; the desire of our soul is to thy name, and to the remembrance of thee.
Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
We have no doubt that the full baptism of fire is coming and a full baptism of spirit is coming as well. We shall see, each of us must endure the fire of God. The question is - at what point will each of us say Amen to the fire instead of resisting it?
Next I will dive into the nature and duration of the fire. We will see the irony that the water, the spirit, the fire - they are all from the same source. They are effectively, though not quite, the same thing.
Note: There are current events happening in the world right now that may force us to take a slight detour in order to talk about them and how they are related to Restoration and Eschatology. Of course, I am speaking of the situation with Jerusalem. The problem is that my understanding on what is taking place is considerably different than that of the typical prophecy student. At some point we will need to cross this bridge, but I want to avoid it a little longer. However, God's time table will not be stopped.
Friends, the time to come into an understanding of Restoration is growing short - you will all be needed to shepherd the flock that shortly will be dispersing. Please give whatever attention the Lord leads you to this understanding. Ask questions, voice concerns, plead before the Lord for Him to confirm in your understanding what some of you are beginning to believe in your hearts. Time is short and the shepherds will soon be falling - The Lord is calling some of you to shepherd the flock when this happens. Be not deceived into believing that you will be leaving at the end of the year. (Zech 11, Hag 2:6-9). For some of you this will be disappointing. For others, you already knew this in your spirit and you might already understand what it means.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2017 12:42:16 GMT -6
Lake of Fire - God’s View - What is this fire?
Who Encounters Fire? - Short answer: all of us
Luk 12:49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
Luk 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
Jesus is anxious to finish the task, but there is a process.
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
We want to be refined by God.
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
ET folks have a problem here - if this person is saved, why are they undergoing fire? If they are not saved, why will they be saved by fire? More on this later when we deal with the harvests. These people are saved, by the way.
Mar 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
Mar 9:50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.
Everyone will be salted with fire. The question is, how do we deal when salted? Do we yearn for the fire? Do we wish to walk in the very character of God with His law fully written on our hearts? Do we wish that everything we desire is what God desires? Do we say amen all the day long?
Now - with this in mind let’s look at the various ways the Lake of Fire has been portrayed:
Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
Rev 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
Rev 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
Rev 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
Rev 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
Rev 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
Joh 4:11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
Joh 4:12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
Joh 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
1Ki 7:23 And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.
Solomon’s temple had lavers called the molten sea. Although, it is only recorded that water was used in this temple lavers - they were designed to hold molten gold, which when melted and refined to absolute purity is as clear as crystal.
Would it surprise you to hear that these are all the same picture?
The fiery stream comes from the burning throne and flows down the main street. On either side of the street is The Tree of Life. The tree’s fruit feed the righteous, the leaves heal the nations. This same water quenches thirst and yet, cannot itself be quenched. It is life to the Righteous and Death to the sinner, but only through death do we have life everlasting. It is the second death - the death of self. This is a death that all believers have been walking out their entire Christian walk - their Pentecost experience. Then again - many believers are not allowing the fire to kill today. But God is not mocked, all will be presented pure. Some through the barley harvest, some though the wheat harvest, and some through the grape harvest. This fiery, living, water of God flows into a crystal sea mixed with fire as the impurities are burned off. This process will continue throughout the Ages of the Ages until that great Age of the Ages - the Jubilee of Jubilees.
But be not confused - it is not administered by the devil. He is not in charge of this process. No, it is administered by God’s holy ones and the Lamb Himself as we see here:
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
We see here that the lamb is present - why not the lion? Why not the king of kings? Why not the Lord of Lords? Because this is the work of the lamb! Who takes away the sins of the world!! And too, we see that rest cannot be obtained until they die to themselves - until they learn the righteousness of God. Does this mean they are not sleeping? It means they are not resting in God. We cannot achieve true rest in God until we have fully submitted ourselves to His fiery law.
Until we are one with God, we have no rest.
Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Will this be painful? I should think so. But it is not torture and it is not the kind of pain that we associate with pain in this physical realm. It is death to self. Even in today’s life we burn with desire that must be conquered through the flames of Pentecost. And to what end?
Fire prepares us to administer the law of God:
In Deuteronomy 33 we have the record of the blessing Moses said upon Israel before he died:
Deu 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
Deu 33:3 Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.
Here see that the fiery Law is in God’s hands and so are the saints. This is what the picture looks like when God Law is ruling and being administered by the people of God. It is all rooted in the Love and Holiness of God.
As the saints submit to the fire they become one with God until they become joint heirs with the Word of God.
Isa 33:10 Now will I rise, saith the LORD; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.
Isa 33:11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.
Isa 33:12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.
Isa 33:13 Hear, ye that are far off, what I have done; and, ye that are near, acknowledge my might.
Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Answer?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
Isa 33:16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
You see - there is a point to ruling and reigning with Christ in the Age to Come and during the Ages of Ages - and it is not to sit on the seashore and play harps.
No, my friend - it is to administer the very lake of fire that brings about life. But this is not a task that will be entrusted to just everyone. A few weeks back, in the Hearing God thread, Cage asked me what it meant to “walk out our Pentecost experience with an Eye toward Tabernacles.”
I ended that thread without answering that question. But as we begin to study the three harvests - this will come up again.
Ironically, as we read what the corrupt minds of preachers over the years have said as to our rejoicing when we see those suffering in hell. They prophesy of what they do not know: For we shall rejoice knowing that the very work of the fire will reconcile all back into the Father from whence all creation came.
This is not talking about earthly Jerusalem:
Isa 4:2 In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.
Isa 4:3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
Isa 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.
Isa 4:5 And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence.
Isa 4:6 And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the daytime from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and for a covert from storm and from rain.
Question: Do I need to bounce back and cover the law? I am assuming some of you are uncomfortable with my constant speaking of the law. Remember, the written law of God was a small physical reflection of a grand spiritual character. We are not under the law of the letter - but we shall never leave the law of the spirit for it is the very essence of who God is. This is why we see things like this:
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
This word, iniquity, is actually the word lawlessness. These folks have done much in the name of God, but they did not do what they heard from the Father - they did not walk in faith and allow the fiery word of God to guide their works and therefore their works are counted as sin - lawlessness. Whatever is not of faith is sin - even when it seems like a good work, by a believer.
Remember, we can have conversations like this now because we are not dealing with loss of salvation or going to Endless Hell.
I will conclude this post now, but will leave you with a few other scriptures that speak of the refining fire of God.
God’s fire Refines:
Deu 4:20 But the LORD hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day.
Isa 48:10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.
Eze 22:17 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 22:18 Son of man, the house of Israel is to me become dross: all they are brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, in the midst of the furnace; they are even the dross of silver.
Eze 22:19 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye are all become dross, behold, therefore I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem.
Eze 22:20 As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and melt you.
Eze 22:21 Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst thereof.
Eze 22:22 As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the LORD have poured out my fury upon you.
Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Exo 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
Exo 24:17 And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.
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Post by cwood85 on Dec 10, 2017 17:58:11 GMT -6
Question that I have been wondering for a while now. I went into scriptures and counted how many times I found this saying in verses (it was a lot of that phrase that I could find) I will reference scripture if anyone would like. "In or on the last day" or "that last day" or "the day of the Lord," I have noticed many attribute this to the tribulation. Why is that? When on one hand the tribulation is considered the unfulfilled WEEK of seven years of Daniels 70th week, and specified as a WEEK of 7 years, why when scripture says the "day or the Lord, the last day, and etc are these two considered the same? I don't mean this to be cheeky. While I see the timeframe being around the same or similar, I don't think they mean the same thing and have always had this nagging that they don't or there is something else going on there and two and two are just not being put together. Particularly when Paul references to our gathering together with the Lord on THAT LAST DAY. If anyone wants to chime in on this please do. @silentknight has my brain really analyzing and picking things apart like I never have and asking for a lot more guidance from the Holy Spirit. Also I know you noted due to world events SK, that you may need to detour more into end time study and how it relates to restoration. Ready when you are  Especially if Turkey breaks it alliance with Israel as they are now referring to them as a terrorist state... Things are moving very fast. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Dec 10, 2017 18:18:59 GMT -6
I pay attention when I see "In that day" but from quick memory, I dont recall the word "last". Which verses have in the Last Day? But to sit with you at the SK table, I am right with you sister! Phrases mean something. Like the simple word "good" or the use of the word Amen. And, to add, we should be paying attention to the word Age. And style too. Why does John have to write the exact definition of the 144,000 witnesses? He says it, and they are from the 12 tribes, but then there is this daunting list repeating 12000 from this tribe 12000 from that tribe. There is a reason. LOVNG EVERY MINUTE OF IT!
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Post by cwood85 on Dec 10, 2017 18:33:22 GMT -6
I have many of them marked and I will list them later this evening in both the NASB and KJV versions |
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Especially if Turkey breaks it alliance with Israel as they are now referring to them as a terrorist state... Things are moving very fast.