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Post by rt on Nov 4, 2017 8:33:26 GMT -6
For years I have heard the various arguments about the pre, mid, and post raptures; interestingly, all three exist. The pre-tribulation rapture is for the 144,000 their families and others who are invited by God the Father to go on an exodus. The mid-tribulation rapture is where the 144,000 gather the saints that are scattered throughout the earth to Zion, and the post-tribulation rapture is where Lord Jesus comes to the earth and all those gathered to Zion as well as those in Jerusalem are taken off the earth to the city of New Jerusalem. Sometime later, the city of New Jerusalem descends to the earth and then the planet is repopulated. It is similar to Noah being taken upon the waters and then the ark descended to the earth and the planet repopulated. That's an interesting theory, not one I have ever heard before, perhaps you could start a thread of your own and explain it further. I would be very interested in understanding how you see this theory reflected in scripture. |
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Post by rt on Nov 4, 2017 21:27:57 GMT -6
rt, Thank you for an opportunity to talk to you. I have also worked on a commentary on the Book of Revelation. The angle that I have taken is to understand the metaphors in the verses. Recently, I was diverted from my work in Chapter 12 when a close friend died. I was convinced that he was going to live through the seven years of tribulation and was shocked when he passed over. This led me to revisit my work on Chapter 6 and it was then that I came to understand that Verse 6:15 pertains to the Passover. I had already known about the Passover but I did not know that it was stated in Verse 6:15. Following that discovery I was forced to reexamine 6:12 that seems to be referencing the end of the three woes with its earthquake reference. However, Chapter 6 has several diversions first beginning with the four horsemen followed by the vague reference in Verse 6:9 to the fifth person and then the massively camouflaged reference to the sixth angel in Verses 6:12-17. Once I understood that the sixth angel pertains to those who stand through the seven years (the 144,000) then it became clear that the fifth angel that is one of the four horns in Verse 9:13, instructs the sixth angel that is the 144,000, to do their work. Their work is to put down the beast (that took over the earth) as stated in Verses 19:19-21. I turned to Verse 9:4 and wondered why if the 144,000 were protected while on the exodus (v. 12:14); that is, why did the people of the earth look to find Death (v. 9:6). That is, why did the Christian people as a whole look for Elijah. I had previously identified Death in Verse 6:8 as Elijah. Anyway, common since dictates that if a person wishes to commit suicide then they have a multitude of methods of doing so. Thus, Death in Verse 9:6 is Elijah and the people are looking for him because scripture tells us in the open (Mal. 4:5) that he will come prior to the beginning of the tribulation. Since he did not come, so the people think, then they are looking for him as stated in Verse 9:6. When did he come? It is when the tribulation is about ready to begin. Right now! He along with others are behind our interest in this work. He is turning our hearts and minds to our fathers and and to our children. That is, the work of the 144,000 pertains to a responsibility to the fathers and the children. Our fathers because Lord Jesus is ready to bring about their Resurrection, and our children because we are taking them into the millennial reign of the Savior to live upon the earth. Thus, it is critical that the army of God is ready to go on the exodus. And who are they? They are the saints who are ready (Matt. 22:9) that search the the scriptures for the coming of Lord Jesus (v. 16:15). They have the drive to find him and the drive to understand when he will come. This drive is a gift from God and Elijah is not only responsible to us for that, he also participates in taking us on the exodus when the time comes. You're welcome, though it might be better if you start your own thread, that way it can be dedicated to your own theory. However just going by what you have posted here I can see that you see much of what John describes as metaphorical. That is one means of interpretation, one that I do not myself adhere to. Scripture does use metaphor and allegory often, and there are times when such are not explicitly explained for us and we have to use our powers of reason and deduction based on similar metaphors and allegory that is explained to us in other places found in scripture. Other times scripture clearly explains itself and tells us what the metaphor means. I do not believe that is the case with the passages you point to here though, I do not see them as metaphorical but take a more literal approach. You say you identify death in verse 6:8 as Elijah, the passage does not make this claim, that is something you deduced on your own. I would caution against this approach. This method leaves the door wide open for folks to ascribe whatever meaning they choose. I am not trying to put you down here, so please do not misunderstand my intention. I am also not claiming that I necessarily have all things pinned down myself either. There is a lot of grey area when it comes to the interpretation of the prophetic word. But we must not ascribe meaning that is not implied or given by scripture itself, especially when there is nothing scriptural that backs up what we claim. To say that death is Elijah is in no way supported by scripture. Christians (believers in Christ) do not look for Elijah, the Jews before and during Christ's time did and perhaps still do, but that is not tied to those who seek death in Revelation 9:6. I myself do not have a clear understanding of what it means to seek death and not find it, only in this respect, which is that the events of that time will be so awful that people will want death to relieve them of their misery but for whatever reason they will be compelled to live through it, perhaps by their own will or supernaturally in some way. They are not seeking Elijah, the word in the Greek means death as in dying. You also say that the work of the 144,000 " pertains to a responsibility to the fathers and the children. Our fathers because Lord Jesus is ready to bring about their Resurrection, and our children because we are taking them into the millennial reign of the Savior to live upon the earth. " The scripture never tells us anywhere what the work of the 144,000 is, we can guess what they might do, what we know is that they bear the seal of God on their foreheads, they are Jewish, they are chaste, they follow Jesus and have been purchased as first fruits to God and to the Lamb. That is what we know, what they do is open to speculation. If I were to guess, I would think that their job would be to witness to their fellow Jews concerning Christ who they follow. Interpreting the book of Revelation really begins with what foundation you base your interpretation on, for instance if you believe most of the book is allegorical and metaphorical, that becomes the basis for your interpretation. If so, then you would not be alone, many see it that way. Or if your foundation is Amillennial, post tribulational (rapture) you will build theories upon those foundations. I happen to believe that the prophetic word is dispensationsal and that it does support a pre 70th week rapture as I have spelled out here in this thread. Again I would strongly suggest you begin your own thread if you wish to carry on the discussion further, so as not to derail this one. Please don't think that I am judging you in any way, scripture can be difficult to understand and especially prophecy. We are all seeking to gain understanding. |
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Post by boraddict on Nov 4, 2017 23:58:26 GMT -6
I learned about chasmi on the internet. These are literary structures that are used by writers like Shakespeare and President Kennedy in which they said "to be or not to be" and "its not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country." Afterwards, I read somewhere that the prophets used this literary tool; and so I began applying it to the Book of Revelation in an attempt to unlock the meaning of the verses.
For instance, it was through this and other literary devices that I came to understand that Rev. 12:12 is the ending of the three woes as referenced in 8:13. John summarized the three woes beginning with Verses 12:1-6 that includes the exodus in Verse 12:6. The second woe is in Verses 12:7-11, and the third woe is in Verse 12:12.
Pertaining to Verses 12:1-11, Verse 12:12 states "Therefore rejoice ye heavens and ye that dwell in them." That is, because of the events as described in Verses 12:1-11, the saints of God should rejoice. The first woe was upon the church (vv. 12:1-5, 13:7), and the second woe was upon the beast in which the army of God has been victorious (vv. 12:7-11, 19:19-21). The language in Verses 12:1-11 are couched in early church and pre earth terminology.
The third woe in Verse 12:12 states "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you having great wrath because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." This woe is stated in several places in the Book of Revelation and in Verse 16:2 the vial is being poured upon the earth and Verse 16:3 the vial is being poured upon the sea.
While it is true that this method of analysis does not give a literal translation, it does provide a high degree of accuracy in understanding the Book of Revelation.
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Post by whatif on Nov 5, 2017 0:43:00 GMT -6
Welcome to the forum, boraddict! I see you are a new member! May I ask you what you mean when you say the first woe was upon the church? I'd always considered that to be the event of the 5th Trumpet Judgment when the Abyss is opened in Revelation 9:1-12. I'm also curious as to what you mean by "pre-earth terminology."
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Post by boraddict on Nov 5, 2017 4:08:55 GMT -6
Hi whatif, thank you for your reply. Yes, you are correct. Revelation 9:1-12 provides an account of the first woe as an Abyss that begins the seven years of tribulation. It is here that the beast takes control of the earth as described in Chapter 13.
Perhaps the easiest way to explain the connection is to separate the book into two parts. The first part is Chapters 1 thru 11, and the second part is Chapters 12 thru 22. Thus the story is told once in the first half of the book, and then again in the second half of the book.
In both halves of the book there are two visions. The first is the vision of the Savior in Chapter 1 and the second begins with the vision of the resurrection in Chapter 4 and ends with the Savior at the Mt of Olivet and that is denoted by the earthquake in Chapter 11. We know this because in the end the Savior treads the wine press alone as referenced in Chapter 14 Verse 20. Thus, Chapters 4 through 11 are in chronological order.
Chapter 4 begins with the resurrection, Chapter 5 shows that only Lord Jesus can open the resurrection, and Chapter 6 shows that each of the six thousand years of man upon the earth are included in the resurrection.
Secondly, Chapter six specifies one individual from each of the one thousand year periods as having been translated. There may have been others translated but only six are given. The first is Enoch (v. 6:2), the second is Noah (v. 6:4). Noah took peace from the earth when the ark was lifted upon the waters of the great flood. The third is Moses the great lawgiver. The fourth is Elijah. Elijah was followed by Elisha. The fifth is John himself. John states as much in the Gospel According to John Verse 21:23, that he will not die until after the Savior returns to the earth.
The sixth is able to stand through the tribulation as referenced in Verse 6:17 "Who shall be able to stand." The following Chapter (chapter 7), shows that the 144,000 are able to stand after they have been sealed.
Then in Verse 9:4 the 144,000 can not be hurt. Thus they are standing in the first woe.
The second half of the book is out of order. The first vision should begin in Chapter 12 but it does not; it begins in Chapter 17. Thus, Chapter 17 that begins with the vision of the woman upon the beast is interrupted at Verse 17:7. This interruption shows that Chapter 13 was taken from Chapter 17. Thus, the order of the verses are Verse 17:1-6, and then Chapter 13. The vision is then interrupted by the angel that explains the vision up to this point (vv. 17:7-18). Following his explanation he becomes a character in the vision and this begins at Chapter 18. It shows that after the beast arises then the angel comes to the earth. It is then at Verse 18:4 that Lord Jesus calls to his people to come out of Babylon. That is, the first woe was the rise of the beast in Chapter 13 that corresponds directly to Verses 9:1-12 in the first half of the book. Following the rise of the beast, the 144,000 go on the exodus as stated in Verse 12:14. Thus, in Verse 9:4 the 144,000 are on the exodus.
However, prior to John expanding upon the exodus (Verses 12:13-17) that follows Chapter 18, he gives a quick summary of the three woes in Verses 12:1-12. The first woe is couched in language that ties to the time that the church was persecuted 2,000 years ago (vv. 12:1-6). The exodus is included at verse 6; thus, Verses 12:1-5 are the first woe during which the exodus take place as stated in Verse 12:6. The second woe is couched in language pertaining to the war in heaven. This is the pre earth terminology that I mentioned but better stated it is a war in heaven terminology. This war took place prior to man living upon this earth and possibly before this earth was ever created. However, the war in heaven in Verses 12:7-11 is the second woe that is the war (vv. 19:11-21) that puts down the beast that caused the first woe. In other words, Verses 12:7-11 are about the war that is stated in Verses 19:11-21 and not about the war that took place before the creation of man upon this earth.
The first vision in the second half of the book continues from Chapter 12 to 19, 15, 16, and last of all 14. Chapter 14 is a reminiscing Chapter. The second vision in the second half of the book and begins at Verse 21:9.
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Post by Natalie on Nov 5, 2017 7:39:08 GMT -6
I hope it's alright...I moved the two posts from the Revised Trib thread to this post as it all kind of goes together.
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Post by boraddict on Nov 5, 2017 9:01:08 GMT -6
Thank you Natalie.
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Post by whatif on Nov 5, 2017 10:27:30 GMT -6
I hope it's alright...I moved the two posts from the Revised Trib thread to this post as it all kind of goes together. Yes, I think that was a great idea, Natalie! |
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Post by whatif on Nov 5, 2017 10:43:21 GMT -6
Well, I can't say that I agree with your speculation, boraddict, but I appreciate that you've taken the time to share your thoughts with us.
By the way, I notice your post count is at 8, but I can't find your original 5 posts. Have you deleted them for some reason? If so, I would ask that you don't do so in future unless there was an accidental multiple posting or other difficulty, as it is helpful to keep full conversations intact for everyone to understand. If you wish to edit your posts, simply click on "Edit" and you can change your wording without deleting an entire post.
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Post by boraddict on Nov 5, 2017 13:49:56 GMT -6
Well, I can't say that I agree with your speculation, boraddict, but I appreciate that you've taken the time to share your thoughts with us. By the way, I notice your post count is at 8, but I can't find your original 5 posts. Have you deleted them for some reason? If so, I would ask that you don't do so in future unless there was an accidental multiple posting or other difficulty, as it is helpful to keep full conversations intact for everyone to understand. If you wish to edit your posts, simply click on "Edit" and you can change your wording without deleting an entire post. Thanks whatif, I am starting to learn the ropes. I deleted two posts when I realized that I had placed them inappropriately in rt's thread conversation. Those two posts are included in his comments above. I deleted a third post in another thread for the same reason. Also, there were two posts that I messed up in the posting process. So those two did not actually "post" to the best of my knowledge. Thus, as I recall, I deleted three and two others did not post. Nevertheless, in the future I will not delete any of my posts for the reasons that you have stated. Thanks for allowing me to share my work on the Book of Revelation. I realize that my work is unconventional; however, for me it produces results. In the beginning I had contacted a friend who has a PhD in theology and asked for his chiasmus work. He told me that only the two halves of the book existed and nothing more. Consequently, I set out to find the chiasmus for the Book of Revelation myself. I went down hundreds of scripture linking trails thinking that each one would produce results only to find in come cases that I had an error in my analysis and in other cases that I had pursued a link that did not answer a given question. In the end I found the chiasmus for the Book of Revelation. On another note, I would like to share my analysis of the Verse 13:18 riddle that pertains to the beast of Verse 13:11. (King James Version). The riddle begins with "Here is wisdom" and this links to Verse 17:9 that states "Here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sitteth." The seven mountains are seven kingdoms, five of which are given in Daniel Verses 2:32-43. They are fallen as stated in Verse 17:10. These are Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and the nations of Europe. I found these when I realized that the Book of Daniel begins with the captivity of Judah (Dan. 1:1), and consequently each kingdom in succession presides over Judah. Thus, Babylon conquered Judah, then Babylon was conquered by Persia that was conquered by Greece that was conquered by Rome. When Rome fell, Judah was scattered throughout the European nations. The European nations were conquered in WWII giving rise to the United Nations as the presiding authority over Judah. Thus the United Nations is the sixth kingdom to preside over Judah. This kingdom gave Judah the nation state of Israel in 1948. Since in Rev. 17:11 the beast "is of the seven," and the United Nations that is the sixth kingdom to preside over Judah, and there is a seventh kingdom that will also preside over Judah, then all seven kingdoms will have fallen in turn prior to the rise of the beast in Verse 13:1. That is, when the beast arises in Verse 13:1, all seven kingdoms will have fallen. Thus, the word "wisdom" in Verse 17:9 pertains to the seven ancestors of the Verse 13:1 beast, and the word "wisdom" in Verse 13:18 pertains to the ancestors of the Verse 13:11 beast. Thus, the Verse 13:11 beast has 665 ancestors as stated in the Verse 13:18 riddle. In other words, counting the number of the (Verse 13:11) beast is similar to counting the number of the Verse 13:1 beast. The Verse 13:11 beast is number 666 and the Verse 13:1 beast is 8 (v. 17:11). With this information it is simply a matter of counting the ancestors. I should probably stop here because I do not want to offend anyone. I will say however, that Verse 13:11 tells us he is a religious leader. |
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Post by whatif on Nov 5, 2017 16:08:22 GMT -6
By the way, I notice your post count is at 8, but I can't find your original 5 posts. Have you deleted them for some reason? If so, I would ask that you don't do so in future unless there was an accidental multiple posting or other difficulty, as it is helpful to keep full conversations intact for everyone to understand. If you wish to edit your posts, simply click on "Edit" and you can change your wording without deleting an entire post. Thanks whatif, I am starting to learn the ropes. No problem, boraddict! Looks like you're getting things figured out all right.
Since you are interested in the chiastic structure of the book of Revelation, you might also like to check out the thread by socalexile at the following link: unsealed.boards.net/thread/468/chiastic-structure-revelation?page=1&scrollTo=4842
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Post by boraddict on Nov 5, 2017 17:36:27 GMT -6
Now were talking! Socalexile's work is simply beautiful! |
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Post by whatif on Nov 5, 2017 17:44:06 GMT -6
I'm so glad it's helpful, boraddict!
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